Axe of Blind Fury vs. The Black Mace

[the jeske]

That is just one mortal wound per hit, and you would have to get around chaff unless opponents character is walking around, and if he does that, then it is probably not a good idea to charge him. I mean you can mark a knightly baron all you want, but a chaos lord is going to die charging that.

[Brother Aiwass]

It's a relic that costs 4 points and can mess with the opponent's plan/deployment. It doesn't need to actually make it to be worth taking it imo.

[Sception]

I'm not sure how much it will mess with anyone's deployment or strategy if they stop to think about it. It's not all that much better than a master crafted power weapon, which averages similar damage.  The sword is a bit better, as it doesn't have to roll to wound, but two damage that has to go through a 4++ save comes out about the same as one damage that gets to bypass it.  And your lord or champion will be in trouble if they every have to fight terminators or primaris marines or dreadnoughts or any character other than the one you named, as a single damage weapon vs. multi-wound models, many of them with T6+ or invulnerable saves, is not going to get a lot of work done.

[Extropian]

For me the murder sword is best for taking out a single vital target, such as Guilliman. Ignoring that toughness and 3++ is pretty big.

Whether it's actually worth it....not sure. But that's e best kind of target IMO.

 

Definitely not an "all comers" kind of weapon though.

[Sception]

guillis still gonna smash any generic lord or champion that tries it, though.  You'll get in one swing for probably 4 mortal wounds, 5 or 6 if you're extra lucky, then he'll utterly demolish that character.  Gets you maybe half of his wounds out of the way, but no better than that.  I'm not sure that's worth the artefact / character / points.

 

If you're worried about that 3++, cast death hex before going after him with something a bit beefier in total damage output.  Like a knight, or a lord of skulls, or a daemon prince, or the Despoiler.

[Brother Aiwass]

@Mal, if you're throwing your murder character against a unit of termies in which the chosen target is not there, you need to revisit your target priority :P

 

Because of that DS/infiltrate is to me the best way to deploy it, specially if you explain how it works, as the other player may castle up to protect the target.

 

It doesn't have to be your warlord the one who's carrying it, but a second lord or sorc. For warlord, however, a terminator one with the +1A trait would be cool, as he'll be hitting on 2+ and re-rolling 1's with 6A. Add DttFE if fighting imperial scum and that's +/- 7MW (this is in void and an ideal scenario, ofc).

 

Not enough? Make him khornate and for 3CP  you can fight again.

 

And even against other targets is better than a power sword. 

 

Is not OP, but for 4 points isn't half bad either.

[Extropian]

guillis still gonna smash any generic lord or champion that tries it, though.  You'll get in one swing for probably 4 mortal wounds, 5 or 6 if you're extra lucky, then he'll utterly demolish that character.  Gets you maybe half of his wounds out of the way, but no better than that.  I'm not sure that's worth the artefact / character / points.

 

If you're worried about that 3++, cast death hex before going after him with something a bit beefier in total damage output.  Like a knight, or a lord of skulls, or a daemon prince, or the Despoiler.

Agreed, you need to stack the odds a lot. Khorne and fight twice is likely the best way. And it relies on your opponent foolishly putting Guilliman where he can be charged too.

 

I'm not sold on the sword in general, just trying to make it work.

[Sception]

Khorne stratagem activates at the end of the fight phase.  Unless the character can take a round's worth of attacks from Guilli (ie, unless you're swinging with Abaddon), you're probably not going to get to use it against him, not with a hero at least.  You certainly won't get to use it with any character that can carry a murder sword.

 

Re: terminators, you don't always get to choose not to fight them.  Terminators have a tendency to just happen where and when you'd least desire.  Also, if the named enemy character /is/ buried in a unit of terminators, then you'll likely need to cut through those terminators to get to him.  I suppose you could arm your hero with both the murder sword and a power fist, but then the sword seems a bit redundant.  Not /enough/ better than the fist even when fighting the named enemy to really be worth the artifact slot, especially when you could be carrying a combi-plas instead, but... eh.

[Commissar K.]

Fully agree with the sentiment malisteen. To me Chaos isn't really the faction anymore with terrifying characters. They do still excist in the game however, when we look at several of the Primarchs offcourse. In addition named characters still pack a good punch, that same good punch can now also be delivered with some of the Artefacts, such as indeed the Axe of Blind Fury or Black Mace, however good is not incredible. With this I mean it's certainly not "Primarch level" but then again this applies for pretty much every wonderful character of the past versus the now. 

I think one of the small gripes I do have is that Daemon Princes still are very limited in what they can thake and can't thake. If they did have more Wargear acces I do think we would have been able to present something "just below Primarch level" alas a Daemon Prince with Wings and Axe of Blind Fury is not an option.

Now I don't worry too much about it though. A good handful of our units are still working out really fine for me. Especially the cult units and the fans of Death Guard can really enjoy themselves with the regular upgrades they recieved in the Codex CSM if they also will apply the same for Codex DG.

