The correct price for GK Terminators?

[Chronos Darkhelmet]

It is one of the most balanced editions they have ever made. Balance is first achieved in codex. They have to make sure that how the unit works with other units in your codex makes sense and doesn't break the game. In general every unit should have a purpose, but no unit should feel like an auto-include. That unit is balanced around what other units can do and what your army can do. So, for example, GoI a Land Raider full of troops behind your enemy. All of that is considered.

 

They would then likely look at balance compared to other codexs I'm sure. For example, the smite rule is nerfed for GK for a reason. It was way too strong for normal matched play. If you don't think so then by all means, play a game with the normal smite rules.

Nobody is asking for normal Smite on *all* GK units, mate. Somebody of us is just asking for normal Smite on some selected HQs, and that's it. Always keep in mind that nerfed Smite:

 

1) is an actual power, so it sucks up a slot to be cast each turn at the expense of another power;

 

2) due to GK pt cost, at most how many? 6-7 units will cast it (and 4-5 of these will be forced to end their psy phase there)?

 

3) failures and dispels exist anyway, even with bonuses.

 

Aside from all that, look at all the things that GKT get for 8pts per model.

All types of grenades.

Which cost 0 for *each and every* imperial unit.

 

Cast a psychic power deny one

OK, that should be around 4 pts/model.

 

Extra damage potential against demons.

Which means bonus against *one* army out of 20+ in the game.

 

Arguably tougher units because of Sanctuary and HtP.

Vanillas have access to both Cataphractii (2+/4++) and Assault Termies (2+/3++) with no need to spend psy powers on them - and at a lower pt cost than TAGKs anyway.

 

More versatility - close combat weapons good against light and heavy units.

 

Objective Secured!

Which by December will be given to Conscript mobs for 5 pts/model, or Brimstone waves for 3 pts/model!

 

You're telling me that a Space Marine player wouldn't spend 8pts per model to get all of that? Now if the argument is "GKT are not as good as other GK units in the same role" then yea, sure, I can see that. That's kind of the problem for every codex now and in the past, isn't it? In a game of min/max there will ALWAYS be a "best unit" but I can see that argument.

 

But compare and contrast with other similar units in other codex? Not a chance. You can easily spot the difference between the two and see why they are different.

 

Finally, consider this. If you really feel like GKT should have lower costs to match Vanilla Terminators, then why bother with Vanilla Terminators? Just take GKT, right?

The last sentence honestly makes little sense to me: the argument should be almost exactly the opposite - why play a Terminator army with overpriced GK when you could afford better performance by playing Vanilla Termies? Edited August 20, 2017 by Chronos Darkhelmet

[Gentlemanloser]

Or you're playing nilla termies for chapter tactics and RG rerolls.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

GKT would always cost more than standard Terminators, due to their extra abilities, it part of game balancing and while GW have most certainly dropped the ball on many occasions, units are balanced against their own army and other armies.

If we look at points changes so far this edition, we see lots of internal and external balancing being attempted.

Purestrain Genestealers come to mind, they were expensive in general and against standard genestealers so they got reduced (too much), next faq they were increased a little again, so this edition is the one for balance being attempting universally.

So to return to the GKT and whether or not they are correctly priced.

 

As i actually believe standard terminators are generally well costed, with an extra wound and better saves they are twice as likely to survive small arms fire and are twice the cost, to me that seems balanced, yes multi damage is their weakness but they are less likely to loose any to battleshock tests.

 

Wargear generally has a standard cost across codexes now, all Stormbolters, power swords and so forth are the same, force weapons are generally 12-16 points so we do generally get these bundled into our base price as they'd make strike squads a lot more expensive if they were bought seperately, but with the reduction in the price of a powerfist to be the same it does make all force weapons appear overcosted a little.

So for the math section:

Base cost = 26

Force Wep = 12

Stormbolter = 2

Abilities* = 4

 

*this includes psychic potential and grenades, as the +1 to casting is the GK chapter tactic it stands to reason that it would be uncosted in the same manner as others.

 

After totaling up, it comes in at 44 points including stormbolter, now thats not much different but in the long run, in such a small elite army every point matters, losing 10-20 points is a big hit and it can/will affect your list building.

[Danarc]

 

 

The reason why you guys are scratching your heads over GKT vs Vanilla Terminators is because you're not supposed to compare and contrast units from different codexes. They are not designed that way. Units in a codex are designed around what that codex does specifically and how those units interact. 

 

Honestly, the biggest reason why they cost as much as they do is because of their psychic abilities. You can cast one and deny one ability. If it is an all GK army, you get +1 to that deny. Which means you will be stopping your opponent from casting on average. I think that is worth the extra 40pts. 

