Axe of Blind Fury vs. The Black Mace

[Vorenus]

In the bad old days of 6th edition, our Codex gave us two Daemon Weapons that were relatively good to choose from, the Axe of Blind Fury and the Black Mace.  We never got a 7th ed Codex, of course, so until Traitor Legions came out we only had two options for Daemon Weapons (other than those already built in to special characters, such as Abaddon's Drachnyen or Typhus' Manreaper).  Previously, the Black Mace was generally seen as the less useful Daemon Weapon because it was AP4 and didn't provide a Strength bonus whereas the Axe of Blind Fury was AP2 and Strength +2.  The Axe was restricted to Khorne, of course.  Basically the only time I ever saw anyone take the Mace was on a Daemon Prince, since that changed the Mace's AP to 4 and Daemon Princes were already Strength 6 so they could cause more Wounds than lowly Chaos Lords with their pitiful Strength 4.  But Daemon Princes had their own problems, the biggest of which is they were easy to shoot to pieces unless they were flying and also had the Mark of Nurgle, at which point it was hard to get them into melee, and by the time you stack on the obligatory psychic powers the Daemon Prince was usually close to 300 points.  So, again, I almost never saw anyone take the Black Mace.  The Axe, on the other hand, was almost obligatory in anyone running a Khorne-themed list.  I'm wondering if that is all going to change now with 8th edition.  In my view, the Black Mace is simply better than the Axe of Blind Fury.

 

Without reprinting the exact stats, it's worth noting that both th eAxe and the Mace provide the exact same Strength bonus.  The Mace has a slightly worse AP value:  -3 for the Axe, -2 for the Mace.  The Axe has variable Damage whereas the Mace is fixed with Damage 2.  In my opinion fixed Damage of 2 is better than variable damage where you have a 1/3 chance of getting a lower result than 2.  Finally, the speical abilities of each weapon have changed quite a bit.  The Axe now precludes re-rolls of 1--and our Chaos Lords are hitting on 2+ so they only miss on 1s, thus really benefiting from their inherent re-roll ability.  Instead, the Axe now inflicts Wounds on nearby friendly units.  The Mace, on the other hand, has a 1/6 chance to cause a Mortal Wound every time an enemy model is slain by the Mace.  So, to sum up:  Identical Strength bonus, Axe has slightly better AP, Mace has fixed damage (which I think is better), and Mace not only doesn't hurt your friendly units but actually has a chance to cause additional Mortal Wounds.

 

I find it interesting that the two Relics have switched places, and now I suspect the Axe will not be taken very often but the Mace will be taken a lot.

 

What does everyone else think?  Does anyone disagree with my assessment?

[Beachymike123]

At work at the moment so no codex to hand. But I'm fairly sure the Black Mace gave a +2S bonus byt was only ap 4. It was basically a power maul with an extra rule.

 

I think the axe will stay but only on characters who can get in and out of combat quickly (jmp pack lords etc). Just my opinion though.

[Vorenus]

I just double checked my 6th 63rd Codex. The Mace was Strength: User, not +2. But it did have Fleshbane, which I forgot about. Still, I never saw anyone take it except on a 300 point Daemon Prince because it was only AP4.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I wouldn't say the axe is going to become useless, it's still a high strength high ap good damage weapon, you'll just want to make sure to not put it on a character that's going to be too close to friendly units. I also suspect it's primarily going to be for biker/jump pack lords. Because of that though black mace probably will be more popular. 

[Vorenus]

Since Biker Lords are not in the Codex, can they even choose an Artefact? They didn't make the jump from the Index. Neither did Chaos Lords on a Juggernaut of Khorne.

[Khornestar]

I guess in the strictest of rules interpretations that is a valid point, but IMO that is well into "give me a break" territory.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Juggernut

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah if someone was trying to rules lawyer me about that I'd be pretty annoyed.