[Panzer]

I think one of the small gripes I do have is that Daemon Princes still are very limited in what they can thake and can't thake. If they did have more Wargear acces I do think we would have been able to present something "just below Primarch level" alas a Daemon Prince with Wings and Axe of Blind Fury is not an option.

 

Pretty sure that was intended just for this very specific reason. You aren't supposed to build no-name characters that rival the big named characters. I don't mind that decision (tho a bit more options on the Prince would've been nice).

[Sception]

Abaddon and daemon princes, with a bit of support from nearby sorcerers, absolutely deserve to be counted among the game's most terrifying melee characters.  Heck, a prince can cast support on his own.  Why would you even want to give them weapon artefacts?  Their own weapons are as good or better already.  No hero in the game, not even a primarch, wants to get charged by a daemon prince, not after the prince has dropped a death hex on them.  Especially slaaneshi princes with the potion.

 

It's only when you get down to our generic lords and champions that things start getting lackluster, due to a lack of quality melee weapons (outside of a couple artefacts) and a lack of several key options on the champion (no invulnerable save, no terminator armor or jump pack).  They still have some utility as buffing heroes, and with artefacts you can pull them up to sorta par, but i miss the days when chaos lords and lieutenants were feared, when loyalist heroes had to run and hide or gang up to take our characters down, rather than the other way around.

Edited August 14, 2017 by malisteen

[Commissar K.]

malisteen one of the reasons as to why I would want to give the weapon artefacts is to a testament of the past. In addition I personally really like the idea of self made characters not being an underdog to named characters. For the simple reason that I like to convert.

The fact that GW has seemfully dropped their conversion policy with the Codex feels like a missed chance to me. Especially because the only reason as to why Chaos Space Marines excist in the first place is because some cats in the 90s wanted to make their Space Marines the bad guys. 

Cheers,

[Sception]

A daemon prince at least isn't an underdog to most named characters, apart from the daemon primarchs, and I'm personally ok with them being a cut above, so long as they pay an appropriate points / power cost for it.

 

I'd like princes to have a mace option for fluff/modeling, sure, though I have no problem with them not getting any specific mace in particular, especially as it wouldn't even be better than their default weapons.  They already have a sword and an axe, though.  Doesn't need to be a specific weapon if their own innate daemon version is perfectly fine.

 

I agree the anti-conversion, anti-bits swapping mentality that currently holds sway at GW is a major pain.

Edited August 14, 2017 by malisteen

[Panzer]

I just wish the Sword were actually worth taking over the claws.

[Sception]

Average damage output is the same against high wound targets without interfering special rules.  The claws do have an edge against single and double wound infantry, and against those necron shields that nullify damage by rolling under it, while the sword is only better against damage halving effects like Abaddon's armor, which are really rare.  So overall the claws are still better, but at least they aren't also 30 points cheaper anymore.  All the prince's melee weapon options cost the same now.  Honestly, they're close enough in utility that I don't have a problem running my own sword prince anymore.

Edited August 14, 2017 by malisteen

[Vorenus]

I miss the daemon weapon rule.

[Trevak Dal]

I just double checked my 6th 63rd Codex. The Mace was Strength: User, not +2. But it did have Fleshbane, which I forgot about. Still, I never saw anyone take it except on a 300 point Daemon Prince because it was only AP4.

Yeah cause :cuss that :cuss going into battle with a magical baseball bat. My blackMace prince made a BikeMaster (after I used an allied 6th Vindicare to destroy his eternal shield) run away as fast as he could when it started dropping guys like dominoes. It was my Anti wraithknight and wraithlord guy, he'd hop over a rhino shieldwall and I would play a clip of Sam Kineson shouting "OH OH OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!" Or the clip of the "Bear Jew" scene from Inglorious Basterds.

 

Sa'am was feared, and would take an insane amount of firepower that was overkill, but rightly so.

 

Then 7th made Wraithknights Gargantuans and took away the invulnerable save shattering ability of Vindicares. And he went out like McConaughey in Reign of Fire :(

 

I miss Sa'am.

[Commissar K.]

I miss the daemon weapon rule.

I miss the days Games Workshop actually cared about Chaos Space Marines.

 

[Brother Aiwass]

All that doom and gloom about a 4 point relic

Commissar K., on 14 Aug 2017 - 7:12 PM, said:

 

 

Vorenus, on 14 Aug 2017 - 6:26 PM, said:

 

I miss the daemon weapon rule.

I miss the days Games Workshop actually cared about Chaos Space Marines.

 

I miss Andy Chambers too

[Gothical]

It seems to me that the weapons are relatively similar in damage output, with the Black Mace being better at taking on MEQ and units and the Axe of Blind Fury better at taking on TEQ and single models. This is mainly because the Mace's ability procs of removed models whilst the Axe's superior AP means most opponents will only get a 5+ save (which is the average Invulnerable Save too).

