Do you think we are OP in 8th?

[Kasper_Hawser]

Not OP. Average+. I have won, lost and tied this edition, but I do feel bad for my buddy and his Death Guard. I have tabled him three times now. But he was trying to run a pure dg list which, till the codex hits at least, lacks any real punch. Honestly Typhus gets rocked by all of our top cc

 

A bit off topic, but vs Death Guard, for me it was the other way round for me. Not so much their firepower, but their psychic game. They can really pile a lot of smite wounds especially with their aura. The more of their units you leave alive, the more chances of getting the 4+ free mortal wound on your units, which really hurts when you are playing MSU. In the end, my takeaway is that you should focus fire and completely destroy a DG unit instead of just whittling them down. And don't leave your rhinos/razorbacks until its done, especially Typhus who is a tough beast.

 

My best game was against the Ultras, which had both Papa Smurf and Cato Sicarius. Despite having Centurions and alpha strike tactical squads, I managed to mitigate their damage via LOS block, then once the alpha strike was defeated, marched forward to take objectives. Hilarious game which ended up with my Stormwolf dying after chargin a rhino carrying Calgar (he was wearing artificer armour), with the Rhino actually winning.

[Yoyo ninja]

Nothing like OP, we do what we do well, but we have our weaknesses. TWC have been nerfed a little, which I think is great, they aren't the auto include they used to be. I'm finding our power armour coming back into its own, I love being able to play my Grey Hunters, Skyclaws and Long Fangs again, and not expect to loose.

[Gherrick]

Long Fangs are definitely a solid choice, doubly so if you want to spend the extra bit and put them in a fortification such as the bunker or bastion. The bunker can drop fairly quickly from LC fire, but that is still that much less heavy fire onto the LFs directly :) Also, giving the new rules on fortifications, having a much improved LoS when embarked is also nice.

[Nrthstar]

 

 

Not OP. Average+. I have won, lost and tied this edition, but I do feel bad for my buddy and his Death Guard. I have tabled him three times now. But he was trying to run a pure dg list which, till the codex hits at least, lacks any real punch. Honestly Typhus gets rocked by all of our top cc

A bit off topic, but vs Death Guard, for me it was the other way round for me. Not so much their firepower, but their psychic game. They can really pile a lot of smite wounds especially with their aura. The more of their units you leave alive, the more chances of getting the 4+ free mortal wound on your units, which really hurts when you are playing MSU. In the end, my takeaway is that you should focus fire and completely destroy a DG unit instead of just whittling them down. And don't leave your rhinos/razorbacks until its done, especially Typhus who is a tough beast.

 

My best game was against the Ultras, which had both Papa Smurf and Cato Sicarius. Despite having Centurions and alpha strike tactical squads, I managed to mitigate their damage via LOS block, then once the alpha strike was defeated, marched forward to take objectives. Hilarious game which ended up with my Stormwolf dying after chargin a rhino carrying Calgar (he was wearing artificer armour), with the Rhino actually winning.

Typing on mobile, so not gonna edit down, but Typhus has been surprisingly easy to handle, granted every time I've faced him, I threw a wrecking crew squad of wulfen, or wgtda, or Arjac at him. He hasn't really hurt me yet, which was incredibly surprising. I'll tell my buddy to focus on psychers more, but soon he'll have a complete dex and primarch anyways.

 

My last Girlyman game did not go well at all. It was the razorspam, Girlyman list, with a psycher to give null zone. I can look back and deploy differently, but I still think I would have lost. Our day and Primarch will come. One day.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

Not OP. Average+. I have won, lost and tied this edition, but I do feel bad for my buddy and his Death Guard. I have tabled him three times now. But he was trying to run a pure dg list which, till the codex hits at least, lacks any real punch. Honestly Typhus gets rocked by all of our top cc

A bit off topic, but vs Death Guard, for me it was the other way round for me. Not so much their firepower, but their psychic game. They can really pile a lot of smite wounds especially with their aura. The more of their units you leave alive, the more chances of getting the 4+ free mortal wound on your units, which really hurts when you are playing MSU. In the end, my takeaway is that you should focus fire and completely destroy a DG unit instead of just whittling them down. And don't leave your rhinos/razorbacks until its done, especially Typhus who is a tough beast.

