What is the point of the "Beseech the Chaos Gods" Strategem?

[Vorenus]

On page 158 of the Codex there is a Stratagem entitled "Beseech the Chaos Gods."  I've read and re-read it multiple times, along with the rule for <Mark of Chaos> on page 116 (which is referenced in the Stratagem on page 158).  The full text of the rule portion of the Stratagem reads:  "Use this Stratagem at the start of any of your turns.  Select a unit with the <Mark of Chaos> keyword that has not dedicated itself to one of the Chaos Gods.  You can immediately dedicate that unit to one of the Chaos Gods as described on page 116."

 

I'm trying to figure out what the point of this Stratagem is.  Perhaps it is a failure of imagination on my part, but this Stratagem doesn't make any sense to me.  In previous editions, Marks of Chaos actually provided some in-game mechanic (e.g., Mark of Nurgle gave +1 Toughness, Mark of Slaanesh gave +1 Initiative, Mark of Tzeentch improved Invulnerable saves, Mark of Khorne gave a bonus to attacks from Rage and Counter-attack).  But in the current rules set, Marks don't confer any in-game mechanical bonus, they are simply Key Words.  So as I said, perhaps it is a failure of imagination on my part, but I'm trying to figure out why anyone would ever use this Stratagem.  I welcome your thoughts on this.

[Dragonlover]

So that you can then use one of the god specific stratagems with that unit later on seems to be the main thing I'd use it for. There's probably some kind of case where something hands out buffs to marked units and you might want to take advantage of it halfway through a game.

 

Dragonlover

[Apostle of the 30th Host]

As a Word Bearers player, I really like this stratagem as I see it as both an option that reflects the lore, and is quite tactically flexible. However, my own style of list building and gameplay may not be applicable to others, but hopefully you will get some worth out of it.

 

- First off, I'll explain the tactical uses of the Stratagem. In its most basic form, this stratagem should be viewed not on its own, but as a set with the god specific ones. Essentially it gives you an element of surprise and flexibility during the game. For example, if one of your Characters is about to die, they could use this trait to gain the Mark of Nurgle and heal themselves. Or a squad of Lascannon Havocs could gain the Mark of Slaanesh to shoot twice to take out a particularly troublesome Vehicle. That is what this is used for. But it adds surprise to the game as if all of your troops are MoS, your opponent will expect you to use the shoot twice at some point. If none of your army is marked, they might forget this one, or not see a use for it, and become complacent. Then you drop this, followed by a god specific one and surprise them. That is how I see this being used, and I imagine it could be quite effective.

 

- There are other, more personal reasons I like this too. My attraction to the game has always been primarily towards the lore over the rules, and even the models. As a result, when I build my army I always try to stay true to my interpretation of the lore, rather than what is good - as an example for you, this means I will always use basic CSM (at a decent unit size - no MSU for me), I was using Possessed back in 6th/7th (i.e. before they were good), I take very few marks on my Word Bearers.

 

- So based on my lore-based gameplay, I love this stratagem! Most of my Word Bearers aren't marked at the start of the game, but it is very much in keeping with the lore for them to seek the blessings of specific gods during battle. So from this point of view, I love how it represents a group of Word Bearers singling out one of the Pantheon for their blessings mid-battle. 

[Sception]

It lets you take a generalist undivided unit, then pick a mark after the game starts based on what stratagem or psychic power will most fit how you use them that game.

 

So you could have a CSM unit w/ some bolters, some chainswords, a couple plasmaguns, and a fisty champ, and if they're going to spend most of a given game shooting, then you can mark them slaanesh for the shoot twice stratagem, but if they're going to be meleeing insyead, you can mark them khorne for the fight twice stratagem.

 

Problem is, those stratagems are very costly in CPs, so you don't want to spend them on generalist units. And while the new mark could also qualify you as a target for the aligned powers, those all do basically the same thing, so there's not much point in after the fact tailoring.

 

So while the stratagem does 'something', what it does isn't often going to be worth spending command points on.

