Chapter Master in low-point games

[Frater Cornelius]

There is a 1250 list I have come up with. Something along the lines of a P. Captain, P. Lieutenant, 2 units of 5 Intercessors, 5 Scouts, an Ironclad, a Repulsor with 5 Hellblasters and a Quad Las Pred. This is 6 CP, probably a bit more with the UM trait. I wonder, whether it is worth it to upgrade the Captain for full re-rolls, especially against armies where I need those solid hits in T1 or Overwatch? It drops my CP down to an average of 4 at the start of the game. I am somewhat split about it. Thoughts?

[Prot]

I like the move. It makes the Primaris captain far more valuable, and he's often receiving a Relic in my lists. (Ultra-Halo or Burning Blade depending on the list).

 

I keep asking if these points can be potentially refunded, but no one seems to know. The fact we can refund during the game makes it a bit more palpable.

[Frater Cornelius]

Around here we play that any point spent, regardless when (even the roll-offs at the start) can be re-rolled and refunded. That makes the CM upgrade potentially less expensive. In this list, the Captain only has a ranged weapon, due to point constraints (I wanted that Ironclad), but he will be sporting that Halo. Edited August 16, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[greatcrusade08]

has their been an OR thread on this issue, definitely something that needs working out.

I think the CM is an auto include in any list where a couple strong shooting units can be buffed with rerolls (which is most)

a regular captain is just 1s to hit, all rerolls are far more valuable

[Moonstalker]

I think the CM strat is almost always worth it, even if you can't refund the CPs (my group let me try, but I didn't get any 5+'s for that roll).  We were also playing 1250, and I was able to extend the CM reroll bubble to almost my entire army.  After you reroll 3 non-1 misses with it, the strat has paid for itself and everything beyond that is gravy - and you can do that in just your first turn of shooting, especially if you're moving your heavy hitters around at all.

 

Regarding the UM Warlord Trait reroll, traits are chosen immediately before deployment begins (page 186 main rulebook).  The trait allows the warlord to refund CP while he is alive.  The stratagem requires that it be activated "before battle begins."  On page 187 of the main rulebook is the sole core mission, "Only War."  Here, you are instructed to deploy your armies, and then after they are set up, determine Power Level.  The Power Level section here specifically uses the words "Before Battle Begins," as well as defining the battle itself as lasting five battle rounds - deployment is not included in battle length, it is specifically the battle rounds (which are defined earlier in the core rules as the usual movement/psychic/shooting/etc phases).  So, once your warlord is deployed, he might be considered alive/on the table, and between there and the first battle round would be the time "before battle begins" where you could activate the Chapter Master strat and get the refund rolls.

 

It could probably still do with an errata to clarify it, but I think a strong, logical case can be made for getting the refund rolls on your CM strat.

Edited August 17, 2017 by kitwulfen

[Brother Captain Ed]

I like the move. It makes the Primaris captain far more valuable, and he's often receiving a Relic in my lists. (Ultra-Halo or Burning Blade depending on the list).

 

When would you take the Burning Blade?  If I have captain/CM, the Sanctic Halo seems better in pretty much all ways...

[Prot]

 

I like the move. It makes the Primaris captain far more valuable, and he's often receiving a Relic in my lists. (Ultra-Halo or Burning Blade depending on the list).

 

 

When would you take the Burning Blade?  If I have captain/CM, the Sanctic Halo seems better in pretty much all ways...

I take the burning blade over the halo in every case where the captain will have to do the CC heavy lifting, and I have a librarian or some other way of denying Psychic goofery. I've not regretted the Blade yet, but again I use it when I need the hq to be a cheap beat stick.

[Moonstalker]

 

 

I like the move. It makes the Primaris captain far more valuable, and he's often receiving a Relic in my lists. (Ultra-Halo or Burning Blade depending on the list).

 

When would you take the Burning Blade?  If I have captain/CM, the Sanctic Halo seems better in pretty much all ways...

I take the burning blade over the halo in every case where the captain will have to do the CC heavy lifting, and I have a librarian or some other way of denying Psychic goofery. I've not regretted the Blade yet, but again I use it when I need the hq to be a cheap beat stick.

 

 

 

Isn't a relic blade generally better, though?  Like they're both +2 str, BB gets -5 AP and 1 damage, RB gets -3 AP and D3 damage.  So very close in stats, but what do you need a beatstick for that doesn't have a 5+ invul (or better) anyway?  Genuinely curious, I'm still pretty new to this edition, but like, if you're killing terminators or an enemy HQ, something with good armor save, an invul, and multi-wounds, either the RB or BB can force the unit to take its invul instead of armor, but the RB will deal multiple points of damage, so you could potentially kill an HQ with only getting two wounds through their invul save while you need one through for every hit with the BB.  So isn't the relic blade better in general?  Wouldn't the sanctic's 3+ invul, or the armor indomitus' 2+/4++/one turn 3++ be a better buy?

 

Or is this especially for the situation where you can afford a power sword/BB, but absolutely can't shake the points loose for a relic blade (your emphasis on cheap?)?

