Strike Squads vs Terminators

[Seizeman]

Space marine terminators are better than GK ones and they are very bad at 40 points. GK terminators should cost 35 points at most to be a reasonable choice. At any more than that, they are strictly inferior to paladins.

[Gentlemanloser]

Leadership does cover bravery. Not dissengenuous at all.

 

Leadership.

This details how courageous, determined or self controlled a model is.

 

 

So with all the extreme psycho conditioning a GK goes through, just to become a GK. With all the mind breaking exposure to the Warp they have to be conditioned against, which breaks the minds of others.

 

A GK is less brave, determined or self controlled?

[Adeptus]

They're just as brave, self controlled or disciplined as a normal Astartes, which is totally fine.

[Myunch]

I get the Leadership thing, I'd like to see them with a Ld 9 on the Justicar and Ld 8 on the rest, but in actuality... what is this really going to affect aside from maybe casting Purge Soul?

[casb1965]

Space marine terminators are better than GK ones and they are very bad at 40 points. GK terminators should cost 35 points at most to be a reasonable choice. At any more than that, they are strictly inferior to paladins.

 

How much are you costing 1pt of leadership at to get to 35 points per GK Terminator?

 

Certainly not -5 when you add back in the psychic powers SMT don't get (+1 to invun anyone? GoI anyone?), Rites of Banishment and Daemon Hunter SMT don't get, +1 to deny the witch, -1 to cast powers (which SMT can't do) I don't actually see anything that makes a SMT better than a GKT or that they get anything that our's don't.

 

As for the Terminators are inferior to Paladins well no :cuss Sherlock, isn't a Paladin what all Terminators aspire to become.

[Helycon]

 

Space marine terminators are better than GK ones and they are very bad at 40 points. GK terminators should cost 35 points at most to be a reasonable choice. At any more than that, they are strictly inferior to paladins.

 

How much are you costing 1pt of leadership at to get to 35 points per GK Terminator?

 

Certainly not -5 when you add back in the psychic powers SMT don't get (+1 to invun anyone? GoI anyone?), Rites of Banishment and Daemon Hunter SMT don't get, +1 to deny the witch, -1 to cast powers (which SMT can't do) I don't actually see anything that makes a SMT better than a GKT or that they get anything that our's don't.

 

As for the Terminators are inferior to Paladins well no Sherlock, isn't a Paladin what all Terminators aspire to become.

 

Rites of Banishment is a watered down Smite, so that's not necessarily a buff. The Botherhood of Psykers rule is pretty much our version of chapter tactics; something Space Marine Termninators have a different tactic for and should not be added to unit pricing. 

 

What Seizeman is referring to, is the fact Space Marine Terminators come with Power Fists as standard, which pretty much wound everything on a 4+ at worst.

 

The entire point is, that due to the fact GKT are this expensive, there is no reason to take them over Paladins, whichg cost a tiny bit more, but are a lot better. They have the same loadout options, but with more attacks, more wounds, the Paragon has better WS, better leadership, etc. It's not fluffwise they are better, but ruleswise the difference in points is too small to skip Paladins over Terminators.

[Holier Than Thou]

They're just as brave, self controlled or disciplined as a normal Astartes, which is totally fine.

 

It would be totally fine............if Games Workshop didn't constantly state they are so much better than a normal Astartes. As I've said before, the increase from Leadership 7 to 8 would have a negligible effect in-game, what with our small units and re-rollable morale. It's the fact they keep saying in the fluff that Grey Knights are above and beyond Space Marines yet have given them stats that really don't reflect this at all. In fluff they are Marines turned up to 11. In game they are Marines with mind bullets and fancy standard equipment (but who's special equipment isn't as special as the Marines' special equipment).

[Adeptus]

 

They're just as brave, self controlled or disciplined as a normal Astartes, which is totally fine.

