The Troops question

[Sception]

Isn't that what mutants are in the R&H army?

 

Honestly, though, I could certainly imagine two different non-marine mortal type cultist units existing with distinct roles.  Make one renegade guard style, with lasguns, special weapons, heavy weapon teams, maybe infiltration or some similar skill, build them as a cheapish msu unit for camping objectives.  Make the other mutant hordes or feral world barbarians, with less equipment (maybe just melee weapons), cheaper, larger numbers, maybe a run faster ability to help them cover more ground, maybe something to help them with the morale issues that come with larger squad sizes.  Better when you just want bodies, able to swamp things in melee, more buffable since CSMs have more and better melee buffs generally, but less versatile and less able to handle heavy targets due to lack of special weapons, lower default armor so less able to take advantage of cover, no alternate deployment and squads too big to use transports, etc.

 

Basically the renegade guard and mutant hordes from the R&H list, only without suffering from the 'bad on purpose' design of the R&H units currently.

Edited August 29, 2017 by malisteen

[FallenSoldiers]

How does everyone run their cultists in terms of squad size? I'm torn between 10 man squads for screening DS or 25+ squads for blobbing onto things. 25+ cultists on an objective or a 5 man CSM squad?

[Sception]

10 man squads w/ rifles, unless you're running Abaddon or a fearless-aura Iron Warrior warlord or running the cultists as renegades & heretics with enforcers to keep them in line, then you can run big squads with melee weapons and maybe an exalted and/or apostle.  Max number of flamers that the unit size and/or your spare points will allow, but if you need to shave points cultist flamers should get dropped before unit champ combi weapons, daemon prince warp bolters, rhino havoc launchers, and other such extravagances.

Edited August 29, 2017 by malisteen

[Brother Aiwass]

@Commissar K, while I know that cultists are one of the best generalist troop choices, I don't want to go hardcore on them. Nor even softcore to be honest. I also don't see a Night Lords force using them for any reason that doesn't involve them being flayed alive.

 

Anyway, for fluff and modeling reasons, I will only do a power armor force (for now, being the chosen army the Dragon Warriors; this may change if I start an IW or AL force),  the squishy stuff would remain Nucromunda/Space Pirates only.

[OnboardG1]

@Commissar K, while I know that cultists are one of the best generalist troop choices, I don't want to go hardcore on them. Nor even softcore to be honest. I also don't see a Night Lords force using them for any reason that doesn't involve them being flayed alive.

 

Anyway, for fluff and modeling reasons, I will only do a power armor force (for now, being the chosen army the Dragon Warriors; this may change if I start an IW or AL force),  the squishy stuff would remain Nucromunda/Space Pirates only.

 

As someone mentioned NL get value from small units so a bunch of cheap combat squads of power armour in a transport can give you some value in dropping leadership. Even if you don't actually assault with them, you can get them within 6" and lay in with the butcher cannons or something and they stand a better chance of survival than the cult blob.

[Brother Aiwass]

Yes, I never said otherwise. 

[Commissar K.]

How does everyone run their cultists in terms of squad size? I'm torn between 10 man squads for screening DS or 25+ squads for blobbing onto things. 25+ cultists on an objective or a 5 man CSM squad?

Cheap troop fill (just 10 with stubber) or blobby mean, (30) with the whole shebang to ensure theyll be anoying with tide of traitors.

Basically I feel that if you have 30 you'll have enough for 2K either as troop fill or distraction traction. Though again its all about your Legion preforance and overall plan.

 

@Brother Aiwass thats 100% cool, I feel NL have no use for Cultists too much anyway if you narratively go deeper into Regulars, Raptors and Talons. Their MSU plan can be really solid and the speed where those armies move with is just ideal. In addition In Midnight Clad is a hell of a defensive Stratagem also. 

