Do you think we are OP in 8th?

[Bulwyf]

I was playing a Konor mission against a Black Legion player this past weekend. He was bitterly complaining about my Wulfen, TWC, Bjorn, Razorbacks and the chainsword/bolter options for GH.

 

He wanted to know where his stormshield on every model assault option was in his codex, where his chainsword/bolter troop option was and where his Razorback with LAC options was.

 

Are we really that cheesy in 8th? I've certainly gotten beaten in 8th by random armies so far and haven't felt particularly weak or OP. But clearly I have some bias in my SW love.

 

What do you guys think?

[Lord Ragnarok]

The Chaos dex is brand new and probably needs experience working out the best options. As far as I can tell they have some potentially powerful options. It's usually a poor experiment when someone throws out the "overpowered" verdict after one or two games after release. 

[Karhedron]

I agree. My initial impression is that the Index list is pretty good to us, probably better than we have been for a couple of editions. I wouldn't say OP though.

 

As others have pointed out, the CSM codex is brand new and will take some time to figure out what works well. The good thing about the SW Index list is that most of our classic strengths still work much as they always did. TWC have been toned down a notch but are still competitive. Our regular infantry are a bit better than codex Marines IMHO but we pay extra points for them.

 

Bjorn is boss but Russ personally chose him as his successor and he now has a Dreadnought suit to fight in. He should be rock 'ard!

[Morovir]

One thing would be how Chaos Space Marines lost their option to take a chainsword along with their bolter, but Grey Hunters kept it.

[Bulwyf]

I'll be honest, CSM should have the chainsword/bolter option as well as GH. I absolutely agree that should be consistent.

[Gherrick]

After playing against the new Grey Knight codex, I think the bar has been raised a LOT. I'm still trying to figure out how the heck anyone can win against the alpha strike capability the GKs have. By comparison, we are just "OK". I agree Bjorn is top tier, but not OP. The "fix" to our WG units put us more or less back into line with other elite infantry options of the other chapters. I figure once we get our unique stratagems and relics, we should have the right amount of extra edge we need to have.

[the jeske]

I was playing a Konor mission against a Black Legion player this past weekend. He was bitterly complaining about my Wulfen, TWC, Bjorn, Razorbacks and the chainsword/bolter options for GH.

 

He wanted to know where his stormshield on every model assault option was in his codex, where his chainsword/bolter troop option was and where his Razorback with LAC options was.

 

Are we really that cheesy in 8th? I've certainly gotten beaten in 8th by random armies so far and haven't felt particularly weak or OP. But clearly I have some bias in my SW love.

 

What do you guys think?

CSM in the CSM book are still bad, so if he based his army around those, and not cultist+as much shoting stuff as he could cram in to a list, and tried to do short range or melee vs SW then the result was the one you got. One unhappy [sic] chaos player. As to the main question are SW OP, then no they are not. They lack the chapter stratagems, have no valid flyer option in their codex and can end up in a very unhappy place, if the opposing army can A out shot them B out assault them. 

What SW do have on the other hand is solid units, that can be used in a characterful way. And it is not 3-4 units per the whole index. So even if they do not win as much as the most top tier armies out there, they do seem to bring a lot of fun to people that want to play them.

 

I'm still trying to figure out how the heck anyone can win against the alpha strike capability the GKs have.

 

 

Use chaff. If you don't play the deploy less go first way, you can really hurt the GK on turn 1 with some armies. GK have no good way of dealing with flyers, other then taking their own storm ravens only unlike normal marines they struggle to fit enough of them in to a list to make it work perfectlly. They can't deal with melee hordes, supported by MCs without tailoring vs such a list.

Edited August 14, 2017 by the jeske

[Karhedron]

I'm still trying to figure out how the heck anyone can win against the alpha strike capability the GKs have.

Transports are the key as well as using our own Deep Strikers. Put your squishy infantry inside Rhinos and/or Razorbacks and they are a lot less vulnerable to storm bolters suddenly appearing.

 

Use vehicle-mounted heavy weapons to hammer the GK units that are deployed on the table. GKs make the most of elite infantry so plasma is your friend here.

