Death Guard/Thousand Sons Bug

[Shifte]

Interesting bug in the new Codex: CSM for Thousand Sons and Death Guard players. You can't take Plague Marines or Rubric Marines in a Death Guard or Thousand Sons army. Nor can you take Rhinos. Think this sounds ridiculous?

 

So the following are known to be true;

 

1) You are expected to use updated datasheets in Codex: Chaos Space Marines over those in the Chaos Index. For example, Brimstone Horrors are now three points. Plague Marines are now better. You can't use the old datasheet any more.

 

This means that units updated in the new Chaos Marine Codex like Chaos Rhinos, Helbrutes and Predators, which are shared with both generic Chaos Space Marine armies and Thousand Sons/Death Guard, have also had their index entries updated. The index entries for these units are no longer usable unless you and your opponent agree. Thousand Sons and Death Guard players must refer to Codex: Chaos Space Marines in order to use these units.

 

This also includes reprinted Rubric Marines and Plague Marines, who are also updated from the index.

 

2) Page 116 of the Chaos Space Marine Codex says, under the <Legion> heading;

 

"The Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Fallen deviate significantly in terms of organisation and fighting styles. As a result, you cannot choose one of these keywords when determining which Legion a unit in this codex is from. The rules and abilities for the Death Guard and Thousand Sons are detailed in their own codexes, and both the datasheets that describe the forces of the Fallen can be found later in this book."

 

So, as a Thousand Sons player, I now have to refer to Codex CSM in order to take units like Rubric Marines, Rhinos and Heldrakes. However, according to Codex: Chaos Space Marines, I can not give them the <Thousand Sons> Legion Keyword. This would mean that I can only take Magnus the Red, Ahriman, Exalted Sorcerers, Tzaangors and Scarab Occult Terminators in a Thousand Sons army, for example. Rubric Marines are now no longer a unit available to The Thousand Sons, as ridiculous as it sounds. A unit of Rubric Marines recruited using the 'CHAOS' keyword wouldn't even be able to benefit from the Thousand Sons aura, as they can't take the necessary Legion keyword.

 

3) Thousand Sons Sorcerers in the index use the Dark Hereticus psychic powers. However, page 156 of the new book specifically says neither Thousand Sons nor Death Guard can use the abilities or rules listed in this section (which includes psychic powers, legion traits, points and warlord traits) because again, they have their own codexes.

 

This means that my Thousand Sons can't even use the expanded Dark Hereticus Lore. Makes sense, right? Nope. Imagine this scenario:

I take Ahriman, two squads of Tzaangors, Magnus and some Scarab Occult Terminators in a Thousand Sons Detachment. I also really want to take a unit of Rubric Marines, but since they can no longer technically be taken in a Thousand Sons detachment, I decide to to take an Alpha Legion detachment with a Chaos Sorcerer and two units of Alpha Legion Rubric Marines.

 

So Magnus/Ahriman use old Dark Hereticus (Warp Time, Presience, Infernal Gaze), whilst the Chaos Sorcerer uses the updated Dark Hereticus lore (which has the previous three spells, plus three new ones, plus three god powers).

 

Can I cast Warp Time twice, now, if I do it with Magnus and the Chaos Sorcerer? Are they different Psychic lores? If they are the same, does that not mean I can now use the extra three? Or does Dark Hereticus in the Index get entirely replaced, meaning that Magnus and Ahriman can only cast SMITE because page 156 of the Chaos Marine Codex forbids Thousand Sons/Death Guard from using ANY of the rules in that section?

 

*****

There is an easy temporary solution here. Just ignore the bit that says 'THEY CAN'T USE THESE SECTIONS BECAUSE THOUSAND SONS/DEATH GUARD HAVE THEIR OWN CODEXES' until such a time as they actually do have their own codex.

 

I'm not suggesting that I would actually try to play by these silly Rules As Written limitations. It's clearly unintended.

However, GW! Be a bit clearer please.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Shifte

[Shifte]

Note: This isn't just about Plague Marines and Rubric Marines. This also means Death Guard/Thousand Sons armies, in rules as written, can't take Rhinos, Helbrutes, etc either. They can only take units NOT reprinted in Codex: Chaos Space marines.

 

I'm not suggesting we should play it this way. I want to emphasize that point before anyone suggests that. There is a common sense solution here until we get the Death Guard/Thousand Sons codex.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Shifte

[Arkhanist]

Death Guard (and 1k sons) are not a codex:chaos space marines army, that's made abundantly clear in the codex:CSM itself. They share certain datasheets in common in the index for simplicity, but they are not that army - they will be codex:death guard and codex:thousand sons once released.

