The Troops question

[Iron Cookie]

I run 6x10 cultists for deep strike screening, yes they die but thats what i expect. They fill my 6 troop for the Brigade detachment so i can spend my points on stuff that will do damage.

[Trevak Dal]

I prefer the power level system, where every unit can be taken to its fullest potential.

Yeah and it can be faster and encourage WYSIWYG if done properly. I love it, that said I went through my index datasheets (and will likely do the same with my codexes when I get them) and wrote down the unit and model costs and basic point costs for my stuff just to be easier on me with less page flipping.

 

I know when I start playing that people will prefer pointed games (on average). I've mostly played with friends but none of them have shown interest in 8th.

 

 

My autocannons are the chaos heavybolters with the reaper autocannon barrels from the chaos terminator kit pinned on, my heavy Bolters are the loyalist plastic devestator heavy Bolters (while my loyalist army will use the b@c heavy Bolters)

 

I used cultists in 7th in maxed out helcults as Hero Neuterers. That whole tactic is kinda blocked in a couple of different ways now (able to withdraw from combat, moral system in general etc).

 

But minimum squad sizes are effectively immune to moral because either they all will die, or they will pass. Kind of an oversight maybe...but it gives me the painting opportunity to portray my cultists as semi organized fire teams in arrays of 10 man chalks backed up by 5 man Astartes squads.

 

I've had fun with a couple of scenarios where I start out with 2500 points and then roll dice for each model in a given unit and if it's a 5+ I put those models on the table and try to win (the other side had 3+ for each model).

Edited August 28, 2017 by Trevak Dal

[the jeske]

Power levels are all fine and dandy when your playing marine on marine games. It stops being fun, when your factions has no or little upgrades[which effectivlly means armies that do have such options are getting them for free], it also generates an unhealthy game space for new players. Because while I may have enough[or cast them] thunder hammers for 14 paladins and a counts as voldus, a new GK player will not. This makes the vet vs new player gap too wide to bare for new players, or makes them recast a ton of stuff. And when a vet casts something after buying X "real" models, it is way different from a noob doing the same. Because the new player often starts counting how much GW stuff costs, and if he is recasting some stuff, why not recast everything and cut the cost even more. this devolves really fast, and is in general unhealthy for the game.

[Sception]

It's really not as bad as all that.  Power levels don't give upgrades for free so much as they factor the price of the most attractive upgrades into the base cost of the unit.  For example, at the approximate going exchange rate of 20 points per power level, 14 power for for 5 terminators is a heck of a lot more than a unit of termies with their default equipment would cost.  The cost of combi plasmas and even a few fists is already factored in.

 

The main issue with Power Rating isn't "units with lots of upgrades vs. units with no access to upgrades," it's "units with lots of upgrades vs. units that can take upgrades, but didn't."  What if you like the look of regular combi bolters on your terminators?  You had the option to upgrade, the power rating assigned to the unit assumed that you would, but you didn't, so you're taking a handicap in a way that someone running units without variant cost upgrades just isn't.

 

All in all, despite initially being enamored with Power Ratings, and still being quite happy to play games with them, I've found I still prefer points costs.  Though that might be because their more fiddly and fine tuned, and I spend more time tinkering with army lists than actually playing them.

Edited August 29, 2017 by malisteen

[Khornestar]

I don't much care about WYSIWYG, as I like to try everything out at some point or another and I'm not about to miss out on that because my dudes are holding melta guns instead of flamers. I realize not everyone plays that way, but personally it's no big deal. I offer my opponents the same leeway.

[Azekai]

I think WYSIWYG is sort of assumed for power level games, since the assorted contents of the kits tend to stop people from equipping their squads hyper-optimally. You aren't supposed to play with power levels so you get a bunch of free equipment; rather, the option exists to quickly and easily play with what you have without agonizing over every jot and tittle.

[the jeske]

 

It's really not as bad as all that.  Power levels don't give upgrades for free so much as they factor the price of the most attractive upgrades into the base cost of the unit.  For example, at the approximate going exchange rate of 20 points per power level, 14 power for for 5 terminators is a heck of a lot more than a unit of termies with their default equipment would cost.  The cost of combi plasmas and even a few fists is already factored in.