 

I think the Axe is best used on a Lieutenant, where you can leverage the superior AP in combination with re-rolling To Wound against Characters, whilst the Mace is better on a Lord or Apostle that is more likely to be wading through a unit and only incidentally fighting characters. I prefer both to Power Fists because they're cheaper, don't come with a To Hit penalty and are just as effective against any target T6 or less. The opportunity (or CP in case of multiple Relics) cost is one you can only choose for yourself in army building.

 

I really love the Murder Sword though. It completely bypasses MEQ saves (not even a Lascannon can do that) and you can really do a number on a specific character. It is fantastic for getting around any characters that are relying on high-T or Invulnerable Saves, such as a Captain on Bike with Shield Eternal, or Lieutenant with Jump Pack, Storm Shield and Burning Blade (to name examples from the another recently released Codex). Heck, a Chaos Lord with +1-2 Attacks (be it Warlord Trait, Psychic Power, Chaos Boon stratagem, Legion Trait or Death to the False Emperor) can one-round any of the characters in Codex: Space Marines except Marneus Calgar and Guilliman (and Chronus whilst he's in a vehicle, but he's an odd one). Should you manage to survive the retaliation (extremely unlikely against Guilliman, reasonably possible against Calgar) nabbing a Khorne mark and popping Fury of Khorne will finish them off.

 

Some of the Legion-specific relic weapons are great fun too, chiefly the Cursed Crozius and Claws of the Black Hunt. Blade of the Hydra gets a shout-out too as it is a great unit-killing weapon and swaps for a 0-cost weapon.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I actually use the Murder Sword on an IW Slaanesh Sorcerer (in addition to the Force Stave). He stands in the middle of my firebase (and next to my Daemon Prince) daring their choppiest character to come over while he's buffing everybody. If they do, they crash into a Cultist screen and he Smites them, then counter-charges with Prescience after my Daemon Prince casts Diabolic Strength on him. It's a nice finisher and if he's fighting other models where it'd be more appropriate, he can just use the Stave. There's also the option of Delightful Agonies if I need to worry about incoming wounds. Not perfect, but for 4 points and a CP (after I take Fleshmetal for the Prince), it works and it makes people think twice before rushing a big character into the center to challenge the Prince or disrupt the firebase.

 

On a Lord, you could also fire a Daemon Shell before charging if you wanted to. 

[Vorenus]

I'm going to be taking Relics.  I don't dislike the named Special Characters GW has already created, but for me one of the aspects of the hobby I enjoy is creating my own Characters.  I want my Chaos Lord to be scary and powerful--but most important, I want him to be interesting from a narrative perspective.  I have written back stories for some of them, and written stories describing in narrative fashion the exploits of some of the Characters on the tabletop.  For me, the ability to take a Relic (or Artefact, I guess, is the proper term for our Codex now, but you know what I mean) is more flavorful than simply taking a generic "Power Axe" or "Power Fist."  What I would really like to see is a more open-source approach to "build your own" Relic weapons where you can purchase special abilities for weapons.  Heck, I'd like to see some sort of "open source" system where you can purchase special abilities for Characters, Traits for your homebrew warbands (or Chapters, for the Loyalist lapdogs), Veteran Skills for particularly boss units (e.g., Chosen used to have Infiltrate, etc.).  But in the absence of such a system, I'm going to be using the Artefacts as they are given.  I will probably always take the Black Mace over the Axe of Blind Fury because losing the Chaos Lord's re-rolls on To Hit rolls--and the severe risk to kill his own followers--is simply not worth an extra point of Armor Penetration in my mind, and I think a fixed damage trait of 2 on the Mace is better than random damage on the Axe.

 

By the way, my Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut is going to be hitting at Strength 8 with either the Axe or the Mace.  So that's not too shabby.  Yes, a Power Fist would be Strength 10, but then -1 to Hit, and Strength 8 wounds everything up to Land Raiders and other Toughness 8 models pretty darn well.  The Power Fist only really sees any significant gain above Toughness 8.  I guess I could go whole hog and give him both a Power Fist and either the Axe or Mace (probably Mace, as I said above), but I probably won't do that.

[Bluthusten]

A Sorcerer can take the Murdersword? Cause it replaces a "energy-sword", not a "Forcesword" (?)

[Berzerker88]

The Axe is still very good on a Juggerlord, being S8 Ap-3 d3 damage makes it slightly more accurate than a power fist (you can still get another 1 or a 2 with the reroll) for similar benefit, and only costs 5pts.

 

Granted, the Power Fist is better on nearly everything else and specially khornate Exalted Champions who get rerolls to hit and wound vs Characters...

[Panzer]

A Sorcerer can take the Murdersword? Cause it replaces a "energy-sword", not a "Forcesword" (?)

You can replace a Sorcerer's Bolt pistol with a Power sword.