 

So like any other army that has not had a codex released, you continue to use the index for your army and ignore codex:CSM - it simply doesn't apply to you. Once the relevant codex is out, you'll use that instead, and any future changes to codex:CSM will continue to not apply to you.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

 

"If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?

You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online."

 

"Wait, did you say Death Guard?

We did. The Plague Legions of Nurgle are getting their own book to represent the fact that their way of war is substantially different from that of most Traitor Legions, as is the range of miniatures you can choose to use in your Death Guard army."

 

Yes, the CSM datasheets have been updated, as have their points - and if you're playing a CSM army, you have to use the new ones (except for units that don't exist in the codex, at which point you can still use the index datasheet as it remains the most current version).

 

But that's simply not relevant to 1k sons or death guard units; we use the same datasheets - and points - from the index as we did last week. The only time you'd use codex:CSM is if you take a codex:CSM detachment as part of your battleforged army. So yes, that would mean your deathguard detachment pays 20 ppm for powerfists, while the CSM detachment pays 12. Them's the breaks until the index is FAQ'd or the relevant codex is released.

 

edit: added link to community codex article.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Arkhanist

[Shifte]

So I can still use 2pt Brimstone Horrors?

[Arkhanist]

Well, you would have been able to, but they just got FAQ'd. Brimstones got increased to 3pt and reduced smite, same as the C:CSM and other lesser demons got a bit cheaper - I believe they're the same in both codex and index with the 1.2 FAQ.

 

On the plus side:

 

"Secondly, if you’re a Thousand Sons player, you may have noticed that the Dark Hereticus discipline in the new codex is larger than the one in the Index. Don’t worry – the discipline isn’t being replaced and you won’t need to get Codex: Chaos Space Marines to keep using it. Similarly, if you have Codex: Chaos Space Marines, you’re welcome to use the expanded Dark Hereticus powers with your Thousand Sons Psykers. If you’re a Daemons player, this change also applies to Be’lakor."

 

So that answers your question - if you only have the index (because you only play 1k sons and/or demons for example) you can keep using the short list, or if you do have access to the codex you can specifically use the expanded list of powers instead. But you still don't get to cast warp time twice :)

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/13/daemons-and-thousand-sons-in-codex-chaos-space-marines-aug-13gw-homepage-post-2/

[Raven1]

Well that's nice? I'm not really sure. I'm still not getting C:CSM and will what for TS. Hopefully, it won't be too long. I think it answer another question though, since GW specifically mentioned TS using the new Dark Hereticus powers but not the updated datasheets or points costs of any other unit, I would say that means that DG and TS cannot pick and choose until the respective codex drops.

[Goreshed]

Honestly this is just the transition phase of this entire release. Until all the books are released, all of the armies who have yet to see a codex will suffer from this; specially armies such as the various SM Chapters that have had books in the past and now our own DG and TS. Just gotta be patient.

[Mister Feral]

It's a fairly simple answer, Death Guard still use the Index list and units until their dedicated Codex comes out.

[Commissar K.]

Cool so I use the World Eater Index Troops ;)

 

As we have multiple topics covering this issue I hope GW speaks its intend soon.

 

Because indeed Codex, Index and FAQ Article contradict each other.

[DominikB]

Well, you would have been able to, but they just got FAQ'd. Brimstones got increased to 3pt and reduced smite, same as the C:CSM and other lesser demons got a bit cheaper - I believe they're the same in both codex and index with the 1.2 FAQ.

 

On the plus side:

 

"Secondly, if you’re a Thousand Sons player, you may have noticed that the Dark Hereticus discipline in the new codex is larger than the one in the Index. Don’t worry – the discipline isn’t being replaced and you won’t need to get Codex: Chaos Space Marines to keep using it. Similarly, if you have Codex: Chaos Space Marines, you’re welcome to use the expanded Dark Hereticus powers with your Thousand Sons Psykers. If you’re a Daemons player, this change also applies to Be’lakor."

 

So that answers your question - if you only have the index (because you only play 1k sons and/or demons for example) you can keep using the short list, or if you do have access to the codex you can specifically use the expanded list of powers instead. But you still don't get to cast warp time twice :)

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/13/daemons-and-thousand-sons-in-codex-chaos-space-marines-aug-13gw-homepage-post-2/

Wait can't DG do the same? They can't take normal sorcerors and DP Too?

[Arkhanist]

 

Wait can't DG do the same? They can't take normal sorcerors and DP Too?