[Brother Captain Ed]

 

 

 

I like the move. It makes the Primaris captain far more valuable, and he's often receiving a Relic in my lists. (Ultra-Halo or Burning Blade depending on the list).

 

When would you take the Burning Blade?  If I have captain/CM, the Sanctic Halo seems better in pretty much all ways...

I take the burning blade over the halo in every case where the captain will have to do the CC heavy lifting, and I have a librarian or some other way of denying Psychic goofery. I've not regretted the Blade yet, but again I use it when I need the hq to be a cheap beat stick.

 

 

 

Isn't a relic blade generally better, though?  Like they're both +2 str, BB gets -5 AP and 1 damage, RB gets -3 AP and D3 damage.  So very close in stats, but what do you need a beatstick for that doesn't have a 5+ invul (or better) anyway?  Genuinely curious, I'm still pretty new to this edition, but like, if you're killing terminators or an enemy HQ, something with good armor save, an invul, and multi-wounds, either the RB or BB can force the unit to take its invul instead of armor, but the RB will deal multiple points of damage, so you could potentially kill an HQ with only getting two wounds through their invul save while you need one through for every hit with the BB.  So isn't the relic blade better in general?  Wouldn't the sanctic's 3+ invul, or the armor indomitus' 2+/4++/one turn 3++ be a better buy?

 

Or is this especially for the situation where you can afford a power sword/BB, but absolutely can't shake the points loose for a relic blade (your emphasis on cheap?)?

 

This fine gentleman posted my thoughts before I could.  :)

 

A captain with a Sanctic Halo, Relic Blade, and plasma pistol is a criminally cheap 102 points and, arguably, just as killy as the Burning Blade version and with a rock solid save and his psychic defense.  Seems like an easy 21 points to spend for me.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm, how great that Primaris Captains can not take Relic Blades. Truly well done, GW :D

[Captain Idaho]

Relic blades are always worth it on every model who can have one. In the case Prot mentioned though, Primaris Marines can't have such luxuries therefore it's a way of boosting the Primaris Captain's fighting power for free.

 

The exception to the Relic Blade is if you've giving your Captain the Teeth of Terra. An amazing weapon that to me is the single best weapon in the Codex.

 

Now, moving back to Chapter Master Strategum uses...

 

I'm toying with the idea. My only problem is Ultramarines have ways of spreading the boosts normally only found in Auras. We can use Wisdom of the Ancients and Scions of Guilliman to boost our fighting potential without character support. Why is this important? 40K is following a trend of character clumping to maximise the benefits of characters. It's a viable tactic. With Scions of Guilliman and Wisdom of the Ancients, however, we can have units AWAY from characters still acting as if they received the benefits.

 

Tactical Marines in particular benefit from Scions of Guilliman the most. A couple Tactical squads in Rhinos can move forward with a cheap Lieutenant and jump out on a an enemy. Both units can benefit from the Lieutenant and 1 can use Scions of Guilliman. You can do this without the Lieutenant if you want a 2nd heavy weapon.

 

Regardless of that little example, having an army less clumped together benefits us in objectives games and also allows us to divide opponents that are themselves clumping.

 

That's not to say I don't rate the Chapter Master special rule as I do, but Wisdom of the Ancients and Scions of Guilliman are both only a single CP.

 

Plus I really like the Hellfire Shells and Flakk Missile Strategums.

 

I worry I can't afford to use 3 CPs on rerolls like that.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Captain Idaho

[Frater Cornelius]

Those Strats are really good in larger armies to spread out. Full re-rolls are very powerful and in a small army clumping way be less of an issue. Those 3 CP means you do not need to spend the CP on other hit re-rolls.

[Moonstalker]

Relic blades are always worth it on every model who can have one. In the case Prot mentioned though, Primaris Marines can't have such luxuries therefore it's a way of boosting the Primaris Captain's fighting power for free.

 

My bad, I missed that we were talking specifically about Primaris Captains.

[Captain Idaho]

Those Strats are really good in larger armies to spread out. Full re-rolls are very powerful and in a small army clumping way be less of an issue. Those 3 CP means you do not need to spend the CP on other hit re-rolls.

I actually think it's the other way round. In larger games you can afford 3 CPs as you should have more. To splurge all your CPs (or half for most of us using a Battalion) on a single character surrenders the initiative to opponents because all your rerolls are coming from 1 source.

[Gothical]

I think the CM strat is almost always worth it, even if you can't refund the CPs (my group let me try, but I didn't get any 5+'s for that roll).  We were also playing 1250, and I was able to extend the CM reroll bubble to almost my entire army.  After you reroll 3 non-1 misses with it, the strat has paid for itself and everything beyond that is gravy - and you can do that in just your first turn of shooting, especially if you're moving your heavy hitters around at all.

 

Do bear in mind that anything carrying Heavy Weapons, be it a Marine or a Predator, won't actually get any additional re-rolls compared to the same models remaining stationary, as re-rolls happen before modifiers (so rolling a 3 to hit on a moving Predator cannot be re-rolled as it is a "hit", then -1 Modifier kicks in and the shot misses). That does cut down on the value of the CM upgrade, though it is still an improvement over the Captain's aura as it will apply to 2s as well as 1s.