 

My best game was against the Ultras, which had both Papa Smurf and Cato Sicarius. Despite having Centurions and alpha strike tactical squads, I managed to mitigate their damage via LOS block, then once the alpha strike was defeated, marched forward to take objectives. Hilarious game which ended up with my Stormwolf dying after chargin a rhino carrying Calgar (he was wearing artificer armour), with the Rhino actually winning.

Typing on mobile, so not gonna edit down, but Typhus has been surprisingly easy to handle, granted every time I've faced him, I threw a wrecking crew squad of wulfen, or wgtda, or Arjac at him. He hasn't really hurt me yet, which was incredibly surprising. I'll tell my buddy to focus on psychers more, but soon he'll have a complete dex and primarch anyways.

 

My last Girlyman game did not go well at all. It was the razorspam, Girlyman list, with a psycher to give null zone. I can look back and deploy differently, but I still think I would have lost. Our day and Primarch will come. One day.

 

 

Well, I haven't faced Girlyman yet, although I think my game with Calgar is a good indicator what to expect. Except Grandpa Smurf aura can reroll failed wounds as well, is too fat to fit in transport, and most OP of all, has a big ton of CP, which combined with all the recent strategems, is going to be a real fudge to handle.

 

Sigh, these kind of stuff makes me wonder how much is Matt Ward's influence.

[Ishagu]

Some teen wolf angst in this topic :-P

[TheWolfLord]

 

 

 

Not OP. Average+. I have won, lost and tied this edition, but I do feel bad for my buddy and his Death Guard. I have tabled him three times now. But he was trying to run a pure dg list which, till the codex hits at least, lacks any real punch. Honestly Typhus gets rocked by all of our top cc

 

A bit off topic, but vs Death Guard, for me it was the other way round for me. Not so much their firepower, but their psychic game. They can really pile a lot of smite wounds especially with their aura. The more of their units you leave alive, the more chances of getting the 4+ free mortal wound on your units, which really hurts when you are playing MSU. In the end, my takeaway is that you should focus fire and completely destroy a DG unit instead of just whittling them down. And don't leave your rhinos/razorbacks until its done, especially Typhus who is a tough beast.

My best game was against the Ultras, which had both Papa Smurf and Cato Sicarius. Despite having Centurions and alpha strike tactical squads, I managed to mitigate their damage via LOS block, then once the alpha strike was defeated, marched forward to take objectives. Hilarious game which ended up with my Stormwolf dying after chargin a rhino carrying Calgar (he was wearing artificer armour), with the Rhino actually winning.

Typing on mobile, so not gonna edit down, but Typhus has been surprisingly easy to handle, granted every time I've faced him, I threw a wrecking crew squad of wulfen, or wgtda, or Arjac at him. He hasn't really hurt me yet, which was incredibly surprising. I'll tell my buddy to focus on psychers more, but soon he'll have a complete dex and primarch anyways.

My last Girlyman game did not go well at all. It was the razorspam, Girlyman list, with a psycher to give null zone. I can look back and deploy differently, but I still think I would have lost. Our day and Primarch will come. One day.

 

Well, I haven't faced Girlyman yet, although I think my game with Calgar is a good indicator what to expect. Except Grandpa Smurf aura can reroll failed wounds as well, is too fat to fit in transport, and most OP of all, has a big ton of CP, which combined with all the recent strategems, is going to be a real fudge to handle.

 

Sigh, these kind of stuff makes me wonder how much is Matt Ward's influence.

None is Matt Wards influence. Simon Grant got quite frustrated at the Matt Ward suggestion in the Space Wolves Facebook group and categorically stated hes had no input since Fantasy End Times.

[antoineH05]

I am fielding my quite OP list at that moment (and its a hell fun list to play) that has not lost a single match up yet (about 8 matches against different lists even the new codices).