 

Lastly, bring your gunships. GKs struggle to take down flyers so don't be ashamed to fly all over them.

[Leif Bearclaw]

While obviously I don't know the guy you were fighting, that just sounds like standard complaints Chaos players often trot out when beaten by loyalists (I assume you won?). For better or worse, Chaos players can be amongst the most vociferous complainers in the fanbase.

 

That list of complaints just reads like the same old gripes of the Chaos fandom have been throwing around since at least 6th edition (some bits, like 'where's my razorback?' for even longer). It often seems they won't be happy unless they get a spiky version of every loyalist option, plus all their unique Chaosy/Daemon stuff.

[Garreck]

We've done well this edition but overpowered? Don't see any of the 8th power builds featuring spacewolves. I feel like we're strong enough to compete with power builds with a balance of cunning and luck without being cheesy ourselves. Edited August 14, 2017 by Garreck

[Bulwyf]

While obviously I don't know the guy you were fighting, that just sounds like standard complaints Chaos players often trot out when beaten by loyalists (I assume you won?). For better or worse, Chaos players can be amongst the most vociferous complainers in the fanbase.

 

That list of complaints just reads like the same old gripes of the Chaos fandom have been throwing around since at least 6th edition (some bits, like 'where's my razorback?' for even longer). It often seems they won't be happy unless they get a spiky version of every loyalist option, plus all their unique Chaosy/Daemon stuff.

 

oh, I won...he offered me the handshake at top of turn three. I'm not trying to brag but he got beat pretty bad. He assaulted into my TWC with his termies and then sent in his three cultist units against my LRC and two RB to try and tie them up into combat. He was going nuts at how many times he tried to fight my Wulfen/TWC and just couldn't get past their storm shields.

[grouj]

Where's my hellforged? Where's my self healing daemons? Cultists? Marks? Mass smite and leadership shenanigans?

 

Next time tell him they are different codexes. If he wanted to play wolves then he can play them, no one is stopping him.

 

The bolter and chainsword combo I can see a complaint, but the rest is bitching for bitchings sake.

[jerrys]

 

He assaulted into my TWC... and then sent in his three cultist units against my LRC and two RB...

 

I think I see the problem here!

[Guest]

I was playing a Konor mission against a Black Legion player this past weekend. He was bitterly complaining about my Wulfen, TWC, Bjorn, Razorbacks and the chainsword/bolter options for GH.

 

He wanted to know where his stormshield on every model assault option was in his codex, where his chainsword/bolter troop option was and where his Razorback with LAC options was.

 

Are we really that cheesy in 8th? I've certainly gotten beaten in 8th by random armies so far and haven't felt particularly weak or OP. But clearly I have some bias in my SW love.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Where is our units with FNP saves (DG?)

Where is our units that all have smite (1kSons)

 etc etc...

 

He sounds like he is just making excuses for bad tactics. Even as a new player some of his tactics make me scratch my head and go "Why?"

[MaveriK]

I was playing a Konor mission against a Black Legion player this past weekend. He was bitterly complaining about my Wulfen, TWC, Bjorn, Razorbacks and the chainsword/bolter options for GH.

 

He wanted to know where his stormshield on every model assault option was in his codex, where his chainsword/bolter troop option was and where his Razorback with LAC options was.

 

Are we really that cheesy in 8th? I've certainly gotten beaten in 8th by random armies so far and haven't felt particularly weak or OP. But clearly I have some bias in my SW love.

 

What do you guys think?

You're asking the wrong questions here. Your opponent is pointing fingers at you and your army while he should be looking in the mirror.

 

It's more like your opponent is either a sore loser, a poor general or both. Don't allow other people's problems or insecurities become your problem. We have a somewhat older deck with updated FAQs. There are checks and balances made each edition through play testing and FAQs. Tell that mofo to shut up or nut up

[Gherrick]

 

I'm still trying to figure out how the heck anyone can win against the alpha strike capability the GKs have.

Transports are the key as well as using our own Deep Strikers. Put your squishy infantry inside Rhinos and/or Razorbacks and they are a lot less vulnerable to storm bolters suddenly appearing.

 

Use vehicle-mounted heavy weapons to hammer the GK units that are deployed on the table. GKs make the most of elite infantry so plasma is your friend here.