 

It would be totally fine............if Games Workshop didn't constantly state they are so much better than a normal Astartes. As I've said before, the increase from Leadership 7 to 8 would have a negligible effect in-game, what with our small units and re-rollable morale. It's the fact they keep saying in the fluff that Grey Knights are above and beyond Space Marines yet have given them stats that really don't reflect this at all. In fluff they are Marines turned up to 11. In game they are Marines with mind bullets and fancy standard equipment (but who's special equipment isn't as special as the Marines' special equipment).

 

Gotta remember that for all their training, a marine in a tactical squad has actual battlefield experience having served his time in the scout company. A Grey Knight may literally be 'fresh out of the academy' and taking on a bloodthirster on his first day. And you've got to allow for GW hyperbole, for the fact that Astartes go through their own psychoindoctrination, and the fact that at the top end of the leadership scale is already pretty crowded. In a 100 scale, I'd expect to see an Astartes at ~75 and a GK at ~80, with a bonus to fear and insanity tests when fighting daemons and an immunity to daemonic posession tests. But we are working on a scale one tenth that size that doesn't accurately mirror the 'realities' of the 41st Millennium (the presence of a single Great Daemon on the tabletop should be an auto-win against any Astra Militarum force as all the normal guardsmen are instantly driven insane, as an example) so within the scale and scope of the 40K rules, I'm totally fine with out troops having the same LD as normal Space Marines.

[Danarc]

It doesen't matter. We were a chapter of pure veterans. We don't need scouts because our training make an astartes like a veteran. So we should be like a veterans (as before).

[Fahlnor]

Well, this got a bit more intense than I expected...!

 

Lots of interesting points raised. Looking through them, I think I take a different position on the question than most:

 

• Terminators aren't the most points-efficient unit when considered in a vacuum, but they have a place as a unit of ObSec objective holders who can unlock Command Points for the army.
• If only for fluff reasons, it seems ridiculous to say that there is literally no reason to ever take them.
• Because I think they look really cool, I'll probably continue to bring a unit or two of Terminators with halberds in my Troops slots

 

YMMV!

 

:)

[hmk17]

I think the real sting here is that we gained Ob Sec for them, but then GW dropped it that everyone else was getting it.  

[Danarc]

Well, this got a bit more intense than I expected...!

 

Lots of interesting points raised. Looking through them, I think I take a different position on the question than most:

 

 

• Terminators aren't the most points-efficient unit when considered in a vacuum, but they have a place as a unit of ObSec objective holders who can unlock Command Points for the army.
• If only for fluff reasons, it seems ridiculous to say that there is literally no reason to ever take them.
• Because I think they look really cool, I'll probably continue to bring a unit or two of Terminators with halberds in my Troops slots

 

YMMV!

 

:)

really? I abdolutely love the model but I already have difficulties to create a list due to uor high cost. Insert termy lokks (to me) only a waste of point, even if they have an amazing model.

[casb1965]

 

 

Space marine terminators are better than GK ones and they are very bad at 40 points. GK terminators should cost 35 points at most to be a reasonable choice. At any more than that, they are strictly inferior to paladins.

 

How much are you costing 1pt of leadership at to get to 35 points per GK Terminator?

 

Certainly not -5 when you add back in the psychic powers SMT don't get (+1 to invun anyone? GoI anyone?), Rites of Banishment and Daemon Hunter SMT don't get, +1 to deny the witch, -1 to cast powers (which SMT can't do) I don't actually see anything that makes a SMT better than a GKT or that they get anything that our's don't.

 

As for the Terminators are inferior to Paladins well no Sherlock, isn't a Paladin what all Terminators aspire to become.

 

Rites of Banishment is a watered down Smite, so that's not necessarily a buff. The Botherhood of Psykers rule is pretty much our version of chapter tactics; something Space Marine Termninators have a different tactic for and should not be added to unit pricing. 

 

What Seizeman is referring to, is the fact Space Marine Terminators come with Power Fists as standard, which pretty much wound everything on a 4+ at worst.