Again the WYSIWYG aspect is an important[social] thing, but the imbalance comes from how index and codex are structured. that is why I said that marine vs marine is probabaly the most balances as far as power points goes. But take an army like tyranids, there are no squad upgrades or stuff you can load up on your dudes to an comperable ratio of what marines/ad mecha can do. just think about it a unit of guants[naked not maxed out] is 3 points, a unit of stealers the same is 4, and the cut favors taking big units. So if we would take[and why wouldn't we] max guant units we are looking at 9pts per each 30 dudes.  3xtimes the bodies as the stealers at 2/3 the points. Points to work require, I don't know, playing narrative with some match played rules[psychic powers and summoning mostly] and more or less writing both the army lists at the same time with given scenario in mind. Otherwise what you get is an extrem version of what match play has. IG are spaming their storm troopers and conscripts etc. Now am not against spaming, and am not against good lsits[in fact am all for as many as possible good lists], but power points create a vacume, the sort tau have in matched play. It divides armies in to those with upgrade options and those without it. And even that we are only pondering here in a full optimized situation. Because what happens if someone is crazy and decides he wants to use something like csm in a csm list? Then they are proactivlly punished for doing so [on top of unit X being worse/bad].

[Panzer]

I'm with Jeske on this one. The points system isn't perfect but the power system is imbalanced by design which is even worse. It heavily favours units that have actual wargear options and there it favours those who take the most expensive/strongest combination of it.

 

I don't get how anybody can think a system where a unit of Bolter Marines costing as much as a unit of Marines with a Lascannon, a Plasmagun and a fully equipped Sergeant is even remotely fair.

 

And the "quick to write" argument? Well I'm pretty quick writing a list with the points system as well and then there's of course things like Battlescribe and soon-ish GWs own list building app for 40k which makes the time needed to write a list a non-issue.

 

WYSIWYG is more of a gentlemans agreement. It makes it easier to spot what each unit can do without having to ask all the time and overall makes the game more fun. Kinda like having your army painted. It has nothing to do with either points or power.

[Azekai]

Not gonna bother to respond to most of this, since I know points are more precise than power levels... but sometimes that precision isn't necessary or desired.

And the "quick to write" argument? Well I'm pretty quick writing a list with the points system as well and then there's of course things like Battlescribe and soon-ish GWs own list building app for 40k which makes the time needed to write a list a non-issue.

Unless you are using battlescribe or some other extra-GW method of list writing, it is not easy to use points, especially if you are incorporating FAQ altered costs. The more casual players I play alongside tend to have to flip around their books like mad, and I have edited documents to include points costs with datasheets. It is as if the Indexes and Codexes were designed in a lab to waste your time switching back and forth between units and their point cost lists. 

[Sception]

You are charged for the upgrades, you don't get them for free. What you lose is the option to not pay for upgrades that you have the uption to take. Units with upgrades don't get a big advantage over units without any options for them, but they do get an advantage iver units that have expenaive options but choose not to take them.

 

Again, look at terminators. Under the power system 5 termies costs the equivalent of 280 points. With swords and cbolters, the'd have cost 185. With combi plasma and axes, only 255. the power rating isn't based on the cost of 5 naked termies, its based on the cost of five all with combi plas plus a couple fists plus an icon. Basically something close to a maxed out squad.

 

Or chaos marines. 5 power rating is equivalent to 100 points, when 5 naked chaos marines is only 65. The power rating asdumes you're taking a special or heavy weapon, with points left over for the champion to have something, too.

 

Compare to something like oblits. They have no options, so is power rating screwing them over? At 10 power, they're getting charged the equivalent of 200 points, when normally the squad would be 195.

 

So no, fully kitted squads do not get a big discount. They aren't getting their upgrades for free. What is happening is that the unit is charged for their upgrade options whether they take them or not. That sucks if you like running units without stuff, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for that because upgrades are cool, and the only reason not to take them normally is to gain a mechanical edge by shaving points. If one system incentivizes taking cool gear and one incentivizes boring naked squads, that's a mark in the former's favor

 

 

Where the system does begin to break down is tbe lack of granularity in cheap units. With their more expensive options, 10 cultists are around 50 points, but that doesn't divide evenly by 20. So should cultists be 2 power per 10 dudes (equivalent to 40 points), or 3 power (equivalent to 60 points)? The writers opted to round up, because they specifically /don't/ want to hand out free uogrades under the power system, but the unit ends up somewhat overpriced as a result. Would have worked out if they let the batch sizes vary more, but i guess '3 power for 13 cultists' was judged to be too awkward.