I can't agree. Firstly GW told us that this is the most balanced edition ever. The balance could be possible only comparing different units belonging to different codexes. They MUST be designed that way. 

Moreover, as said before, the problem exists also among the units inside the codex GK.

Last of all 40 points for psychic abiliti are insane. And the same value is not provided for librarian or other psychic units in the whole game. 

 

 

It is one of the most balanced editions they have ever made. Balance is first achieved in codex. They have to make sure that how the unit works with other units in your codex makes sense and doesn't break the game. In general every unit should have a purpose, but no unit should feel like an auto-include. That unit is balanced around what other units can do and what your army can do. So, for example, GoI a Land Raider full of troops behind your enemy. All of that is considered.

 

They would then likely look at balance compared to other codexs I'm sure. For example, the smite rule is nerfed for GK for a reason. It was way too strong for normal matched play. If you don't think so then by all means, play a game with the normal smite rules.

 

 

Aside from all that, look at all the things that GKT get for 8pts per model. 

All types of grenades. 

 

Cast a psychic power deny one 

 

Extra damage potential against demons. 

 

Arguably tougher units because of Sanctuary and HtP. 

 

More versatility - close combat weapons good against light and heavy units.

 

Objective Secured!

 

You're telling me that a Space Marine player wouldn't spend 8pts per model to get all of that? Now if the argument is "GKT are not as good as other GK units in the same role" then yea, sure, I can see that. That's kind of the problem for every codex now and in the past, isn't it? In a game of min/max there will ALWAYS be a "best unit" but I can see that argument.

 

But compare and contrast with other similar units in other codex? Not a chance. You can easily spot the difference between the two and see why they are different. 

 

Finally, consider this. If you really feel like GKT should have lower costs to match Vanilla Terminators, then why bother with Vanilla Terminators? Just take GKT, right? 

 

 

Can you tell me why TS IC have the normal version of smite? where is balance?

 

GKT would always cost more than standard Terminators, due to their extra abilities, it part of game balancing and while GW have most certainly dropped the ball on many occasions, units are balanced against their own army and other armies.

If we look at points changes so far this edition, we see lots of internal and external balancing being attempted.

Purestrain Genestealers come to mind, they were expensive in general and against standard genestealers so they got reduced (too much), next faq they were increased a little again, so this edition is the one for balance being attempting universally.

So to return to the GKT and whether or not they are correctly priced.

 

As i actually believe standard terminators are generally well costed, with an extra wound and better saves they are twice as likely to survive small arms fire and are twice the cost, to me that seems balanced, yes multi damage is their weakness but they are less likely to loose any to battleshock tests.

 

Wargear generally has a standard cost across codexes now, all Stormbolters, power swords and so forth are the same, force weapons are generally 12-16 points so we do generally get these bundled into our base price as they'd make strike squads a lot more expensive if they were bought seperately, but with the reduction in the price of a powerfist to be the same it does make all force weapons appear overcosted a little.

So for the math section:

Base cost = 26

Force Wep = 12

Stormbolter = 2

Abilities* = 4

 

*this includes psychic potential and grenades, as the +1 to casting is the GK chapter tactic it stands to reason that it would be uncosted in the same manner as others.

 

After totaling up, it comes in at 44 points including stormbolter, now thats not much different but in the long run, in such a small elite army every point matters, losing 10-20 points is a big hit and it can/will affect your list building.

In 7th GKT was cheaper than SMT. and 12 points for a force weapons is too much. it is true that it is the cost of a force sword for SM but it is impossible that they used 12 points because a PAGK is 19 and a tactical marine is 13. 6 points are good (but I still think that 18 points for a PAGK it is better). the other 6 are too much. 

[Brother Captain Sirus]

I was doing a summary of gear at its current cost, do i believe a force sword is worth 12 points even for a librarian? No, if a power fist costs 12 doing D3 damage at ×2 str a power sword should be 8-10pts as it has the potential to do 2-3 times the damage but costing 3 times the amount is too much.

 

On the subject of strikes they only have one attack so dropping the price of a force weapon is a good move.

 

In reality the standard cost of a GKT with SB should be 42 points at which point they'd be twice the cost of a strike for twice the survivability to small arms fire, but they'd also be cheap enough in comparison to paladins to not be invalidated by them. Obviously its a careful balancing act and will hopefully be looked at again sooner rather than later.

[Gentlemanloser]

Then force weapons should cost more for Characters and Paladin who have more attacks than Strikes and GKT.