 

Also, its unclear what happens to a unit that uses this stratagem if they have the unaligned banner. Do they just keep it as is? Does it become the appropriate aligned banner? Is the banner lost? Who knows.

[Vorenus]

I thought about the "buff auras" that some HQs have, or possibly how the Marks interact with the God-specific Dark Hereticus Psyker-Discipline, but it seems to me that if you want to build an army that takes advantage of those buffs or synergizes with the God-specific psyker powers that you would set that up during the list-building phase.  Some more questions:

 

1.  Do you think that the "Beseech the Chaos Gods" makes a permanent change?  Or is it a temporary change?

 

2.  Let's say hypothetically you have an unmarked Sorcerer and you go ahead and use "Beseech the Dark Gods" during the game to give him a <Mark of Chaos>.  Would he get the God-specific Dark Hereticus power at that point?  Reading the rules for generating Psychic Powers, on page 161, indicates that you choose your powers before the game starts.  So I don't see any benefit for switching to a Mark mid-game for the Dark Hereticus power.  Now, on the flip side, you could change a unit so that it is dedicated to a particular Mark so that a Sorcerer who began the game with the God-specific power could now help that unit out--but again, if you wanted to be able to buff a unit with synergistic Key Words, why wouldn't you just have built your list that way from the beginning?

 

3.  I guess ultimately my question remains:  What am I missing here?

 

I see the appeal of this from a fluff perspective for the Chaos Undivided Legions, but even though it seems fluffy, I am struggling to figure out a reason to ever actually spend Command Points on it.  The example that Apostle of the 30th Host gave is a good example of how one could use this Stratagem, but I'm not sure it is a really persuasive example.  The reason I'm not sure I'm persuaded is that Command Points are extremely valuable.  In a 2000 point game (which seems to be the norm around here), you're probably looking at around 4 Command Points.  I would not want to spend a Command Point to Mark a unit just so I could spend more Command Points on a different Stratagem that is Mark-specific.  It just seems terribly inefficient.  Again, I'm not saying it doesn't "seem" fluffy for the Chaos Undivided Legions, I'm saying I'm trying to figure out how it would actually work.  

 

I keep wondering if the Marks of Chaos were supposed to do something totally different in this edition than just provide Key Words, but that a last-minute editorial change dropped all of the extra benefits from Marks of Chaos and left them just as Key Words.  The Key Word system itself is obviously something new to 40K and I'm still learning the nuances of the system.  This particular Stratagem almost feels like an editorial mistake--something that was originally included when the Marks worked a different way, and it just got left in by mistake (or at least left in without alteration) once the Marks simply became Key Words.  (There is other evidence that this Codex was poorly edited; the print edition table of contents is all jacked up, juts to name one example.)

Edited August 13, 2017 by Vorenus

[Sception]

You aren't missing anythIng. it isn't a good stratagem, and its not the only dud in the book. Spend your CP on one of the good stratagems instead.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

It lets you take a generalist undivided unit, then pick a mark after the game starts based on what stratagem or psychic power will most fit how you use them that game.

 

 

That's what i thought at first. Be this seems to stupid.

 

Why put a mark of Chaos during game for 1 PC while you can put it before game start for absolutly no cost ? 

 

They simply didnt write the rules correctly. This stratagem allow you to change the mark of one squad.

For exemple you can pop a Terminator Squad with Slaanesh mark, use Endless Cacophony, then charge, use this stratagem to switch to Khorn and use Blood for the Blood God Stratagem. 

 

has not dedicated itself to one of the Chaos Gods.

 

 

For me this sentence only apply to units dedicated to a Chaos Gods : Noise Marine, Rubrics, Berzerker, Lord of Skull etc...

[Sception]

the idea is you could have a unit that can do either shooting or assault, and if during the game you needed them more for shooting you could mark them slaanesh to access the double shoot stratagem, while if you needed them more for assault you could mark them khorne for the double fight stratagem.  The intent is clear, and it does what it's supposed to do, it just /isn't good/, because those stratagems are usually going to be too pricey to use on a generalist unit.

