Strike Squads vs Terminators

[Fahlnor]

What's everyone's take on Strike Squads vs. Terminators?

 

Point for point, they now seem reasonably comparable. The damage output of the Strike Squad is slightly higher, but degrades faster. The durability of the Terminators is slightly higher, but they have a higher investment cost.

 

My instinct is that I prefer Terminators, but that's in a vacuum of one versus the other. In an army which includes other units but which must include Troops, our cheapest buy-in would be five-man Strike Squads. Would that be preferable in order to spend more points elsewhere?

 

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on which of the two you would take and why.

 

Thanks!

[Seizeman]

Strike squads are great generalist and very efficient offensively. You should always play a solid base of 15 or 20 strikes. They die super easily if in the open, so they must always be transported, in razorbacks or stormravens.

 

Terminators are some of the worst piles of garbage in the game and the worst unit in the codex. They are really inefficient both offensively and defensively and I (and anyone in their right mind) would advise you to stay as far away from them as possible. Just play paladins instead.

[skinomyteeth]

They actually work very well together. Yes the strikes are much more 'efficient', and the termies hang around a lot longer, but in some cases, strikes can be used to screen termies, or termies can protect strikes before that all important alpha.

 

But the answer is all termies, all the time: they just look so much cooler!

Edited August 14, 2017 by skinomyteeth

[Brother Captain Sirus]

I currently run a mixture, so my list would more than likely be earen in anything above casual play but thats all i do currently so in terms of gameplay:

Strike Squads - i use two, either both in an LRC with a Brotherhood Champion or one group in a razorback with Champion and the other adding its bolters to the alpha strike group.

Firstly they are cheap and can throw out a good weight of stormbolters shots, and hold objectives well for a low point investment. Secondly they crumple at a stiff breeze if it has high volume of shots or good AP. Best use i've found for them is to Gate of Infinity to an outlying objective in the late game to clear it of defenders after they have added their fire and any additional attacks to a round or two of combat.

Terminators: for all they are getting a bad rep for not being as good as paladins, they are far more survivable than PAGKs and are far better suited to holding mid board objectives as they have the save and wounds to take more of a beaten in the face of an opposing army. Since obsec has returned Terminators have a role that paladins cannot fill, holding an objective against elites, this is their major strength now to hold the most likely contested objectives and hopefully survive long enough to make it count, these guys are now the anvil to the paladins hammer. And using them together can yield good results, i use 1 squad of 5 terminators in my list alongside a unit of 5 paladins.

 

So to answer your question i use two 5man strike squads and one 5man Terminator squad, as they are better suited for certain types of play and having both within my army grants me a little extra flexibility on the tabletop.

[Gentlemanloser]

Terminators are jank. No reason to ever use them when we have Paladin that are only 7 points more.

 

Not sure GKT take the crown as worst unit in the dex though.

 

I think both our Techmarine and Crowe are contenders for that honour.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Adeptus]

Terminators are some of the worst piles of garbage in the game and the worst unit in the codex.

That's a bit much. They're not as cool as Paladins, but they're still pretty darn good.

[Fahlnor]

I'm somewhat surprised to find people so strongly in favour of Strike Squads. I appreciate that Terminators are not as efficient as Paladins, but surely they fill different roles in different slots? A 5-man unit of Terminators is significantly more durable than a 10-man Strike Squad and with ObSec is significantly better equipped to hold objectives than Paladins.

 

What detachments does everyone use for your armies? Are you paying for three Troops units to take a Battalion and the three CP that comes with it? Or are you ditching the CP in order to avoid paying what you feel is a Troops tax?

 

Do you think that Terminators have any inherent flaws beyond the fact that Paladins are better?

[Gentlemanloser]

Inherant flaws.

 

1 lower ld than ever other Terminator unit.

 

Pay more for our ranged special weapons and have lost relentless.

 

Ob Sec really isn't that big a deal. You'll be facing objectives held by other ob sec units, in larger numbers than the terminators. We still need to just clear the enemy.

 

CP are so powerful the Battalion is almost mandatory. And with Strikes in Razors being actually useful its not much of a tax. 1 HQ (of which we have lots of great chic ed) and three 5 man strike squads for 3 CP.

 

I guess you could plump for RG instead.

[casb1965]

Inherant flaws.

 

1 lower ld than ever other Terminator unit.

 

Pay more for our ranged special weapons and have lost relentless.