 

Its not a shooting list at all but the Alpha Strike can (and is usually )devastating if charges don't miss and if the guy is not prepared (1750 pts no 3x times same choice except troops).

 

2x10 Wolf guard in Jet Packs with 7xStorm Bolters and Shields + 3 Thunder & Shield  (huho 20x 3++ guys pumping 3 attacks each and 4 attacks for pack leader, and usually around 56 S4 shots reroll 1 to wound due to Arjac's and his S10 Hammer at 12" now). Wulfen in range means 1 more attack too.

 

The good combination is when I have an attacking army list in front of me a bit too confident and that advance on turn 1 so i can have the reroll charge from my Wulfen when dropping down. I usually field 5 wulfen that I try to hide against LOS of targets that can manage them followed by 3x10 Blood Claws runing with a Wolf guard also with shield. The magic is even better with first turn with a rune priest jet pack. I could hack through Conscripts lists too, as they do not provide enough firepower. Usually I just deploy normally against hordes or not if they make a mistakes.

 

People usually Focus my Wulfens that finally provide the bait i usually need to rush into them. 3x10 Blood claws pack with Lukas & Wulfens means usually 55 attacks each packs on charge hitting on 2's and reroll's 1 on Damage if Arjac's is alive. Trust me, Orks Boyz horde cried quickly when I killed 3 packs of 30 boyz with a charge of my 3 packs.

 

It actually crash down next to flyers or primary targets. Those don't like to be charged by Jet packs that punch out 10 Hammers hits + the cross of the storm bolters at S4 + rerolls 1 to wound. I usually charge with a culexus 0.3" in front of them and then Smiting psykers that didn't place correctly are suddenly unable to smite you and gets +2 on all psychics. Multiple charge is the way to go.

 

It really depends of charge and that can be helped with Wulfens surviving turn1 or if I place correctly and advance correctly with them, I am able to have them at 6" of the Wolf Guards. Positioning is so important.

 

The list Synergize really well with Libarian and Jet pack on 2000 pts with Librarius psychic (rerolls/pychic fortress against list with heavy psykers) and Culexus providing a -2 on rolls for deny and casting.

Edited August 17, 2017 by antoineH05

[hammer grimblood]

If we're OP then nobody has seen flyer spam yet. I played against Calgar, 3 dev centurions, 1 Iron clad, 8 snipers, Telion, 2 5 man tac squads, 2 Storm Talons and 1 Stormraven, 1800 pts. I didn't get stomped but I was handily beaten. Bjorn and Dread spam with Long Fangs can do little when 3 targets with anti-tank weapons are nigh invulnerable and I was outmaneuvered. The only mistake my opponent made was dropping his doom squad down and wiping my 3 min squads of grey hunters off their objectives. That plan lost me the game but not before giving Bjorn and Murderfang clear lines to Calgar and the Ironclad which were ripped apart by Bjorn :D 

[Kasper_Hawser]

If we're OP then nobody has seen flyer spam yet. I played against Calgar, 3 dev centurions, 1 Iron clad, 8 snipers, Telion, 2 5 man tac squads, 2 Storm Talons and 1 Stormraven, 1800 pts. I didn't get stomped but I was handily beaten. Bjorn and Dread spam with Long Fangs can do little when 3 targets with anti-tank weapons are nigh invulnerable and I was outmaneuvered. The only mistake my opponent made was dropping his doom squad down and wiping my 3 min squads of grey hunters off their objectives. That plan lost me the game but not before giving Bjorn and Murderfang clear lines to Calgar and the Ironclad which were ripped apart by Bjorn

 

Sadly in terms of alpha strike, Wolves no longer hold the title of best alpha strike thanks to huge drop pod cost increase. Then again, I've yet to try a mass termy list, but arming them with combi weapons is prohibitively expensive now. 

 

Ah Bjorn, the old Dreadnought has proven himself useful in almost every game I've had, especially small games where despite his cost, he is an effective counter to any big stuff one might bring in a small game, like Daemon princes and Avatars. 