 

Lastly, bring your gunships. GKs struggle to take down flyers so don't be ashamed to fly all over them.

 

Actually, he was able to smite down my flyer in two turns...A troop-heavy list with boosted smite range is pretty frightening. Now that they have a relic banner that also grants full smite they have a solid d6 mortal wounds source every round. And don't dismiss the grand master dreadknight. Using the strategem to give him a +1S/-1AP to his heavy psilencer and heavy psycannon is just devastating. He was able to destroy one of my predators with just his heavy psycannon itself. And don't get me started on how broken the vortex is.

[Brother Hellion]

Everyone has said that about someone else's army at some point in their career. Even I have against the Tau in earlier editions. But in reality such statements are seldom true. 

 

The tau were never truly over powered in 7th edition.  And We space wolves are no different. 

 

Basically we're a different flavor of space marine; quick, hard hitting with great armor saves/invulerable saves. Yet we're small in number and often get drown by opponents who can out shoot us or Punch us more just like our codex counter parts. So the best way to work around this is to A.) Know your opponent. B.) Set up your units in the deployment zone so that it works to your benefit and not your opponent. C.) Have a plan in mind that can adapt to the situation as it changes per turn. 

 

And D.) Love your dice. Their doing most of the work so give them words of encouragement.

[Gherrick]

And D.) Love your dice. Their doing most of the work so give them words of encouragement.

TRUTH!

[Kasper_Hawser]

Honestly I'm still losing most of my games in 8th Edition. But I'm not complaining, because I can clearly identify what went wrong in each game, which is mainly not able to maximise my short range firepower and Close Combat power defensively at the correct time. 

 

I'm not going to whine that Grey Knights are OP because they have Storm Bolters Rapid 2 and each Grey Knight Strike Squad was pumping out 40 shots with Draigo nearby to provide rerolls, and he wasn't even using the Strategem to improve his strength and AP. Instead I learn that i have to deploy in a way that he won't be able to focus all the SBs into one target

 

Anyway, to answer your question Bulwyf, we are NOT OP. Never have been, never will. May be my prejudice, but I always felt that Space Wolves were always balanced in each edition, even during the days of Grey Hunter spam and Long fangs spam. Problem was everyone else and the game mechanics which shifted power to the shooting game and yet Space wolves are forced to a melee army with virtually no way to boost our shooting. And now that assault is much more easier to get, although tactically challenging, our melee prowess is back in the game.

 

For your CSM opponent, I think he did not understand your army enough to prioritise his target, and when he found out how strong Bjorn or TWC were, his kneejerk reaction was to complain about what he DIDN'T have instead of what he SHOULD have done.

 

I'm not a Chaos player but I've had my but t handed to me many times, mostly because their psychic game continues to be stronger than the Wolves, whose only psychic powerhouse is Njal. their heroes and characters are generally better at CC, if only slightly more than Wolves, but this is balanced by the fact we can take stormshields. and cultists are annoyingly cheap and numerous.

 

Everyone has said that about someone else's army at some point in their career. Even I have against the Tau in earlier editions. But in reality such statements are seldom true. 

 

The tau were never truly over powered in 7th edition.  And We space wolves are no different. 

 

Basically we're a different flavor of space marine; quick, hard hitting with great armor saves/invulerable saves. Yet we're small in number and often get drown by opponents who can out shoot us or Punch us more just like our codex counter parts. So the best way to work around this is to A.) Know your opponent. B.) Set up your units in the deployment zone so that it works to your benefit and not your opponent. C.) Have a plan in mind that can adapt to the situation as it changes per turn. 

 

And D.) Love your dice. Their doing most of the work so give them words of encouragement.

 

As Brother Blur said, with 8th edition balancing many OP elements, we now have a hope of winning provided we follow Step A, B and C. Rather than someone bringing a damn Wraithknight or Stormsurge or Imperial Knight and as a result, no matter what we do, we lose. that was what traumatized me in 7th. Just one or three GMCs or SHWK and I may as well hang up an "I lose" sign.

 

Oh well, bad memories behind me. Time to move forward.

