Uses of Intercessors?

[Stoic Raptor]

The reason for taking Intercessors over Reivers, is that Reivers will not fill a Troop slot.  You need something for that, and in an all-Primaris force that's the sole option.

Also, as said before, Reivers don't get ObSec.

 

As for weaponry, sure an Intercessor with a bolt rifle can shoot a little farther... once.  They're great for holding an objective, but weaponry is immaterial to how fast either kind dies.  And holding an objective is about all they'll do.  With the ability to Advance and shoot, you can control the range of engagement - be out of range on the opponent's turn and rush in on yours. 

 

I think it all comes down to Chapter Tactics.  For Ultramarines, I see the auto-bolters as contributory to a style of mobile warfare.

[Blindhamster]

I'll likely use a mix of bolt rifles and auto bolt rifles across multiple squads.

For me it'll come down to blood angels chapter tactic, but I do think auto bolt rifles are cool and serve a purpose for allowing the intercessors to be far more mobile.

But lets not kid ourselves, that mobility comes at a cost, if you advance and shoot, you're less accurate. The AP mod vs extra shot works out very slightly in the auto bolt rifles favour, but if you're playing aggressively with regular bolt rifles, you can be shooting from a longer range, and increase in effectiveness once you're within 15".

For Raven Guard auto bolt rifles feel like a good choice, if blood angels get the advance and charge rule many of us hope for, then i'd say auto bolt rifles would be a no brainer for them too. For things like ultramarines? Personally I think the regular bolt rifle is better (falling back and shooting twice with an AP mod is better than falling back and shooting twice with no AP mod).

[Lysere]

For me the big reason I'd rather have auto bolt rifles on intercessors than take reivers with carbines is because the reiver sergeant doesn't get a power sword option or the grenade launcher on the squad for that extra bit of versatility at range.

 

In terms of weapons it's pretty straight forward to me.

 

Stalkers are for a back field squad that isn't going to be moving. This is rarely needed so not really worth it.

 

Bolt rifles are best when you don't have a reason to use the others since it has decent damage at range and the best overall damage up close.

 

Auto rifles allow a unit to be faster than either other option while maintaining firepower at all ranges so they can kite slower units around.

 

As a Templar I prefer the autos since anything at short range is a prime target for a charge and a 3A power sword is pretty solid for mop up.

 

I will build some regular rifles as well but the lack of assault weapons means if I'm at short range before I move I don't have the option of advancing away if I'd rather not get into combat. The autos would allow me the movement needed to choose if I want to be in combat or get away.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Lysere

[Stoic Raptor]

Because Assault weapons are less accurate when Advancing, I think it's important to equip the Captain (or whatever other characters are providing an aura) with the same type of weapon as the squads they support.  If the Captain, for instance, also has an auto-bolter, he can offset that normal penalty to hit.

[Sawtooth]

I use 5 man bolt rifle squads to sit on backfield objectives alot, they so far deal well with deep strikes and have obsec if something gets onto the objective. I'm having increasing success with 10 man autobolter squads advancing down field like orcs, shooting as much dakka as they can before getting a charge. Granted I play Blood Angels and support them with a Sanguinary Priest. I might bring out the Primaris Chaplain and see how he does buffing them.

[SkimaskMohawk]

On the t8 3+ vehicle front, autos do .74 compared to the out of rapid .56 and the .74 of stalkers.

 

For orks T4 6+, autos generate a nice amount of unsaved wounds and the rifle doesn't do significantly more in rapid fire. My only thought is that ork armies usually try and close the distance as fast possible, with a few elements that lurk from long range; 18"-24" firefights aren't that common.

 

Eldar T3 3+ it's surprisingly 2.87, 2.17, 2.87, so I'd go with the rifle

 

In a pure primaris list, intercessors are pretty much just objective fodder imo. Don't give them autos, as reivers are cheaper; midfield objective grabbing can be done with rifles and since you'll be skirmishing in the midfield, I assume you'll get in rapid fire range. I don't think stalkers really have a place at their cost sadly; if they were all free, then it'd be all down to preference, but rifles being free, than autos usually dictates what's most efficient

[Lysere]

Don't forget that against demons and other none armor save units the autos will almost always be better unless the base save plus cover is better than their invuln.

 

Also while you do have a harder time hitting after an advance neither the base rifles or stalkers can even fire if they advance.