 

Ob Sec really isn't that big a deal. You'll be facing objectives held by other ob sec units, in larger numbers than the terminators. We still need to just clear the enemy.

 

CP are so powerful the Battalion is almost mandatory. And with Strikes in Razors being actually useful its not much of a tax. 1 HQ (of which we have lots of great chic ed) and three 5 man strike squads for 3 CP.

 

I guess you could plump for RG instead.

 

2 HQ required for a Battalion but that's by the by.

 

I'm guessing the choice between Terminators and Strike squads can also depend oin what your opponent is bringing to the table and will vary greatly depending on the local meta.

[Adeptus]

Re: Leadership. I think it's important to remember that Terminators and Strike Squads are the same soldiers, just wearing different armour. If we think the base LD of Terminators should be 8, do we also think that Strike Squads should be base 8? Unlike other chapters, Terminators are not automatically Veterans.

 

I don't mind our Terminators. They're a solid unit. Paladins are better, pound for pound, that's absolutely true but I don't think you'd be hamstringing your list or putting yourself at an undue disadvantage by taking Terminators in your army. They're certainly not as badly off as Purifiers.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd put Strikes at base 8. We're supposed to be fearless (and we used to be). Psycho indoctrination and facing the most terrifying enemies the Imperium has to face.

 

Or give us all fearless again, and leave Ld as is. Like Deathwatch Terminators.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Inherant flaws.

1 lower ld than ever other Terminator unit.

Pay more for our ranged special weapons and have lost relentless.

Ob Sec really isn't that big a deal. You'll be facing objectives held by other ob sec units, in larger numbers than the terminators. We still need to just clear the enemy.

CP are so powerful the Battalion is almost mandatory. And with Strikes in Razors being actually useful its not much of a tax. 1 HQ (of which we have lots of great chic ed) and three 5 man strike squads for 3 CP.

I guess you could plump for RG instead.

I wouldnt say the lower leadership is a huge concern, as 5 terminators with 2 wounds still need to lose 3 models in a turn before they have a chance to loose 1 to battleshock, which is rerollable through atsknf, and the chance of rolling 2 6s back to back is unlikely.

Obviously other modifiers can come into play from some terror units but the -1 ld shouldnt make you write off terminators.

Obsec is an interesting one, due to units having to be within 3" of an objective, so if you have terminators sitting around the marker you can actively deny the space an enemy needs to place more models within range, effectively letting 5 terminators hold an objective against another Obsec unit, now if you have your terminators supported you can deny more space and make the situation more favourable.

[Holier Than Thou]

Re: Leadership. I think it's important to remember that Terminators and Strike Squads are the same soldiers, just wearing different armour. If we think the base LD of Terminators should be 8, do we also think that Strike Squads should be base 8? Unlike other chapters, Terminators are not automatically Veterans.

 

I don't mind our Terminators. They're a solid unit. Paladins are better, pound for pound, that's absolutely true but I don't think you'd be hamstringing your list or putting yourself at an undue disadvantage by taking Terminators in your army. They're certainly not as badly off as Purifiers.

 

Well if we read the blurb for Terminator squads in the new Codex, Games Workshop themselves state that a newly  trained Grey Knight is the equivalent of the most elite soldiers from other Adeptus Astartes chapters. (Not got my book with me so can't quote word for word). To me, the fact they've written this and then given them lower leadership than other veterans is laughable.

[Adeptus]

 

Re: Leadership. I think it's important to remember that Terminators and Strike Squads are the same soldiers, just wearing different armour. If we think the base LD of Terminators should be 8, do we also think that Strike Squads should be base 8? Unlike other chapters, Terminators are not automatically Veterans.

 

I don't mind our Terminators. They're a solid unit. Paladins are better, pound for pound, that's absolutely true but I don't think you'd be hamstringing your list or putting yourself at an undue disadvantage by taking Terminators in your army. They're certainly not as badly off as Purifiers.

 

Well if we read the blurb for Terminator squads in the new Codex, Games Workshop themselves state that a newly  trained Grey Knight is the equivalent of the most elite soldiers from other Adeptus Astartes chapters. (Not got my book with me so can't quote word for word). To me, the fact they've written this and then given them lower leadership than other veterans is laughable.

 

Old age and treachery will always beat youth and skill. I don't mind at all that our troops have the same LD as troops in other SM forces.