 

But they don't.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Brother Captain Sirus]

In all fairness the reason nemesis force weapons are included in the price for gks is that charging strikes 12pts each would make them a ridiculous cost, so by removing the standard pricing they were able to make strikes an option players would take.

 

However regardless of how they worked out the costs and even if they said the they only cost 6 points for PAGKs it just makes the current GKT cost seem even worse.

 

On a final note its a shame the new faq didnt address this in anyway.

[Danarc]

I was doing a summary of gear at its current cost, do i believe a force sword is worth 12 points even for a librarian? No, if a power fist costs 12 doing D3 damage at ×2 str a power sword should be 8-10pts as it has the potential to do 2-3 times the damage but costing 3 times the amount is too much.

 

On the subject of strikes they only have one attack so dropping the price of a force weapon is a good move.

 

In reality the standard cost of a GKT with SB should be 42 points at which point they'd be twice the cost of a strike for twice the survivability to small arms fire, but they'd also be cheap enough in comparison to paladins to not be invalidated by them. Obviously its a careful balancing act and will hopefully be looked at again sooner rather than later.

if termyes cost twice of a pagk should cost 40. pay twice for a stormbolter is a nonsense. 

a correct price is 38, better 35 :D

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Yes that was an oversight, was quickly typing while being distracted, but overall i do think a lower cost is needed and i'm happy to change the total if given some good supporting evidence, as such 38 points standard then 40 with the stormbolter included is definately starting to look like the most ideal cost we could wish for, as 35 may be a push too far when considering GKT vs PAGK.

[TheMostGood]

I can't get formatting to work on this forum.  

 

Suffice to say, most of the replies here show that people do not grasp the concept of balance within and without their codex. I would spend time bothering to reply, but it's a weird quote system that isn't immediately intuitive and I don't feel like wasting time figuring it out to argue about something dumb. 

 

FWIW, here's the Facebook 40K rep responding to someone that was complaining about cost comparisons. 

 

Hello Don, Grey Knights units are not Custodes units, and while having a similar statline are part of completely seperate armies. Grey Knights in particular have a raft of potential factors, like Stratagems, Psychic Powers, Artefacts and supporting characters to take into account. Comparisons of this nature tend to be a bit apples to oranges - we'll leave it to you to make the most of your units with the vast tactical toolkit available to you in your new codex!

 

Edited August 20, 2017 by TheMostGood

[TheMostGood]

 

Can you tell me why TS IC have the normal version of smite? where is balance?

 

Because you do not understand the concept of balance and how it works within a codex. All of the TS IC have the normal smite. They have two non-HQ characters that have smite and it is the nerfed one. That's it. No other unit in their codex has psychic powers available to them. I don't know how TS players build lists, but if they want to spam smite they would have to take a bunch of IC. Also as one poster argued "is an actual power, so it sucks up a slot to be cast each turn at the expense of another power;"

 

So why play TS, amright?  Also curious to see what you think, explain to me why they should get a nerfed version of smite.

 

As I said before, please play a game with whatever modified version of smite you wish to use and see what happens. Just do it for fun with a friend. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by TheMostGood

[Danarc]

 

 

Can you tell me why TS IC have the normal version of smite? where is balance?

 

Because you do not understand the concept of balance and how it works within a codex. All of the TS IC have the normal smite. They have two non-HQ characters that have smite and it is the nerfed one. That's it. No other unit in their codex has psychic powers available to them. I don't know how TS players build lists, but if they want to spam smite they would have to take a bunch of IC. Also as one poster argued "is an actual power, so it sucks up a slot to be cast each turn at the expense of another power;"

 

So why play TS, amright?  Also curious to see what you think, explain to me why they should get a nerfed version of smite.

 

As I said before, please play a game with whatever modified version of smite you wish to use and see what happens. Just do it for fun with a friend. 

 

I'd like to have GK IC with normal smite. not for all the army. 

[Gentlemanloser]

TMG that quote is bunk.

 

Every army gets relics, traits and strats in thier codex.

 

We're not balanced against current index armies becuase we have codex benefits.

 

That's a rediculous arguement that fails the moment custodians (or any other army in question) get thier own codex.

 

With thier own free relics, traits and strats.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Normal smite isnt really needed, with vortex of doom and purge soul in our list of powers asking for smite to be D3 for IC is far to easily abused. For example:

A librarian casts vortex and smite, followed by a GMNDK casting purge soul, which is followed by a brotherhood champion casting smite, to be followed by a chaplain and a brother captain (yes i'd have to take a command detachment and little else) but you get the idea thats alot of mortal wound potential, so smite being limited is a good balance.