 

The entire point is, that due to the fact GKT are this expensive, there is no reason to take them over Paladins, whichg cost a tiny bit more, but are a lot better. They have the same loadout options, but with more attacks, more wounds, the Paragon has better WS, better leadership, etc. It's not fluffwise they are better, but ruleswise the difference in points is too small to skip Paladins over Terminators.

 

 

His argument was that SMT are better (in all aspects) than GKT which clearly isn't true.

 

The argument of Paladins over GKT is something completely different and one I'd agree with you on.

[the jeske]

The Ld stat, just like all other stats are an abstracts and have little to nothing to do with the fluff.

[ckmidgett]

I can't stress enough how absolutely devastating a single ten man strike squad can be with the bolter-buffing stratagem.  Been having a ton of success running one of my strikes 10 strong with deepstrike and leaving the other's at 5 strong in transports.  

These guys on a flank can erase multiple squads on the turn they DS with 40 splittable S5 AP1 shots.  With how tight our CP pool this seems like he best way to go.

Edited August 17, 2017 by ckmidgett

[TheMostGood]

Space Marine terminators are the elites of their army. Those are the guys that have served in a TAC squad for a time and have been promoted to terminator armor. 

 

Grey Knights are different. Their TAC Sqauds get Power Armor AND Terminator armor because the job requires it. They are not yet considered to be elite warriors.

If you're going to compare Space Marine Terminators, you should be comparing them to Paladins. 

[Yossarion]

Space Marine terminators are the elites of their army. Those are the guys that have served in a TAC squad for a time and have been promoted to terminator armor. 

 

Grey Knights are different. Their TAC Sqauds get Power Armor AND Terminator armor because the job requires it. They are not yet considered to be elite warriors.

 

If you're going to compare Space Marine Terminators, you should be comparing them to Paladins. 

If we're getting into fluff then no, Space Marine Terminators are amazing they are the 1st Company and that is awesome. It comes no where close to what a Paladin has to do.

 

Paladins in the fluff have to travel around the galaxy without even power armor, armed with just a force sword and do all these hilariously ridiculous quests. Including taking on one of the 666 deadliest daemons the Grey Knights know about, with just a force sword.

 

The Grey Knight novels do point out that all our marines start in power armor and have to work to Terminator armor as well.

[Adeptus]

If we're getting into fluff then no, Space Marine Terminators are amazing they are the 1st Company and that is awesome. It comes no where close to what a Paladin has to do.

 

Paladins in the fluff have to travel around the galaxy without even power armor, armed with just a force sword and do all these hilariously ridiculous quests. Including taking on one of the 666 deadliest daemons the Grey Knights know about, with just a force sword.

And that's why Paladins are much better than regular Astartes Terminators.

 

The Grey Knight novels do point out that all our marines start in power armor and have to work to Terminator armor as well.

I don't remember that being a thing, although granted it's been a very long time since I read the Ben Counter novels. The current lore is that our new recruits basically get TDA on their first day, and they wear either power armour or TDA as the scenario calls for it. Which is why they have the same LD, because inside the armour it's the same class of warrior, which as we see in the Emperor's Gift novel could be anything from a rookie on his first mission to a veteran with centuries of experience. The LD stat is just an abstraction.

[Gentlemanloser]

And in the lore only our best shooters need to work thier way into a purgation squad.

 

They should be BS 2+.

 

And no. In the fluff our Terminators are;

 

There is no initial training as a scout. There is only an unyielding and brutal regime whose sucess at turning raw recruits into the finest warriors in the galaxy has been honed over the course of centuries. Only a fraction of the youths who enter the fortress monastery as neophytes survive the gruelling trials set before them. <snip> From thier earliest days as a battle-brother they possess an unyielding will, razor sharp battle skills and an all-encompassing knowledge of daemonic lore and psychic sorcery. In short, from the moment a Grey Knight initiates training is complete, he is to be counted amongst the mightiest of Space Marines <snip>

 

For only those whose purity, strength and willpower has been proven can withstand the horrors the Chapter must face.