 

Even then though, Bjorn is far from OP as despite being T8, he has no invlun save, so once a Lascannon or melta hits and penetrates him, he only has the 5+ ignore wound to fallback on. Problem is if more than one Lascannon or melta penetrates him, chances are he can't save enough to survive unless he makes his 6+ armour save for Lascannons.

 

But in close combat, goodluck hurting Bjorn without a S8 weapon. Fortunately, not many CC weapons can damage like a Lascannon. Well, the warp dust addict Draigo does come to mind. Not to mention those clowns who can take melta pistols very cheaply.

 

I'm wondering if its too OP for Bjorn to get back his 5+ invuln save. I guess I shouldn't be too greedy, few character models are T8 as it is, and even with 3+ armour, he'll still get a save against Lascannons, even better if the cover save spell is cast.

[TheWolfLord]

 

If we're OP then nobody has seen flyer spam yet. I played against Calgar, 3 dev centurions, 1 Iron clad, 8 snipers, Telion, 2 5 man tac squads, 2 Storm Talons and 1 Stormraven, 1800 pts. I didn't get stomped but I was handily beaten. Bjorn and Dread spam with Long Fangs can do little when 3 targets with anti-tank weapons are nigh invulnerable and I was outmaneuvered. The only mistake my opponent made was dropping his doom squad down and wiping my 3 min squads of grey hunters off their objectives. That plan lost me the game but not before giving Bjorn and Murderfang clear lines to Calgar and the Ironclad which were ripped apart by Bjorn :D

 

 

Sadly in terms of alpha strike, Wolves no longer hold the title of best alpha strike thanks to huge drop pod cost increase. Then again, I've yet to try a mass termy list, but arming them with combi weapons is prohibitively expensive now. 

 

Ah Bjorn, the old Dreadnought has proven himself useful in almost every game I've had, especially small games where despite his cost, he is an effective counter to any big stuff one might bring in a small game, like Daemon princes and Avatars. 

 

Even then though, Bjorn is far from OP as despite being T8, he has no invlun save, so once a Lascannon or melta hits and penetrates him, he only has the 5+ ignore wound to fallback on. Problem is if more than one Lascannon or melta penetrates him, chances are he can't save enough to survive unless he makes his 6+ armour save for Lascannons.

 

But in close combat, goodluck hurting Bjorn without a S8 weapon. Fortunately, not many CC weapons can damage like a Lascannon. Well, the warp dust addict Draigo does come to mind. Not to mention those clowns who can take melta pistols very cheaply.

 

I'm wondering if its too OP for Bjorn to get back his 5+ invuln save. I guess I shouldn't be too greedy, few character models are T8 as it is, and even with 3+ armour, he'll still get a save against Lascannons, even better if the cover save spell is cast.

I've been thinking the same thing about Bjorn and I honestly think for his points either a 2+ save or a 5++ wouldn't be unreasonable.

[Garreck]

Bjorn doesn't need more. If you're maneuvering appropriately he can only ever be shot at by assassins or snipers, and he should always be smack in the middle of your army anyway to maximize reroll bubble so he should only be in melee when you decide he should be in melee.

 

When that time comes, he's going to buzz-saw his target, hitting on 2s re-rolling, then wounding many things on 2s, sometimes 3s but also re-rolling. Then he's going to do d6 damage on whatever they don't save.

 

He brings a buff to your army's shooting, he brings a command point, your opponent almost can't shoot at him, and will have to work to assault him on their own terms. And then they're going to have to get through 8 T8 wounds, with Bjorn having a natural 3+ and then a 5+ against every point of damage taken (to include mortal wounds) and then a further 6+ if you give him that warlord trait.

 

He seems plenty worth his points.

[Gherrick]

Bjorn is fine as is. He's one of the few character vehicles under 10 wounds, and he is priced appropriately. Being non-infantry, snipers aren't a threat to him.