 

Edit: Also the only way the Reiver vs Intercessor is favorable to the Reivers is if the only thing you are taking are the assault bolters. The problem with that is the Intercessors have the aux grenade and the power sword for the sergeant. Either one already gives them an edge over the Reivers while both make them more flexible at range and more dangerous against most enemies in combat.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Lysere

[SkimaskMohawk]

So your 10 intercessors with Power sword on seargent and grenade launcher costs 34 more points than 10 reivers with carbines. Point for point they're worse; that single grenade isn't worth 30 points and the one Power sword doesn't compare to all the heavy pistols and the debuff from the shock nades. They're better because for your points you get a unit that does more on the whole.

[Blindhamster]

point for point they are not worse... they also have objective secured. You had a 10 man squad of reivers attack my squad of intercessors. you better kill them all (unlikely) or I keep the objective anyway.

Reivers are a harassment unit, nothing more, nothing less. Intercessors will win you games (unless you're just playing a "kill them all" game - but those are generally not so much fun)

[Stoic Raptor]

That "single grenade" is essentially  missile launcher, albeit with a somewhat shorter range.

[SkimaskMohawk]

point for point they are not worse... they also have objective secured. You had a 10 man squad of reivers attack my squad of intercessors. you better kill them all (unlikely) or I keep the objective anyway.

 

Reivers are a harassment unit, nothing more, nothing less. Intercessors will win you games (unless you're just playing a "kill them all" game - but those are generally not so much fun)

 

Why would I throw reivers at a ten man squad of intercessors? Misplay like that deserves to be punished

 

Sure intercessors will win you the game with Ob Sec (until everyone else has it and outnumbers you), but in a pure primaris army, you need to save points for units that have a real impact; ergo taking the cheaper and all around better rifles, and leaving the midfield to units that are either cheaper and have more utiility (reivers), or more expensive and have more impact (aggressors, hellblasters). Don't spend points for no reason.

 

That "single grenade" is essentially  missile launcher, albeit with a somewhat shorter range.

 

It's factually not at all a missile launcher. 30" 6 -1 D3 vs 48" 8 -2 D6. It's great because it's free, but let's not pretend that being 30(4) points more than reivers is better than being 10(4) points more than reivers. The grenade is there either way, and synergizes better with the superior rifles.

[Blindhamster]

Grenade launchers are 1pt. Not free.

 

Fwiw I prefer bolt rifles regardless, I wasn't arguing that point :)

[Lysere]

In my case it's 5 men not ten to minimize chance for morale and increase the number of attacks with power weapons slightly. That and keep the unit small enough to actually use cover.

 

Even so the increased cost between even 5 model units seems fair since against the same target the intercessors will hit just a bit harder. Yes the Reivers can ignore overwatch but only if you get within that 6" range.

 

Plus heavy pistols don't matter much when no one ever sticks around in combat unless they've already won.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Grenade launchers are 1pt. Not free.

 

Fwiw I prefer bolt rifles regardless, I wasn't arguing that point

 

Ah it's in the FAQ, no wonder I couldn't find it in the Codex 

 

In my case it's 5 men not ten to minimize chance for morale and increase the number of attacks with power weapons slightly. That and keep the unit small enough to actually use cover.

 

Even so the increased cost between even 5 model units seems fair since against the same target the intercessors will hit just a bit harder. Yes the Reivers can ignore overwatch but only if you get within that 6" range.

 

Plus heavy pistols don't matter much when no one ever sticks around in combat unless they've already won.

 

In melee Intercessors with a sword do 1.73 wounds vs Reivers 1.20. Neither of them kill two whole models and the primaris suffer slightly more damage in return do to the debuff (1.08 vs 0.83 against the remaining marines from a 10 man Tac squad with no melee weapon). From shooting, they both do exactly the same amount of damage (1.08) against MEQ. I wouldn't pay 20 more points for that; keep them cheap, stick them in the back with rifles, don't use ineffecient units.

[Lemondish]

 

Grenade launchers are 1pt. Not free.

 

Fwiw I prefer bolt rifles regardless, I wasn't arguing that point

 

Ah it's in the FAQ, no wonder I couldn't find it in the Codex 

 

In my case it's 5 men not ten to minimize chance for morale and increase the number of attacks with power weapons slightly. That and keep the unit small enough to actually use cover.