[micahwc]

30 cultists can and will go down in a single turn before being able to use Tide of Traitors. I've had it happen twice thus far, once against Astra Militarum (lots of lasguns) and once against Grey Knights (storm bolters). Leadership 6 means that killing four cultists will likely cause more to die. Every ranged weapon I'm aware of will wound cultists on a 4+ at worst. An Astra Militarum infantry squad without orders will statistically kill 8 per turn of shooting at rapid fire range, 16 if they have First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire orders, which they will.

 

2x 10 man infantry squads and a company commander cost pretty similar to 30 cultists, and will wipe the cultists in one round of rapid fire shooting.

 

We can't compete against other cheap and/or good troops choices. We can do either cheap or good, but not both. And good is subjective, as how many points do you want to spend on a chaos marine squad to make it good? 5 chaos marines with 2x combi-bolters is 69 points for 14 bolter shots in rapid fire range. 5 chaos marines with a combi-plasma and plasma pistol on the champion, and plasmagun is 100 points even. I think these are best balance between cheap and good we have for troops. Even then, they are both outclassed by havocs which don't cost anything more and can bring more special weapons. 5 Havoks with combi-bolters is only 75 points, and puts out 20 shots in rapid fire range.

 

The way I see it we have either a minimum cultists tax for troop slots at 40 points for 10, don't count on them doing anything; or MSU of chaos marines with special weapons, which are also a tax as Havoks are identical but better.

[Azekai]

30 cultists can and will go down in a single turn before being able to use Tide of Traitors. I've had it happen twice thus far, once against Astra Militarum (lots of lasguns) and once against Grey Knights (storm bolters). Leadership 6 means that killing four cultists will likely cause more to die. Every ranged weapon I'm aware of will wound cultists on a 4+ at worst. An Astra Militarum infantry squad without orders will statistically kill 8 per turn of shooting at rapid fire range, 16 if they have First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire orders, which they will.

 

2x 10 man infantry squads and a company commander cost pretty similar to 30 cultists, and will wipe the cultists in one round of rapid fire shooting.

 

We can't compete against other cheap and/or good troops choices.

If you are comparing our options to guard, you are always going to be frustrated. Guardsmen (conscripts especially) are very, very efficient. Too efficient. The problem is with them, not us.

[micahwc]

They make a natural comparison though. They have similar stats and similar roles. Chaos has some great choices in the codex; but unfortunately troops are not one of them; unless you are World Eaters or Emperors Children.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Why oh why are you starting a Cultist blob in rapid fire range of lasguns?  Sounds like a tactics problem to me.

[Khar'vros the Crazed]

I disagree, plague marines have performed great for me.

 

And generally csm are significantly better then cultists, all they do is die in droves.

 

Comparing to the imperium is a mistake, chaos will never match up. They never have.

[Azekai]

They make a natural comparison though. They have similar stats and similar roles. Chaos has some great choices in the codex; but unfortunately troops are not one of them; unless you are World Eaters or Emperors Children.

Or Death Guard. Not even talking about the new codex- multiple times in 8th I have blunted WE charges with plague marines. They are not quite as solid as they once were, but they are still monstrously resilient.

[Sheesh Mode]

I can use my chaos space marines to assault the edge of a Conscript line, then fall back into the Guard zone the next turn while pinning the Conscript lines again with a rhino. The enemy has the choice to try to eliminate the marines, or to focus fire on bigger threats: Terminators, Possessed, Helbrutes, Havocs, Vindicators. 

Marines are adaptable. Use them to fit the context.

[Khornestar]

That trade off sounds like a good strategy as long as the scripts don't fall back in their turn after getting charged by the marines.

[Azekai]

That trade off sounds like a good strategy as long as the scripts don't fall back in their turn after getting charged by the marines.

He mentioned pinning them; if you get a rhino behind them where are they going to fall back to? 

[Khornestar]

Oh, now I get it!

[Sheesh Mode]

It's not just that. Consider: how much ground do guard players give their conscripts to fall back on? Experience has shown me most players will leave their chaff to die, rather than fall back. Though if you want to ensure they stay put just summon some Fiends of Slaanesh. Those creeps prevent units without the fly keyword from falling back.