 

The one exception might be chaos terminators, and that's only if the mark change also results in an icon change, because terminators can be good enough at both that you might go either way depending on what your opponent's army turns out to be during deployment, either dropping and shooting twice for 3CP or, if the opponent doesn't have sufficient screens, dropping in with the khorne icon for a charge re-roll.

 

But, again, that's entirely dependent on whether changing marks will change the icon.  If not, I don't see it worth bothering with even then.

 

 

Simply put - it's a bad stratagem.  It isn't worth the command point.  It isn't written wrong, it doesn't fail to work, it does exactly what it's supposed to do - it's just that what its supposed to do isn't worth a command point.  Let it go and use something else.

[the jeske]

Or a squad of Lascannon Havocs could gain the Mark of Slaanesh to shoot twice to take out a particularly troublesome Vehicle. That is what this is used for. But it adds surprise to the game as if all of your troops are MoS, your opponent will expect you to use the shoot twice at some point.

 

 

I don't know, if he counts the CP you have and checks how many units that are actually worth using the slanesh SG on, he can easily count how many units on avarge per phase you can get to double tap. It is only a suprise if the opponent doesn't count/know how many CP you have and doesn't know the rules for chaos.

 

The one exception might be chaos terminators, and that's only if the mark change also results in an icon change, because terminators can be good enough at both that you might go either way depending on what your opponent's army turns out to be during deployment, either dropping and shooting twice for 3CP or, if the opponent doesn't have sufficient screens, dropping in with the khorne icon for a charge re-roll.

 

But assuming you do use it on terminators. Does a unit of them actually needs to fight a second time in melee against most units in the game, and if yes, is it worth getting your termis in to melee with such a unit[as it just survived the termis hiting them one time]. Even with termis it seems oddly inefficient, even if the CP cost was 0.

[Sception]

It won't be to fight a second time, 4 command points (1 for the mark, 3 for the second fight) is entirely too much.  Like I said, it would only be worth considering if mark changing changes the icon, because then it would be 1 CP to re-roll the charge on deep strike, which could be worth while if your opponent doesn't have enough screens, or alternatively 3 CP to shoot twice (again, 1 for the mark, 2 for the second shot), which, while pricey, could be worthwhile if they're carrying combi plas.

[Panzer]

It's an okay-ish Stratagem. Very situational. Take a big CSM unit undivided and decide after the game starts whether you want to make it more tanky with Tzeentch or Slaanesh psychic powers, more shooty by the Slaanesh stratagem or more choppy by the Khorne Stratagem. That's really all there's to it. Oh and you can take the undivided Icon on a marked unit that way if that's your thing.

[the jeske]

ok, but why not just make your shoty units slanesh from the start. This is the same thing we have with summoning. People say how it gives flexiblity etc, but in the end your summoning the best option there is [which was brimstones before the nerf] most of the time, and considering those cost points anyway, the better option was to take the points and buy a demons detachment and get the same stuff, plus free CP .

[Commissar K.]

I believe this is really there for the narrative sentiment. So in reality nobody will use it in any competitive setting but for players who like to be that special fellow the option is there. However I also don't feel it's exclusive to this Stratagem, the game overs compairable designs which I personally wouldn't bother with either. 

[Sception]

for summoning, the main reason to do it as far as I can tell is the one maelstrom card that gives us victory points for doing it (one if summon or cast a psychic power, d3 if you do both in the same turn, iirc).

[OnboardG1]

I used it the other day to get a nurgle blessing off on a Helbrute that was about to get shot to pieces. That was mostly because I forgot to mark it in the list over anything else though.

[Apostle of the 30th Host]

 

Or a squad of Lascannon Havocs could gain the Mark of Slaanesh to shoot twice to take out a particularly troublesome Vehicle. That is what this is used for. But it adds surprise to the game as if all of your troops are MoS, your opponent will expect you to use the shoot twice at some point.

 

 

I don't know, if he counts the CP you have and checks how many units that are actually worth using the slanesh SG on, he can easily count how many units on avarge per phase you can get to double tap. It is only a suprise if the opponent doesn't count/know how many CP you have and doesn't know the rules for chaos.