 

Even so the increased cost between even 5 model units seems fair since against the same target the intercessors will hit just a bit harder. Yes the Reivers can ignore overwatch but only if you get within that 6" range.

 

Plus heavy pistols don't matter much when no one ever sticks around in combat unless they've already won.

 

In melee Intercessors with a sword do 1.73 wounds vs Reivers 1.20. Neither of them kill two whole models and the primaris suffer slightly more damage in return do to the debuff (1.08 vs 0.83 against the remaining marines from a 10 man Tac squad with no melee weapon). From shooting, they both do exactly the same amount of damage (1.08) against MEQ. I wouldn't pay 20 more points for that; keep them cheap, stick them in the back with rifles, don't use ineffecient units.

 

 

Play your dudes how you want - nobody plays Warhammer as a cold mathematical exercise using averages. When the numbers are that close, you can guarantee that the role you're using these units for will have a far, far, far bigger impact than the points you could have saved by choosing something 'more efficient'. Mathhammer, like all statistical analysis, is only as good as the model, and this seems like poor reasoning when it fails to take into consideration the most important component - role. Intercessors are resilient enough and effective enough to be used aggressively with support to help sweep units off objective, not to be plinking things from 30'' away. 

 

But at this point I think this topic has been run into the ground and it feels like we're going in circles. 

[Lysere]

 

 

Grenade launchers are 1pt. Not free.

 

Fwiw I prefer bolt rifles regardless, I wasn't arguing that point

Ah it's in the FAQ, no wonder I couldn't find it in the Codex

In my case it's 5 men not ten to minimize chance for morale and increase the number of attacks with power weapons slightly. That and keep the unit small enough to actually use cover.

 

Even so the increased cost between even 5 model units seems fair since against the same target the intercessors will hit just a bit harder. Yes the Reivers can ignore overwatch but only if you get within that 6" range.

 

Plus heavy pistols don't matter much when no one ever sticks around in combat unless they've already won.

In melee Intercessors with a sword do 1.73 wounds vs Reivers 1.20. Neither of them kill two whole models and the primaris suffer slightly more damage in return do to the debuff (1.08 vs 0.83 against the remaining marines from a 10 man Tac squad with no melee weapon). From shooting, they both do exactly the same amount of damage (1.08) against MEQ. I wouldn't pay 20 more points for that; keep them cheap, stick them in the back with rifles, don't use ineffecient units.

If your goal is to only use the most efficient units that won't leave you with much as most units simply aren't efficient without support. Especially when you consider anything thats efficient against one target is less effective against another. The ap of the rifle is great but useless against units with no save or invulns better than their armor.

 

If your goal is to sit back and shoot with bolters sternguard are far better for that role since they have more ap and their own stratagem that makes them far better at killing the vast majority of targets when it really matters while having access to the vast array of transports in the marine dex.

 

The reiver grenade is super short range and you won't always have the chance to use it before a charge or you could be the one charged negating it's use. A power sword however is both cheap and far more dangerous in combat than a knife for the sergeant especially with their number of attacks.

 

That and taking reivers for their guns feels like a waste to me since they have two wargear options that give them utility that most units don't have. Unless you play ravenguard you'll probably want either the grav chutes or the grapel to give you flexibility with their deployment.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

If your goal is to only use the most efficient units that won't leave you with much as most units simply aren't efficient without support. 

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at. If I say to take rifles over autos, they're able to support my army more efficiently because they're mathematically better in the majority of situations. Their reduced cost also lets me save points on the unit and spend them elsewhere, increasing the amount of "support" I can have in my army. 

 

 

 

Especially when you consider anything thats efficient against one target is less effective against another. The ap of the rifle is great but useless against units with no save or invulns better than their armor.

 

Sure, but the vast majority of units in the game don't qualify for that. If all your opponents play is daemons,poxwalkers or horde orks, build them as autos. In every other case, the rifle is better by dint of being able to get the same amount of shots and by having an AP. 

 

 

 

If your goal is to sit back and shoot with bolters sternguard are far better for that role since they have more ap and their own stratagem that makes them far better at killing the vast majority of targets when it really matters while having access to the vast array of transports in the marine dex.

 

A couple of times earlier on I said I was talking in a pure primaris list, since it's far too easy to say why not to take intercessors. My goal is to fill up my troops as cheaply as possible, hence, the rifles. If not, it would be scouts, as they can double as bubble wrap.