 

I do agree that the points system is better overall, if far from perfect. Certainly more granular, able to handle cheaper models better, or different squad sizes.

 

I just can't let the idea that units get upgrades for free under the power rating system pass, because that isn't what's happening. You pay for the upgrades, that cost is factored into the power rating. What you lose is the option to shave points by not taking those options.

Edited August 29, 2017 by malisteen

[Panzer]

You are charged for the upgrades, you don't get them for free. What you lose is the option to not pay for upgrades that you have the uption to take. Units with upgrades don't get a big advantage over units without any options for them, but they do get an advantage iver units that have expenaive options but choose not to take them.

 

I didn't really say you get them for free but it's also wrong ot say that you get charged for them. You get a rough average of what a unit considering all upgrades could cost. So you pay more for no/cheap upgrades and less for the expensive ones. Ultimately resulting in what I said. You get an advantage if you have lots of options and punished against other players if you don't use everything you can.

[Commissar K.]

The simple design approach of Power Points versus matched play points is very simple, PP is less specific more allround, easy to come into but as a result the balance design is less specific. Now this is still a dice game and because of that anyone can still have a good game with less specific balance. To me the difference is there but it isn't too big.

The prime reason why I prefer matched play points though is because Ive had several editions passing me to get used to it. So for me the list design costs a bit more time to get into your system but once it's in your system it becomes a second nature. In addition the hobby in itself allready costs me enough of time so thinkering with lists is not something I dislike.

Going back to Troops though, I guess most has been said about it. One thing Id like to mention for non-cult again is that going for small pockets of CSM will still not be a bad plan, prime reason being that a lot of non-cult Legions have some fantastic Traits and Stratagems which you want to use with some serious Elites and Heavies. It's just that cult Troops are indeed part of the serious Elites aswell but for list constructions in itself this is not a massive difference. What Im saying with that is that regular dudes with Bolters do matter. It's easy to dismiss it but in many cases that's still a silver of previous editions thinking.

Cheers,

[Trevak Dal]

Hmm, if you took the unupgraded terminators, then you have a unit with a large (10-20 shots) of s4 for 5 guys, you would have a nice bit of burst damage you could try and drop near something that needs to take wounds. It's like taking Burst cannons on crisis suits (just one...) When you play tau-you got damn plenty s5 shooting, spending elite points for more is...frivolous and asking for trouble.

[Panzer]

T'au Crisis Suits are actually a pretty good example of this.

A unit of Crisis with each 1xBurst cannon, Advanced Targeting system (AP-1 on the Burst cannons) and Multi-tracker (re-rolling 1s on to-hit rolls)

vs

A unit of Crisis with each 3x Cyclic Ion Blaster

 

12 shots S5 AP-1 re-rolling 1s

vs

27 shots S7 AP-1 with the option to overcharge them for 9d3 shots S8 AP-1 D1d3

 

Both cost the same amount of Power points but it should be obvious which one is stronger.

With the regular points system you'd at least save 102 points with the Burst cannon loadout and could afford another one and a half Crisis with the same Burst cannon loadout (it costs 62p like that) or almost 14 Firewarrior/Gun Drones/Shield Drones/Pathfinder.

 

And to make it clear, it's not the fault of the Support systems.

With 3x BC each they'd have 36 shots S5 AP0 and no re-rolling of 1s and would be 72p cheaper (which is coincidentally exactly what a Crisis with 3xBC would cost....or 9 Firewarrior/etc.).

 

That's what we mean when we say that the power point system is unbalanced by design.

Units with weaker loadouts cost as much as units with much stronger loadouts where with the regular point system you could take something else or more of the weaker loadout ones to equal things out.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

=][= This is a thread about Chaos Troops, not another re-hash of power level vs. points. =][=

[Panzer]

=][= This is a thread about Chaos Troops, not another re-hash of power level vs. points. =][=

Right. Sorry. 

[Brother Aiwass]

I'm almost settled on a 3x5 csm with flamer & c—flamer, chainswords for everyone, in a battalion detachment. It comes at 255 and looks like a good compromise.

[the jeske]

Compering to what kind of a troop set up? Because flamers on cultists would cost you less and be just as efficient[which is not very efficient at all], cultist would have better resilience and while csm maybe doing melee better then cultists, it does not mean they are doing melee good.