 

@ Brotherblur, I think complaining against Tau was actually justified back in 6th Edition and even in 7th Edition. Except that Eldar was even MORE OP than Tau who at least, couldn't CC for nuts. But I've had my moments against Tau, like sweeping advancing a Riptide into oblivion, and the Hellfrost cannon freezing a Riptide too.

 

Against Eldar, I could only cry.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Kasper_Hawser

[the jeske]

The tau were never truly over powered in 7th edition.

 

 

 

True.

While obviously I don't know the guy you were fighting, that just sounds like standard complaints Chaos players often trot out when beaten by loyalists (I assume you won?). For better or worse, Chaos players can be amongst the most vociferous complainers in the fanbase.

 

That list of complaints just reads like the same old gripes of the Chaos fandom have been throwing around since at least 6th edition (some bits, like 'where's my razorback?' for even longer). It often seems they won't be happy unless they get a spiky version of every loyalist option, plus all their unique Chaosy/Daemon stuff.

Its 5th ed, and more precise end of 4th. And the "where is our drop pods" comes from three things. First we have those in fluff [unless all renegade chapters ritually destroy their razorback turrets, storm bolters etc] Second up until the legion book stuff was not given to chaos with the argument to not make them too much like loyalists, but chaos stuff [better oblits, same set up of gear but with better rules etc zerkers/possessed being worse then DC/wulfen. chosen<honor guards/WG etc] being given to loyalists.

And third is the inability of non chaos player to understand that the csm book is/was the book that for loyalist to fully expiriance, you would have to cram all marines in to one book. So while loyalist tend to view chaos as doing all right[drakes/lash+oblits], they tend to ignore the fact that those chaos armies have nothing to do with what people want to play. AND this was done over by GW by over 6-7 books, if I remember right, AND did not change much with the last codex. In fact it is a step back from the legion book, which while not the best for tournaments gave csm player the ability to play interesting and different lists.

 

 

You're asking the wrong questions here. Your opponent is pointing fingers at you and your army while he should be looking in the mirror.

 

 

But that is exactly what the chaos players did. He looked at his csm[which he should not be running if he wanted a good list] and compared them to SW troops, couldn't find anything comperable to TWC in the chaos codex[as in efficient and resilient fast moving melee unit], and was not happy with what he saw. Now that does not make SW OP, everyone agreed on that, but it does not change the fact that, if a csm player would want a mid range melee army, then the SW index is way better for it then what he has. He could of course stack up on some demons, run cultists and more fire support, but then the whole lists turns in to a sudo loyalist gunline with the difference that instead of G-man for counter and re-rolls, your runing a lord and a DP to get exact same thing.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

While obviously I don't know the guy you were fighting, that just sounds like standard complaints Chaos players often trot out when beaten by loyalists (I assume you won?). For better or worse, Chaos players can be amongst the most vociferous complainers in the fanbase.

 

That list of complaints just reads like the same old gripes of the Chaos fandom have been throwing around since at least 6th edition (some bits, like 'where's my razorback?' for even longer). It often seems they won't be happy unless they get a spiky version of every loyalist option, plus all their unique Chaosy/Daemon stuff.

Its 5th ed, and more precise end of 4th. And the "where is our drop pods" comes from three things. First we have those in fluff [unless all renegade chapters ritually destroy their razorback turrets, storm bolters etc] Second up until the legion book stuff was not given to chaos with the argument to not make them too much like loyalists, but chaos stuff [better oblits, same set up of gear but with better rules etc zerkers/possessed being worse then DC/wulfen. chosen<honor guards/WG etc] being given to loyalists.

And third is the inability of non chaos player to understand that the csm book is/was the book that for loyalist to fully expiriance, you would have to cram all marines in to one book. So while loyalist tend to view chaos as doing all right[drakes/lash+oblits], they tend to ignore the fact that those chaos armies have nothing to do with what people want to play. AND this was done over by GW by over 6-7 books, if I remember right, AND did not change much with the last codex. In fact it is a step back from the legion book, which while not the best for tournaments gave csm player the ability to play interesting and different lists.