[Gentlemanloser]

I can just imagine the 100 GKT at Armegeddon being more scared of Angron than the other marines there. ;)

[Seizeman]

Playing strike squads is not a tax, you are playing them anyway because of how efficient they are. Of course, they aren't good at killing big stuff and surviving enemy fire, so you need other units for support. About CPs, you want HQs and strike squads, so you get your battalion naturaly for your first 6 points, and you don't need more than that. Sometimes you can fill a vanguard detachment for an extra point, but otherwise is almost impossible to fill another detachment without severely handicapping your army, so there's no point in loosing your sleep over it.

 

And no, terminators are not "pretty darn good". They are extremely overcosted. They cost 48 points while a Space Marine terminator costs 40 and its better than the GK one. And SM terminators are barely playable anyway because of how vulnerable they are to multidamage weapons. Paladins are literally twice as durable against multiwound weapons and 50% more deadly for a small points increase (even when compared to Space marine terminators),

 

The extra leadership and Obsec are pretty much irrelevant. Enemy troops will have more models anyway, so it's not very relevant. Also they are not durable enough to hold an objective by themselves. But anyway, I've played a ton of 8th edition games and it almost never happens that there's more than a unit contesting an objective. You usually kill the enemy before taking the objective (except for vehicles, but that's of no relevance to obsec anyway), specially with how grey knights play. So having obsec, while nice to have, is totally inconsequential.

 

In summary, there's no reason ever to take terminators with GKs. Anyone who tries to convince you otherwise is absolutely clueless.

[Gentlemanloser]

Tired musings.

 

After the Battalion, we could take an Auxilliary detachment with RG for 8CP.

 

Or stuff him into a patrol or 1CP detachment for even more. But you have to take other space marine units then.

[Seizeman]

Guilliman is not worth its points if he's not buffing shooty ultramarine units. Also he can't deepstrike or be transported, so it does not synergize at all with our strategy.

[Danarc]

I play with 3x10 pagk. Every time. And they are awesome. An alpha strike devastating. There is no comparison with termy.

Termy are more durable, but not so much, and incredibly overpriced. I started to convert my termy into pally. Pally could be the only way to play TDA with GK right now, but they are still under pagk in my opinion.

OS for termy is pretty but most of time useless. 5 termy will be in inferiority most of time, and every troop will have OS. They shoot only 20 shots for a too high price. TDA in 8 isn't a guarantee and the high price make them less useful. SM termy are much better for a lesser price (and they can have storm shields)

[Godeskian]

3*10? Not 6*5 for additional smiting?

[casb1965]

3*10? Not 6*5 for additional smiting?

 

It looks like he's deep striking his PAGKs so having 6 units of them would require a further 6 units on table before deep strike, using 3*10 means only 3 units on table.

[Seizeman]

You can always combat squad those units, but you loose some justicars. If you are playing so many strikes, a single 10-man unit is good for stratagems and psychic buffs.

[Adeptus]

I can just imagine the 100 GKT at Armegeddon being more scared of Angron than the other marines there.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to insist that lower LD = more cowardly. The opening scene of 'The Emperors Gift' gives us a great example of Hyperion's over eagerness and lack of experience causing the death of one of his squadmates, which is exactly the sort of thing battleschock represents. 40K lacks the granularity to make daemons drive 'normal' warriors insance while Grey Knights fight on, we have a 'once-size-fits-all' stat for courage, morale, discipline, leadership, that applies equally in all instances and against all foes. The abstraction is a necessary part of the game. And I know that you know all that, lol!

 

And no, terminators are not "pretty darn good". They are extremely overcosted... Anyone who tries to convince you otherwise is absolutely clueless.

Mate, I know on the internet everything is either 100% pure awesomesauce or it's total unplayable garbage with noting ever in the middle, but my dude you need to turn down the hyperbole.

 

If you take a ten man squad of Terminators, you're overpaying by what, 40 points? 60? How often do you imagine that 40-60 points is going to cost you the game? And if you're only taking a five man squad then you halve that number! Now if you want to consider that "extremely" overcosted then you and I are using very different definitions of "extremely".

[Seizeman]

By taking terminators you are overpaying by about 13 points per model. That's 130 points for a 10 man unit, wich is pretty much the definition of "extremely overcosted".

[Adeptus]

By taking terminators you are overpaying by about 13 points per model. That's 130 points for a 10 man unit, wich is pretty much the definition of "extremely overcosted".

That is a ridiculous assertion. Overcosted by 13 points per model?

 

Please.