=][= This is a thread about Chaos Troops, not another re-hash of power level vs. points. =][=

Well it is about points and a type of way to game, it is a not a vs thing. It is pointing out the problems of one system. No one even mentioned other list building systems [the free for all narrative or the point system of matched play]. If we can't talk about points and how they affect list building we have no ground base to talk about units at all.

[Commissar K.]

I'm almost settled on a 3x5 csm with flamer & c—flamer, chainswords for everyone, in a battalion detachment. It comes at 255 and looks like a good compromise.

It is to be honest, I mean that now you have all the more points left for good Elites and Heavies. A thing to consider however is that if you want to go hardcore on those Cultists can also be used as small pockets with a flamer and end up being cheaper... A mix of CSM and Cultists probably wouldn't be a bad idea, distraction blob of 20 Cultists is still cheaper as CSM.

 

A lot of it also boils down to play preforance. I know that some really love the Raven Guard and Alpha Legion Stratagem and while it is fantastic it is also not an auto-win by any means, boiling down to what others have also said, a Legion choice is really a preforance.

 

To me a Legion pick really boils down to flavourful choice. However I do feel that some can gain that little extra out of CSM/Cultists, being:

Black Legion; I'd personally pick Cultists as Rapid Fire turning into Assault makes it a mobile blob and mobile blobs are exactly what cannot be ignored for claiming objectives. Turning Rapid Fire into Assault never is too exciting but again I feel the added Ld and coverage grants the Cultists more. In addition Cultists save points for Abaddon.

Night Lords; I'd personally pick CSM, reason being the added survivability of Marines while not engaged in combat. I feel that NL really wants to go MSU and 5 CSM are fine MSU choices.

Iron Warriors; I'd personally pick CSM, also for MSU, Autoguns do close to nothing compaired to Bolter or Plasma Fire. It's not ideal but 5 CSM are fine.

Renegade Chapter; Cultists, focus the points on Elite choices who make much better use out of this Trait as any of our troops.

Alpha Legion; Cultists, focus the points on Elite and Heavy choices who can become insanely game changing with Stratagems.

Word Bearers; it doesn't really matter, this Trait is not cool in design anyway.

 

World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children should focus on cult troops anyway. I feel that Death Guard has a great Troop choice in the form of Poxwalkers with Thypus. The Thousand Sons arn't blessed in the same way but their Troops are drastical Elite level units anyway. So as above Id say typically Cultists win out and the moment you want to have effective blobs we should be discussing Daemons. For Night Lords and Iron Warriors I think something can truely be said for CSM.

[Excessus]

It is pointing out the problems of one system. 

 

That's not what this thread is about and you know it. Criticizing one system or another doesn't belong here, take it to amicus or something. 

[HeresyBeliever]

My next test is Iron Warriors large fearless cultist lines marching forward 

[Azekai]

So, some in the Death Guard news thread were speculating about Pestigors and the likely lack thereof in the DG codex. I don't want to talk about the models (which would almost certainly be sweet), I am more concerned with what role, if any, such creatures would have.
 

Given we know what Tzaangor stats are like, would Pestigors offer much as troops for chaos armies? A WS+3, BS +4, S4, T5, 5+FNP stateline seems likely... which makes them almost a combination of cultist and plague marine, a middle of the road option. They would likely be more expensive than poxwalkers and not be immune to the vagaries of morale. I am not sure I want a budget plague marine without armor that can't aim, but maybe I am missing something.   

[Commissar K.]

I highly doubt Pestigors showing up, I know the art sometimes get creative with the daemons and poxwalkers however there is tons of creative and suggestive art of characters that never showed up as a miniature.

[Warsmith Uveron]

My next test is Iron Warriors large fearless cultist lines marching forward 

 

I have used this along side my Demon Engine menagerie list... two units of 30 Cultists with flamers and CC weapons in a 'Column' so one of the Cultists is close to the warlord, but they advance so the flamers can get in range, and then a blob of 20 with heavy stubbers who find an objective and sit on them. 

 

My opponents normally have focused on the CC cultists running madly towards them when the squads get down to the last few guys re spawning them on the back line. 

[Panzer]

Yeah Pestigors won't be seen for 40k. At least not for a good while. Poxwalker took their spot in a Death Guard army and unless they were some sick melee unit or offer some other unique ability they would have to compete with Poxwalker for the exact same role in an army.

It would make as much sense as giving regular CSM another unit of Cultists but this time with horns and hoofs.