 

To be fair, most people I would play against are not competitive, and haven't played a game of 8th yet so the rules are unfamiliar to all of us. I admit that I haven't, so it is quite possible I am falling into the trap of thinking it is more effective than it truly is in practice, but I would like to test it and see. But anyway, I am imagining that most of my opponents, at least to begin with, would be less inclined to think of those things through inexperience. However, in a game against any experienced opponent, you are quite right - they should expect these things and not give me the opportunity to use them, i.e. mark my Lascannons as high priority regardless and kill them quickly before they get the chance to use it.

 

I believe this is really there for the narrative sentiment. So in reality nobody will use it in any competitive setting but for players who like to be that special fellow the option is there. However I also don't feel it's exclusive to this Stratagem, the game overs compairable designs which I personally wouldn't bother with either. 

 

In terms of the narrative, 100% agree with you there. It has the whole 'forge the narrative' thing written all over it. You can just imagine it, Chaos calls upon the power of the dark gods to kill a key target and win the game. 

Similarly, I can't see anyone using it competitively, as they could be using a command reroll instead. But for us 'special fellows' who like to really get into the lore and aren't fussed with being overly competitive, I think it could be fun. Although, I will concede that given the limited nature of command points, its is, 99% of the time not going to be worth using.

Just because I like the idea of it, and can see its use, I don't even know if I would use it often - my army will always be mostly undivided, so having that option is nice for that rare 1% of the time I could benefit from it, but having watched a few battle reports online, command points go so quickly I would be reluctant to spend one just because I like the narrative. Definitely going to try it out though. 

 

I used it the other day to get a nurgle blessing off on a Helbrute that was about to get shot to pieces. That was mostly because I forgot to mark it in the list over anything else though.

 

As much as I love that you used this and it, kind of, worked how I am imagining, you actually used it wrong. Sorry, I hate to be the one to point it out as I like all those narrative additions (even if they probably aren't worth it), but the Nurgle stratagem only works models with the Infantry and Biker keywords, which the Helbrute doesn't have. So, technically, you shouldn't have used it - although I doubt it was game-changing so it probably doesn't matter.

[OnboardG1]

 

I used it the other day to get a nurgle blessing off on a Helbrute that was about to get shot to pieces. That was mostly because I forgot to mark it in the list over anything else though.

 

As much as I love that you used this and it, kind of, worked how I am imagining, you actually used it wrong. Sorry, I hate to be the one to point it out as I like all those narrative additions (even if they probably aren't worth it), but the Nurgle stratagem only works models with the Infantry and Biker keywords, which the Helbrute doesn't have. So, technically, you shouldn't have used it - although I doubt it was game-changing so it probably doesn't matter.

 

 

You're right, but I wasn't clear. I used the psychic power to reduce the hit roll and then used In Midnight Clad to reduce it further. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

It could also see use in an Undivided army that is going to both Summon and field Marine units that are Daemons. That way, if you're going to be bringing in a variety of Daemon HQ's based on opponent, you could set your biggest, most important Marine/Daemon unit up to maximize synergy. It's niche and not something I'd do, but it's there.

[Gothical]

++Edit++

 

I made a rules boo-boo that was pointed out to me below. That'll teach me to skim for keywords!

 

++End++

 

I like the stratagem just for the flexibility it brings. For example, I can take a unit of Slaanesh-marked Terminators with a bunch of Combi-Meltas/Plasma with the intention of dropping them in and double-shooting, but find the unit in a situation where that strategy isn't possible (say the mission objectives mean I need to put them somewhere they can't double-shoot and reasonable targets), or they find themselves getting charged by chaff units they can happily survive against but will stop them shooting or moving all game. Swapping to Khorne and dropping the stratagem allowing them to fight twice means the opposing unit can be cleared off twice as quickly, enabling them to get on with what they want to be doing. It also matters for psychic powers, as the three God-aligned ones require a unit with the same mark. In any individual situation it is certainly better to have pre-marked a unit with the relevant marks to fit a strategy, but it is free flexibility that is nice to have the option to do.