 

The reiver grenade is super short range and you won't always have the chance to use it before a charge or you could be the one charged negating it's use. A power sword however is both cheap and far more dangerous in combat than a knife for the sergeant especially with their number of attacks.

 

That and taking reivers for their guns feels like a waste to me since they have two wargear options that give them utility that most units don't have. Unless you play ravenguard you'll probably want either the grav chutes or the grapel to give you flexibility with their deployment.

 

Did the math above, sword doesn't add as much value as you might think against meq. If they were the same points, then I'd like intercessors with autos and sword a lot more, but even with one of the two upgrades, you're still 10 points cheaper and now have way more utility and control over the positioning. My point, as always, was take rifle units instead of auto ones.

 

 

 

Play your dudes how you want - nobody plays Warhammer as a cold mathematical exercise using averages. When the numbers are that close, you can guarantee that the role you're using these units for will have a far, far, far bigger impact than the points you could have saved by choosing something 'more efficient'. Mathhammer, like all statistical analysis, is only as good as the model, and this seems like poor reasoning when it fails to take into consideration the most important component - role. Intercessors are resilient enough and effective enough to be used aggressively with support to help sweep units off objective, not to be plinking things from 30'' away. 

 

Just take rifles then. They're better in short range firefights, so use those to aggressively sweep units off. Don't take autos, when they're a worse option for more points.

[Silas7]

On the t8 3+ vehicle front, autos do .74 compared to the out of rapid .56 and the .74 of stalkers.

 

For orks T4 6+, autos generate a nice amount of unsaved wounds and the rifle doesn't do significantly more in rapid fire. My only thought is that ork armies usually try and close the distance as fast possible, with a few elements that lurk from long range; 18"-24" firefights aren't that common.

 

Eldar T3 3+ it's surprisingly 2.87, 2.17, 2.87, so I'd go with the rifle

 

In a pure primaris list, intercessors are pretty much just objective fodder imo. Don't give them autos, as reivers are cheaper; midfield objective grabbing can be done with rifles and since you'll be skirmishing in the midfield, I assume you'll get in rapid fire range. I don't think stalkers really have a place at their cost sadly; if they were all free, then it'd be all down to preference, but rifles being free, than autos usually dictates what's most efficient

 

Personally i think the ABR should be 0pts or the BR's should up to 1pt, once cost is eliminated you can take the unit for the role you want filled.

 

Because Assault weapons are less accurate when Advancing, I think it's important to equip the Captain (or whatever other characters are providing an aura) with the same type of weapon as the squads they support.  If the Captain, for instance, also has an auto-bolter, he can offset that normal penalty to hit.

 

And keep advanced units in his auras while laying down fire, much more flexible. :)

[Prot]

I personally prefer Intercessors to Reivers at this point. The Reivers don't really seem to be good enough at CC to take.... for example, scouts out of your list.

 

The Boltrifle shooting twice at 15" just makes me feel like at least peons won't get t shirt saves.

 

Basically if you play Primaris, you need a few Intercessor squads anyway so for me it's no debate between these two units.... a it legit bit if apples and oranges to me.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Reivers are horrible, I just always seem to find something a little better to do with those points it would seem. Actually I'm upsizing my Intercessor squads now. And taking less of these units that just get vaped without huge support.

[tdemayo]

I'm putting the assault version on mine. I plan to walk them up the board accompanied by the assault version of the Hellblasters. As far as I'm concerned, it's all about being able to move and pump out two shots. When I play Tacticals, I use the Rhino to bring plasma and bolters into double tap range. The assault weapons almost double the effective fire zone of Intercessors, who lack a cheap Transport. In essence, the extra wound and the 24" double fire range on the Primaris Marines are their Rhino. The regular bolt rifle is only better if I have some way to bring them quickly into 15", where the 1AP makes a difference. Otherwise, they are left sniping at 30" with half the number of shots. (Since I have some from the boxed set, I will probably put them in the rear, to counter light reserves.

 

As far as Intercessors vs. Reiver go, yeah, the Reivers do mostly the same thing better, plus they DS. But they're not troops. I suspect each type of Primaris will get tweaks for their role as time goes on. I'm not sinking the money and painting time into a Reiver-based force.