 

 

They don't specifically mention them. Nurgle daemons have their own list, malignant plaguecasters use their custom contagion discipline. DG Sorcs and DP can only use Dark Hereticus powers from the index as it stands. It should only be a few weeks until the DG codex is out which is maybe why they don't mention it - I suspect all DG psykers will use an expanded Contagion in the codex. In the mean time, ask your opponent with the community article as precedent to see if they're OK for you to use the full Dark Hereticus list for your DG DP/sorcs if you have the CSM codex - it seems pretty reasonable.

 

 

Cool so I use the World Eater Index Troops

 

As we have multiple topics covering this issue I hope GW speaks its intend soon.

 

Because indeed Codex, Index and FAQ Article contradict each other.

 

World Eaters are a codex:CSM army, so they use the datasheets and points from there now. As you say though, there is a datasheet for WE berzerker troops in the index, and old units that don't have a datasheet in the codex can use the index datasheet according to the FAQ article. Current messages from GW have been contradictory as to whether that's intended for berzerkers or not, so it will get errata'd one way or the other - it's only been 2 days since the codex dropped after all!

 

In the mean time, I'd  check with your opponent first, as it's not clear if the codex datasheet replaces both in the index or just the elite one and it is a bit controversial. Personally, I'd be fine with WE berzerker troops, but I do suspect they're going to be definitively removed given the codex.

 

This is just the nature of having an initial 'get you by' list, which you can still use for units that have been obsoleted out of the main codexs as they release. GW have been pretty hot on erratas and FAQs given the lead time for printing and changes as they meet the full playerbase. It will settle down, and while I would hope for better proofing from the get go, I'd rather have fast FAQ'ing than none at all like the old GW.

[Urauloth]

That's right. Death Guard are stuck with the index powers until next month. We might not get access to the expanded hereticus discipline at all, because there might be an expanded set of Nurgle powers in the DG codex instead, who knows.

[Commissar K.]

 

World Eaters are a codex:CSM army, so they use the datasheets and points from there now. As you say though, there is a datasheet for WE berzerker troops in the index, and old units that don't have a datasheet in the codex can use the index datasheet according to the FAQ article. Current messages from GW have been contradictory as to whether that's intended for berzerkers or not, so it will get errata'd one way or the other - it's only been 2 days since the codex dropped after all!

 

In the mean time, I'd  check with your opponent first, as it's not clear if the codex datasheet replaces both in the index or just the elite one and it is a bit controversial. Personally, I'd be fine with WE berzerker troops, but I do suspect they're going to be definitively removed given the codex.

 

This is just the nature of having an initial 'get you by' list, which you can still use for units that have been obsoleted out of the main codexs as they release. GW have been pretty hot on erratas and FAQs given the lead time for printing and changes as they meet the full playerbase. It will settle down, and while I would hope for better proofing from the get go, I'd rather have fast FAQ'ing than none at all like the old GW.

 

There still is nothing in the Codex that confirms that. What we have is upgrades and updates. One could certainly say that the Heretic Astartes rules have been largely updated. However the Army Rules, as depicted in the Index have not. Not for Death Guard, not for World Eaters etc. However like you I'm certainly looking forward to the Errata! While it's been out officially for two days, it's really a few sentences that would have made this more clear.

As before the big "why" for me is why the Codex makes no reference to the Index. All the while the Index most certainly confirmed that Codexi will come up with updates for the Datasheets and Wargear.

 

From my perspective making cult troops for World Eaters and Emperor's Children was a narrative correct approach and actually one that feels like it makes sence and not basically skip over 20+ years of Chaos Space Marine history. The option to play an army is there however due to the new options for Detachments the suggestion still is left that ANY unit is roughly compairable in balance versus cost. I agree with this. I personally don't think Troop choice Berzerkers or Noise Marines are overpowered. Likewise I would find it extremely odd if Plague Marines wern't Troop choices in the Death Guard Codex to come or Rubric Marines being Elites in the upcomming Thousand Sons Codex...

 

I agree with you that this is a logical result. At the same time it's also not difficult to be clear with intend. In the end I believe some rules approaches could have been much simpler as GW eventually made them. 

 

Cheers,

[Harleqvin]

That's for C;CSM. Which doesn't have Thousand Sons army and Death Gurad army lists.
Thousand Sons and Death Guard armies are to be taken from Index: Chaos (just like how BA, DA, DW, and SW still take all their army stuff from Index Imp 1.) That is until their respective codex comes out (but for CSM you can still take things from the index if they are different like the lord on a bike. or a unit that lost options you can use the index version. stated in this article  https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/ )
So a Thousand Sons army can have these things, and so can A death Guard army. as long it's in the Index (also modified by the index chaos faq.)

edit - I somehow didn't see the post made by Arkhanist. He already stated the same thing. Glasd someone else noticed all this, too.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Harleqvin