 

 

From our new Codex.

 

Even the newest GKT, due to the recruitment process, is no 'scout'. already tested in battle. Already has a will (ld) stronger than any. Razor sharp battle skills. And among the mightiest of all Space Marines.

 

No, not equivalent to other Marine troops.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Adeptus]

And in the lore only our best shooters need to work thier way into a purgation squad.

 

They should be BS 2+.

 

And no. In the fluff our Terminators are;

 

There is no initial training as a scout. There is only an unyielding and brutal regime whose sucess at turning raw recruits into the finest warriors in the galaxy has been honed over the course of centuries. Only a fraction of the youths who enter the fortress monastery as neophytes survive the gruelling trials set before them. <snip> From thier earliest days as a battle-brother they possess an unyielding will, razor sharp battle skills and an all-encompassing knowledge of daemonic lore and psychic sorcery. In short, from the moment a Grey Knight initiates training is complete, he is to be counted amongst the mightiest of Space Marines <snip>

 

For only those whose purity, strength and willpower has been proven can withstand the horrors the Chapter must face.

 

 

From our new Codex.

 

Even the newest GKT, due to the recruitment process, is no 'scout'. already tested in battle. Already has a will (ld) stronger than any. Razor sharp battle skills. And among the mightiest of all Space Marines.

 

No, not equivalent to other Marine troops.

 

Don't drink so deeply of the koolaid, mate.

[Gentlemanloser]

Fluff is fluff.

 

/shrug

[Shagah]

 

No, not equivalent to other Marine troops.

 

Don't drink so deeply of the koolaid, mate.

 

I think the point he was making though is that you (well GW actually) were trying to justify a deliberate game balancing mechanism decision through fluff, when clearly that argument carries no water (as per GL's quotes).

 

On the flip side though one could argue that you can read almost any Codex of the last fifteen years and they are full of enough hyperbole to make Trump blush, so using fluff to justify game mechanic comparisons is often an exercise in futility. 

I think in general GW have established strong general mechanics to split the elite from the mundane (4 vs 3 statlines etc) but struggle to separate specific mechanics intra-elite and the like.

[Gentlemanloser]

How about a mechanical reason then?

 

Terminators are veterans, with Terminator honours.

 

This historically gave the Marine +1A.

 

Tac Marines have 1A. Terminators 2A.

 

Our Strike Squads have 1A.

 

Our terminators have the 'traditional' veteren 2A...

 

If they are the same 'troops' as the guys in Strike Squads, then surely, mechanically, like having the same ld they should also have the same 1A.

 

(Its also bonkers our 'elite' PA troop lost thier 2A as well...)

 

Edit. Its also easy to confirm that mechanically wearing TDA doesn't change the A stat.

 

If you look at marine characters that have both a PA and TDA version we can see that TDA gives;

 

-1M

+1W

2+ Save

 

The A stat doesn't change.

 

Which means our GKT have 'veteren' number of Attacks...

Edited August 17, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Adeptus]

Fluff is fluff.

 

/shrug

 

Yeah, but there's literally only six skill bands to cover every warrior in the 41st millennium from the lowliest grot to the most powerful bloodthirster. So if we take Marines at a 3+, then Grey Knights should be a 2+, GK Paladins should be a 0+, GK grandmasters should be -1+... you see where it falls apart? We have to accept that the rules of 40K lack te granularity required to accurately measure each warrior against each other warrior. While a GK might be a 'better' warrior than a tactical marine, they're not differently enough to warrant different weapon skills. They both fall into the 3+ category even though one is described as better than the other.

 

Similarly with LD, yes I agree that GKs would have a higher LD than normal marines, but I don't think that would be enough to push them from 7 to 8. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Easily solved by rerolls and plus 1's.