 

 

 

No, I meant what I said. As far as I recall Chaos didn't get a Codex in 5th (which introduced Drop Pods as a viable Marine option, the old 'Drop Pod Assault rule was naff'), so the (admittedly lacklustre) 6th ed codex was the first time they 'didn't get Drop Pods'. As for 4th? I never got the complaints. Although it was rapidly outpaced by the high levels of Codex creep in 5th, at release (and early 5th) there was nothing wrong with it (other than the stigma of 'it's not the 3.5 Dex'). Every Chaos player I knew at the time loved it, I didn't play against anything other than Chaos for about 6 months because the book went down that well locally (and not lash/PM/Oblit spam, either). Even my mates who did tournaments were perfectly happy with the book.

 

And loyalists didn't get 'chaos stuff'. Centurions are not Obliterators, whose USP has always been the ability to change weapon turn to turn. Chaos doesn't have a monopoly on 'big heavy weapons guy'. Neither do they have a monopoly on 'clawed assault dude' or 'melee unit with pistol and sword'. Kinda seems the argument is that Chaos should just be the ever controversial 'Marines +1', simply because they're Chaos. To which I'd strongly disagree.

 

All your complaints can apply to pretty much any Marine book. While 8th may have gone some way to correcting the balance (not played enough to fully judge yet), I've despaired as recent years have turned the focus of SWs almost entirely onto Wulfen and TWC, models I hate and don't want to play. That's not a unique sin GW have committed to Chaos. Where's my SW Honour Guard, my SW Centurions, my SW Ironclad? BA players were sore when Wulfen came out making DC look bad. I was sad when SW didn't get a real analogue to the grav every other Loyalist Chapter got, when BAs got librarian Dreadnoughts and when GW repeatedly decided that Blood Claws are the only rookie Marines who can't shoot properly. But why does this happen? Because they want some amount of differentiation in the various Marine armies they offer.

 

Now, I'm not saying Chaos doesn't have some legitimate gripes (CSMs losing their ultra grit option is BS), and fortunately it appears GW may be finally going some way to correct the issue, with rolling out separate dexes for the Cult Legions (as a mono Slaanesh player, this is an exciting development). That also gives them the opportunity (whether they take it or not is another issue) to add some granularity to some Chaos options. For example, people complain about Khorne Berserkers being weak (don't know if they are in 8th, don't have the relevant books). When they do, it's normally along the lines of 'these are badass bloodstained WE killers who stormed the breach at Terra, they should be the hardest SOBs in the galaxy'. Yet 'Khorne Berserker' also appears to cover the fresh cannon fodder inductee a WE warband conscripts to sustain their numbers. How can one unit cover both extremes? It can't really. So ideally a WE dex should include troop 'line Berserkers' and elite 'chosen Berserkers'. That's a idea I can get wholly behind, but not 'every loyalist Marine unit with pistol and sword must be inferior to the WE basic troop choice'.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I'll say one thing: I can't blame any one unit or a few elite units for breaking a codex so far in 8th ed. I used to fear and hate the Oblit spam, but while still dangerous, its nowhere as fearful to face anymore.

 

Anyway, its really too early stage to gripe yet. Not all the codexes have been fully increased, especially the special chaos god themed ones so I'll hold judgement until I either get a few more games or after the Nurgle book comes out.

[Karhedron]

Actually, he was able to smite down my flyer in two turns...A troop-heavy list with boosted smite range is pretty frightening. Now that they have a relic banner that also grants full smite they have a solid d6 mortal wounds source every round. And don't dismiss the grand master dreadknight. Using the strategem to give him a +1S/-1AP to his heavy psilencer and heavy psycannon is just devastating. He was able to destroy one of my predators with just his heavy psycannon itself. And don't get me started on how broken the vortex is.

Hmm, perhaps a couple of Culexus Assassins would put a crimp on your opponent's style. Whilst I am not exactly a fan of such hard counters, if a player spams a particular unit/ability, I have no compunction about using something designed to counter that.

[ORKILL]

Far from OP

[Nrthstar]

Not OP. Average+. I have won, lost and tied this edition, but I do feel bad for my buddy and his Death Guard. I have tabled him three times now. But he was trying to run a pure dg list which, till the codex hits at least, lacks any real punch. Honestly Typhus gets rocked by all of our top cc