[Minsc]

I'm not touching the AoBF with a ten foot pole. I don't mind the hitting-your-allies on a 1 part; it's the "can't reroll 1's to hit part" that ruins it for me, since that means that the Chaos Lord can't benefit from his own aura.

I'd much rather go with the Black Mace or even a regular Power Fist over the AoBF.

[Sception]

Any thoughts on how the murder sword compares to the other two?  I'm kind of frustrated that it's only damage 1 when you're not fighting the named target, and when you are fighting the named target it inflicts single mortal wounds /instead/ of the normal damage.  AP-4 sounds nice, but a lot of the units you'd most want AP for have a 5+ invulnerable as well, meaning that AP past -3 may be wasted anyway.

 

I really wish...  well wish listing is neither here nor there.  Does anyone think the sword is any good, or are our power-sword-toting dark vengeance lord models still consigned to the display shelf?

[Khornestar]

Yeah, can't really disagree. Always gotta have a big down side to our cool artifacts. Oh well.

[Minsc]

The Murder Sword does what it says on the tin. It's our best weapon for killing those pesky 3++ characters.

I find it more viable now than ever, since it's still (mostly) good even against other targets with it's +1S and amazing AP.

D1 is bleh, sure, but for slaughtering RnF-models isn't half-bad.

[Sception]

I had somehow missed thw +1 strength. Makes me feel a good bit better about it, though i still would have preferred better damage.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Against the chosen target the murder sword is awesome. Just straight up dealing mortal wounds is going to chop through any 5-6 wounds character pretty fast. I think the murder sword is just best on a hunter type lord, maybe with a bike or jump pack. On a normal character fighting a wider range of targets though one of the other weapons is better.

[norngahl]

Murder Sword is quite excellent. +1 S means wounding MEQ on 3 as almost an other weapon and -4 means ignoring PA outright. The mortal wounds are ice on the cake.

 

The axe is a PF. Trade hurtig on 2s vs wounding on 2s against almost any infantry. Not worth it imho. Betten pay 12 Pointe for the of and take a better relic.

 

Same for black mace. PF wins.

 

Best relics are elixier for slaanesh princes with claws, the anti psyker khorne item, the IW armor and the murder sword. The other are outshined by regulär gear imho.

 

The are nice little additions, but not worth CPs.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I really like the Murder Sword, though.  S+1 AP-4 is a fantastic stat line, even when you do consider the D1.  Setting aside its specialization, consider how good it makes a Lord at mulching through infantry.  Sure, lots of elite units have Invulnerable saves, but most line infantry don't and even then we have Death Hex to turn off enemy I-saves anyway.  2+ rerollable to hit, 3+ to wound with no saves available?  That's pretty powerful.  The AP modifier also makes it half-decent when punching vehicles and monsters; S5 wounds things like Rhinos and Dreadnoughts on a 5+ instead of a 6+, and again that big AP penalty trivially cuts through most armor.  It's not a *good* anti-tank weapon of course -- here's where the D1 raises its ugly head -- but it's not a terrible backup plan to pull off a last wound or two.

[Bluthusten]

Chaoslord with Jumppack and Murdersword , mok, use Stratagem, hit twice, inflict 8 Mortal wounds = gg Edited August 13, 2017 by Bluthusten

[The Traitor]

I think that the axe and the mace are pretty much on the same level, I ran the numbers and against most targets the axe wins in terms of sheer damage when equipped on a Chaos Lord, except against guardsmen in which having AP -3 isn't better than -2 and thus being able to re-roll 1s wins:

http://i.imgur.com/eeOugSx.jpg

 

However the black mace has the chance of inflicting extra wounds when killing people (further reinforcing its position of anti-horde) and can't kill nearby allies, so pretty much the same. Also the axe costs 1 point more, which could make a list not fit in its limit I guess.

 

As for the sword, it would definitely rock against its chosen character, but I don't see blocking a Chaos Lord from a character too difficult, so even though the weapon would be quite solid, the problem is delivering it.