 

On the Icon front, we will have to wait for an FAQ but for now it provides a way to take the best Icon and the best Mark (as it applies to Stratagems and Powers) for any given unit, given that none of the Icon abilities reference any of the Mark keywords (they all say "the unit", and when you chose the wargear you fulfilled the requirements for being "Khorne units only" for example). It's kinda game-y, but equally you will be spending some very precious resources to set up the combos, especially across multiple units.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Gothical

[Panzer]

I like the stratagem just for the flexibility it brings. For example, I can take a unit of Slaanesh-marked Terminators with a bunch of Combi-Meltas/Plasma with the intention of dropping them in and double-shooting, but find the unit in a situation where that strategy isn't possible (say the mission objectives mean I need to put them somewhere they can't double-shoot and reasonable targets), or they find themselves getting charged by chaff units they can happily survive against but will stop them shooting or moving all game. Swapping to Khorne and dropping the stratagem allowing them to fight twice means the opposing unit can be cleared off twice as quickly, enabling them to get on with what they want to be doing. It also matters for psychic powers, as the three God-aligned ones require a unit with the same mark. In any individual situation it is certainly better to have pre-marked a unit with the relevant marks to fit a strategy, but it is free flexibility that is nice to have the option to do.

 

On the Icon front, we will have to wait for an FAQ but for now it provides a way to take the best Icon and the best Mark (as it applies to Stratagems and Powers) for any given unit, given that none of the Icon abilities reference any of the Mark keywords (they all say "the unit", and when you chose the wargear you fulfilled the requirements for being "Khorne units only" for example). It's kinda game-y, but equally you will be spending some very precious resources to set up the combos, especially across multiple units.

That's not how it works. You can only give an un-marked unit a mark. You can't change an already existing mark.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You can't swap marks. It specifies that you can mark an unmarked unit.

[Zodd1888]

Maybe certain dexes will limit what Daemons can be summoned based on your legion. That Strategem would allow you to switch a Sorcerer or Character from DG to Tzeentch to summon monsters you couldn't normally.

 

I could see this to allow getting the Slaanesh powers off on someone with a relic from an alternative markless detatchment for example.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Zodd1888

[Gothical]

 

That's not how it works. You can only give an un-marked unit a mark. You can't change an already existing mark.

 

 

You can't swap marks. It specifies that you can mark an unmarked unit.

 

Well that's an embarrassing mis-reading! Whoops.

 

I guess that does reduce the usefulness somewhat given it is more efficient to give, as per my previous examples, Terminators a mark for their chosen role, but at the same time the logic still applies - an unmarked unit with Combi-Meltas and melee weapons can be given Khorne/Slaanesh (etc.) to enhance one specific role as the game requires, which is a neat option for all-comers lists.

 

Thinking a little more about it, the main use I can see then will be for Troops units. Your specialists like Havocs or Chosen/Terminators will probably already have the Mark most appropriate for the role you're kitting them out for, but you can leave your CSM and Cultist squads unmarked (especially for CSM as you can take Icon of Vengeance for +1 Ld). This means that your core squads then have additional flexibility as it means you can either double their firepower if your Havocs all get killed or whiff their rolls, or double their melee output if your Chosen/Berzerkers get killed or bogged down.

 

It is also neat for Sorcerers, whom if unmarked can get 2 great Powers from the Hereticus discipline then, for 2CP total, gain a Mark and trade a spell that has become less useful as the battle evolves for one of the aligned spells. You can still do a similar strategy with a marked Sorcerer if you are targeting a previously unmarked unit, for example dedicating your Chaos Lord Warlord to Tzeentch mid-battle and the Sorcerer swaps into Weaver of Fates, giving the Lord a 3+ Invulnerable Save.

[Vorenus]

Since psychic powers are generated before the game starts, I don't think you can swap one of the powers that you generated at the beginning for a new God specific power mid game.

[Lord Abaia]

Since psychic powers are generated before the game starts, I don't think you can swap one of the powers that you generated at the beginning for a new God specific power mid game.

He's taking about using the Chaos Familiar stratagem that let's you do just that for 1 CP.