 

I'm honestly not sure if it is worth the upgrade because of the above. Certainly for my melee units I would rather take a Chaplain to get the same effect when it matters, but I suppose you could use the Chapter Master instead to save points in not having to take a secondary character. At the moment I tend to prefer preserving CPs to Points, and in addition taking multiple HQs opens up the larger FOCs. I guess it comes down to what your individual army needs more of from FOC, CP and Points (even in a small game it isn't necessarily points).

[Moonstalker]

 

I think the CM strat is almost always worth it, even if you can't refund the CPs (my group let me try, but I didn't get any 5+'s for that roll).  We were also playing 1250, and I was able to extend the CM reroll bubble to almost my entire army.  After you reroll 3 non-1 misses with it, the strat has paid for itself and everything beyond that is gravy - and you can do that in just your first turn of shooting, especially if you're moving your heavy hitters around at all.

 

Do bear in mind that anything carrying Heavy Weapons, be it a Marine or a Predator, won't actually get any additional re-rolls compared to the same models remaining stationary, as re-rolls happen before modifiers (so rolling a 3 to hit on a moving Predator cannot be re-rolled as it is a "hit", then -1 Modifier kicks in and the shot misses). That does cut down on the value of the CM upgrade, though it is still an improvement over the Captain's aura as it will apply to 2s as well as 1s.

 

 

Yeah, I dunno what I was thinking when I said that last bit.  I know that rule, we play by that rule, just... brain no good.

 

Speaking of thinking with my no-good brain...

 

As I continue to try and really get to grips with the Codex, it occurred to me that the CM Stratagem might be an auto-include for other Chapters, but maybe not for UM.  If you look at the Salamanders Chapter Tactic, they're strongly encouraged to go full MSU, lots of 5 man squads with a special or heavy that they can spend their free hit/wound rerolls on.  The CM Strat isn't a terribly high priority for them.  But when you look at everything we get, we're not encouraged to go with MSU, and maybe also not encouraged to spend our CP on the CM Strat.  Taken altogether, we get +1 Ld, can shoot when falling back from CC at -1, 5+ refund on CP (if you take our warlord trait), and Scions of Guilliman granting to-hit rerolls of 1's to any squad (full rerolls for tacs and intercessors).  I think those rules encourage aggressive use of full 10-man tacticals; you really don't have to worry about failing morale tests with the ATSKNF reroll + bonus Ld, if you get swept up into combat you can take a step back and shoot, you're not tied into a rigid formation trying to keep everything within the bubble of your Captain/Lt since you can give Chapter Master-level rerolls on command to any tac squad.

 

That's not to say it's necessarily the best way to play UM.  Spamming 5 mans with combi+special and razorbacks, and taking multiple detachments for more CP, bringing Guilliman, etc, might still be stronger, and you may or may not still want the Chapter Master strat for that.  But the way they designed all the UM puzzle pieces to fit together makes me a bit more unsure about calling Chapter Master an auto-take.

[Frater Cornelius]

If one is to skip a CM, couldn't you just go ahead and skip the Captain as well? UM have two Stratagems for re-rolls of 1s. You might as well just take the Lieutenant and another HQ like Librarian or Chaplain for more utility and get re-rolls somewhere else.

[Stoic Raptor]

Perhaps, but Stratagems are unit-specific and still cost CPs (even if there's a 1/3 chance of a refund).

[Frater Cornelius]

But if you have 6, how many could you possibly need at 1000 or 1250?

[Captain Idaho]

I dunno. Being able to shoot a unit that emerges next to you or attack again in close combat.

[Stoic Raptor]

But if you have 6, how many could you possibly need at 1000 or 1250?

 

I'd kind of like to have more than one unit getting rerolls in each shooting phase, and since you can't play the same stratagem more than once per phase, an aura makes more sense.

But as the esteemed Captain says, yes, I'd like to get the rerolls when I'm reacting too (overwatch, deep strikes, etc)

[Prot]

I'm finding Wisdom if the Ancients is actually quite good without a captain.

 

I use it in my Redemptor which makes for a better aura size. This frees my Calgar, or captain or... lack of captain to be less important on the back lines with the Redemptor aura.

[CCE1981]

Unless it is a very large point game I just don't see taking a Chapter Master via CPs useful. CPs are just too hard to come by, I find it easier to fill in the small hole with points. On top of that in larger games the Chapter Master becomes an even more limited use because of the diminishing returns of the size of his aura to board size.

[Prot]

But on average you refund one of those CPs. If you put on a cheap Captain, this may allow you to create the room for an additional detachment getting another CP ( obviously a bigger game).

 

I have done this so that's why I mention it as a possible solution. I like Tech Marines for my cheap hq slots in my multi Redemptor/ Repulsor armies.

[Captain Idaho]

Have you got a list example? That's an intriguing prospect for Ultramarines.