[hammer grimblood]

Bjorn is fine as is. He's one of the few character vehicles under 10 wounds, and he is priced appropriately. Being non-infantry, snipers aren't a threat to him.

6's still cause mortal wounds do they not? Yes the snipers are fishing for 6's but being able to put mortal wounds on him still constitutes a threat in my book.

[schwachmat3000]

I had a couple test games and 2 serious 2.000 pts games in 8th Edition. 
I played against Ynnari and Ad Mech, both very powerful armies.

I wrecked both of them quite easily with my 8th edition wolves 

 

For me wolves definitely got a small boost this edition. Jump packs (for RP/WP) and Termis with their "deep strike" give us new mobility options.
For transport I now rely on 3 razorbacks with Assault or Lascannon filled with 6 Blood Claws.

 

Ah..yes... and Bjorn is a beast. One-hitted Belisarius Cawl twice ;-)

Edited August 21, 2017 by schwachmat3000

[Boyka]

I had a couple test games and 2 serious 2.000 pts games in 8th Edition. 

I played against Ynnari and Ad Mech, both very powerful armies.

 

I wrecked both of them quite easily with my 8th edition wolves 

 

For me wolves definitely got a small boost this edition. Jump packs (for RP/WP) and Termis with their "deep strike" give us new mobility options.

For transport I now rely on 3 razorbacks with Assault or Lascannon filled with 6 Blood Claws.

 

Ah..yes... and Bjorn is a beast. One-hitted Belisarius Cawl twice ;-)

How are you running your Termis?

[Brother Hellion]

 

How are you running your Termis?

 

 Probably must running them stormbolter/stormshield combo for three out of the five, then the probably having just an assault cannon or heavy flamer while the pack leader must be taking stormshield/thunder hammer. Its a cheap but survivable means.

 

Also, surprised this thread is still going on as it has. But recently I went to an ITC format tournament and lost. 2/3 games. List is as follows:

 

Bjorn with helfrost/heavy flamer

Runepriest on bike

Wolf priest bare bones

3x GH with plasmagun/wgpl combi-plasma

2x Razorbacks with assault cannons

Dreadnaught with assault cannon, stormbolter

Thunderwolves with ss/frostweapons

 Wulfen

and my tricked out stormwolf

 

Short story- I lost to tau drone swarm and to a khorne theme CSM army (who was a little impatient at times). Did beat primaris ultramarines with heavy Assassin support units and grayfax. 

 

Part of the loss was due to me being misplacing Bjorn at crucial situations. He's good but he needs support in order to perform his best. 

 

So the next time anyone says we're over powered, remember that any army can be taken down with bad placement.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

How are you running your Termis?

 

 Probably must running them stormbolter/stormshield combo for three out of the five, then the probably having just an assault cannon or heavy flamer while the pack leader must be taking stormshield/thunder hammer. Its a cheap but survivable means.

 

Also, surprised this thread is still going on as it has. But recently I went to an ITC format tournament and lost. 2/3 games. List is as follows:

 

Bjorn with helfrost/heavy flamer

Runepriest on bike

Wolf priest bare bones

3x GH with plasmagun/wgpl combi-plasma

2x Razorbacks with assault cannons

Dreadnaught with assault cannon, stormbolter

Thunderwolves with ss/frostweapons

 Wulfen

and my tricked out stormwolf

 

Short story- I lost to tau drone swarm and to a khorne theme CSM army (who was a little impatient at times). Did beat primaris ultramarines with heavy Assassin support units and grayfax. 

 

Part of the loss was due to me being misplacing Bjorn at crucial situations. He's good but he needs support in order to perform his best. 

 

So the next time anyone says we're over powered, remember that any army can be taken down with bad placement.

 

 

Amen. I can say that most games I lost was due to bad placement rather than outright cheese. For Space Wolves, because we're not as fast as others, we generally need to be a bit tight and can't afford to split our forces too far out. Unless you go TWC heavy which I'm not a big fan of.