 

However I would always take the "free" relics over the weapons, and you can get them on a Daemon Prince too, the Elixir is awesome, as is the Khorne amulet and the Tzeentch eye and the IW armour is very cool too...for IW players. All of them have their uses, while the Chaos Lord, with only 4 attacks at base strength 4, cannot make much of a weapon unless it is really good (such as the cursed crozius).

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah cursed crozius is awesome, I think it wins out over the black mace and axe of blind fury despite being lower strength. Damage 3 plus rerolls to wound vs imperials is nasty.

[Brother Aiwass]

I'm going down the 74 points EC toting black mace route :)

[Extropian]

-2 compared to -3 save is much bigger than it sounds. Against 3+ armour, the -3 save is literally half as likely to be saved against. That's actually huge.

 

With it being easy to re-roll 1's, and with Chaos having a re-roll wound aura, the armour save is the only real randomness in the melee kill maths. Extra ap has a lot more of an impact on the average damage than it would otherwise appear.

 

That said, I prefer flat 2 damage, so Rees definitely a case to be made for both (as there should be).

 

Or just use both....

[ChaosReigns]

I'm planning on converting up a Dark Vengeance Chaos Lord with a power fist/sword combo and using him as an Exalted Champion (we'll see how that goes) and running him in a squad of Possessed in a Rhino. I think the Murder Sword will actually be pretty good for slicing up basic infantry where D1 is not relevant anyway and you can potentially benefit from Death to the False Emperor, whereas the power fist will be useful against vehicles, multi-wound models and so forth.

 

If you can make your character fast somehow (Jump Pack/Rhino/deep strike etc.) the Murder Sword also has a psychological benefit even if the wielder never makes it into combat with his quarry. If you pick a powerful character or the enemy warlord, most players are going to try to protect the Murder Sword's target, and you can use it to herd the enemy where you want them to go, force your opponent to be cautious and hesitant with a character who should be leading the charge into close combat and so forth.

 

Also, I do have to concur that the Cursed Crozius is fantastic. :D

[Sception]

 

However I would always take the "free" relics over the weapons, and you can get them on a Daemon Prince too, the Elixir is awesome, as is the Khorne amulet and the Tzeentch eye and the IW armour is very cool too...for IW players. All of them have their uses, while the Chaos Lord, with only 4 attacks at base strength 4, cannot make much of a weapon unless it is really good (such as the cursed crozius).

 

 

The problem with taking the 'free' relics over the weapons, at least on chaos lords and exalted champions, is that we don't have any solid mid tier weapons for characters.  Unlike loyalists, we can't give our characters master crafted power weapons or the like, if you skip the relic weapons you're dropping all the way down to generic power weapons and fists, and that's a pretty precipitous drop.  Equivalent enemy ICs are going to roll over you in duels, which leaves your characters having to run and hide from their loyalist counterparts - a situation I find utterly unacceptable on narrative grounds alone.

 

If you're not running generic lords or champions, though - if your HQs are a daemon prince or special character plus some support heroes - then yeah, skip the weapons.  Heck, you probably aren't able to take them in the first place.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Mastercrafted weapons this addition are two damage compared to just one for the normal power weapons. Even with some rerolls you're going to lose to an enemy character dishing out twice the damage for every failed save, not to mention loyalist characters have aura buffs of their own. Really need relics to stand their own against loyalist characters, though I can't say I mind too much spending  a single CP for a relic if I have two solid combat characters. Still, master crafted weapons for chaos would have been nice. 

[The Traitor]

If you're having problems with loyalist characters, simply take a Power Fist, they deal more damage than either the Black Mace or Axe of Blind Fury on average, even though it is true that they're a bit more expensive.

[Brother Aiwass]

Deep striking murder sword would be nasty, if you carefully explains what the weapon do before the game and hold Beta Strike, that should make your opponent paranoid enough to mess with his battle plan. Alternatively, you can just play Alpha Legion, infiltrate the assassin with a squad and take care of that Slay the Warlord objective in T1.