[schwachmat3000]

Bjorn shielded by a Ven Dread with Axe/Shield worked for me. Only downside is the slower movement of the Ven Dread, but thats just until you come in charge distance. 

 

Termi Armour is also useful for example on rune/wolf priests since you can deep strike them without any uncertainties in this edition ;)

 

Other option are jump packs here.

[Nharvey89]

1k wolves vs 1k Grey Knights, opponent made a couple bad moves but it was over by turn 3. Normaly I run a turret dread and shield dread but today I went with Bjorn and a shield dread. Worked beautifully. Also had a flyer, not much he could do about that with what he had.

 

Point I'm trying to make it I'm not finding us op and some armies I am having bad times against, dark elder particularly, but against marines of all kinds I an finding we generally have a pretty easy time against. So now not op vs all but as is the way with most armies in 8th we seem to have our sweet spot I feel.

[Gherrick]

Well, I can say that Tau can humble us quick with a skilled player, even without using commander spam. He had SO many drones out for ablative wounds, and it was nuts burning them down so I could actually start inflicting wounds on the real threats, like his riptide and Longstrike. The sheer volume of S8 AP-4 the Tau have is just plain scary.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Well, I can say that Tau can humble us quick with a skilled player, even without using commander spam. He had SO many drones out for ablative wounds, and it was nuts burning them down so I could actually start inflicting wounds on the real threats, like his riptide and Longstrike. The sheer volume of S8 AP-4 the Tau have is just plain scary.

 

I thought Longstrike is a vehicle and can't be protected by Drones. the Drones as I understood can only protect those who are infantry. Correct me if I'm wrong. But yeah, I heard that they have lots of options to protect even their infantry from otherwise fatal wounds.

 

I wouldn't mind facing a list like that rather  than all the flying Gundam wannabe nonsense. These days I noticed my meta even started painting them to emulate the ones from Gundam Seed, Double O, Unicorn and of course, Char Aznable.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Kasper_Hawser

[Baluc]

The ironic truth is most C:CSM are the most inflexible and bias subset of meq players.

 

Once they have settled on a group think opinion on a unit that opionion is sacred. They are unable to seperate the competitive aspect of the game from their head canon and it comes out in public in the manner of your opponent.

 

The intersection of traits, and strategems hase changed what is good about csm from raw stats to almost pure strategy. He, your opponent, lacks a tactical understanding of his army and units and will likely lose most of his games. Not because the strength of his army but because he is unprepared to play the game.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Baluc

[Kasper_Hawser]

The ironic truth is most C:CSM are the most inflexible and bias subset of meq players.

 

Once they have settled on a group think opinion on a unit that opionion is sacred. They are unable to seperate the competitive aspect of the game from their head canon and it comes out in public in the manner of your opponent.

 

The intersection of traits, and strategems hase changed what is good about csm from raw stats to almost pure strategy. He, your opponent, lacks a tactical understanding of his army and units and will likely lose most of his games. Not because the strength of his army but because he is unprepared to play the game.

 

Don't know if I can apply that Group Opinion thing to my CSM player mates, but they're certainly inflexible in their unit selection. As you said, the internet opinion has been about how sucky actual PA CSM is and as a result, so few CSM players I know bothers with them, valid reasons or no.

 

Just as I don't want to be punished for not playing TWC in the past and present, i also don't want CSM to be penalized for bringing CSM too. I want a proper loyalist vs traitor fight, not constantly whittling down cultists.

 

Speaking of which, the new Nurgle Plague Marines might just convince me to get the new Primaris units to help deal with them, especially Hellblasters. With so many high toughness and possible multi wound units, I don't think Grey Hunters have the fire power or BC have the punch to take them down, especially if they all have the disgusting resilient rule.

[Bulwyf]

None of the CSM players in my meta use regular CMS troops. It is all cultists with elites/vehicles/demons/characters. It is a little depressing to want to recreate iconic fights only to fight foot slogging cultists surrounding renegade knights or some such.

 

I do think regular CSM need to get back the option for both chainsword and bolter like GH have. It might make more people willing to use them.