HH Book 47: Old Earth

[bluntblade]

Meesa underwhelmedsa.

[caladancid]

 

So, what next for the Iron Tenth in the Heresy?

 

Nothing - this is essentially it for them. They go off back to Medusa and do not want to take an active part in the war, and Tybalt Marr says that the Iron Hands will be dealt with after Terra now that they are no longer a threat to the Warmaster's advance.

 

Question.

Did all Meduson's Salamanders and RG allies go off to their Primarchs?

 

Not 100% clear. There are very, very few left by this point, and Meduson's plan was to allow the Sallies and RG to go home after the IH won their major victory over the SoH. This victory never eventuates, but Vulkan does not allow anybody to join him on his journey, and there's no mention of the RG wanting to go to Deliverance.

 

Anyway, I read the whole thing primarily to see what involvement the SoH had; for any interested parties, their role was 'some enemies that get a lot of lip service as being good and then get smashed continually anyway'. Kyme is simply not an author capable of doing them - or indeed any villains from what I've seen - justice. It seems to me that he struggles to come up with ways in which he can make his protagonists look good without just having them waltz through whatever is in their path, and continues to do so in the belief that some guys saying 'wow these baddies are so disciplined and good and skillful and stuff, beating them is gonna be so hard guys' makes the protagonists' impending victory believable. I enjoy reading about both loyalists and traitors and the books where it's a believable back and forth are always highlights for me. Just as it was in his other books, this is not the case here.

 

The only saving grace this book has is its relative importance. Lots of plot threads are resolved, and so unlike Vulkan Lives and Deathfire, the reader is rewarded for their endurance (perhaps that was intentional) with some occasionally satisfying resolutions. It draws upon a variety of novellas and novels, and even links to Master of Mankind in places. I thought Meduson's fate was suitably grimdark and appropriate for the setting, but would have liked to see more of Tybalt Marr's involvement than 'guy that Meduson gets unnecessarily obsessed over'. Again, Kyme struggles to make antagonists anything more than an obstacle that will inevitably be overcome (unless the good guys back stab each other and the main character is sleep deprived, of course). This applies to those in the way of Vulkan, those in the way of Meduson, and those in the way of Eldrad and his Bearer of the Word friend.

 

It is the Iron Hands who are the most entertaining here, but that doesn't say a great deal because the book was an ordeal for me. I am left wondering what an 'Iron Tenth' novel would have looked like - in retrospect, I would have been really interested to read it. Vulkan is Kyme's Vulkan once again, through and through. He's more sure of his purpose now, but it's just more of the same really when it comes down to it. It feels weird in a book with Vulkan on the cover barely talking about him, but once you read it, you'll probably get what I mean.

 

He deserves credit for tying up so many threads in one book, and for having a clear vision of where he wanted to take Vulkan. I just don't think the execution was very good at all. Others may hold differing opinions. It's his best novel out of the big 3 in the Heresy (Vulkan Lives/Deathfire/Old Earth), but again, being the best out of a bad lot doesn't equal good.

 

I did take a perverse interest in...

 

the Cabal being murdered repeatedly by Eldrad and his Word Bearers buddy, as I goddamn hate that plot line, and the fact that an assassination attempt on Lorgar has been set up... although it seems to be decided that he's alive in 40k now? So there's probably nothing to worry about there. I don't see GW killing off Primarchs they can bring back in 30k reborn 40k now.

 

Read if: you want to see some plot threads resolved relating to Meduson/Vulkan the Cabal, or were already a fan of Kyme

Avoid if: Vulkan Lives and Deathfire made you lose your will to live

 

 

 

Why are we using so many spoiler tags here all of a sudden? I thought we were going with the, its a book discussion forum expect book discussion, thing.

 

I definitely understand the people who are still too burned by the first two Salamanders' HH novels to take a risk, but really this is a worthwhile novel.  I think if anyone other than Nick Kyme had written it, the reception to the perceived flaws would be less harsh.  Yes, the bad guys are a little bit flat, but the bad sides of the good guys are pretty well developed.  As has been said, the Iron Hands sure don't come off looking too good at the end.

 

Also, and I may be way off here, but isn't the appeal of the Salamanders just that they a pretty simply good? If everyone else in the setting was also empathetic and self-sacrificing I can see it being old....but the XVIIIth are about it on the actual good guy front.  It is a nice change of pace.  Of course, maybe as a result of that goodness they get smacked around an awful lot.

[Marshal Loss]

I'm using a handful of spoiler tags so people that wish to remain spoiler free are able to do so. I don't see why that would bother you.

 

I read novels by authors I'm not a huge fan of all the time, and occasionally go away impressed and happy I took the chance. Gav Thorpe is another I don't rate, but when I read something of his I think is good, I say so. Sometimes I read books by an author I like and leave underwhelmed. It's just something that happens when you read a lot of books in a setting like this. But this book is Kyme through and through. It suffers from the same flaws as his first two Salamanders books. If people didn't like the first two books, this is not going to change their opinion of him, and I don't see it being better in any regard really other than the fact that we have other plot lines operating alongside the Salamanders, meaning there are more distractions and conclusions to reach.

 

If any other author had written this, I'd have said it was just as bad. I'm confident that the response from most to this book will be indifference to 'meh'. I would definitely agree that it is a worthwhile read - but not because the book is good. Because this book ties up lots of plot threads in a setting we've all invested lots of time in.

 

Yes, the Salamanders are good guys. But it's not a change of pace when we've been subjected to so much material about them in the past, and this doesn't add anything to that. I'm glad some find it enjoyable, but I don't share your opinion.

[caladancid]

I'm using a handful of spoiler tags so people that wish to remain spoiler free are able to do so. I don't see why that would bother you.

 

I read novels by authors I'm not a huge fan of all the time, and occasionally go away impressed and happy I took the chance. Gav Thorpe is another I don't rate, but when I read something of his I think is good, I say so. Sometimes I read books by an author I like and leave underwhelmed. It's just something that happens when you read a lot of books in a setting like this. But this book is Kyme through and through. It suffers from the same flaws as his first two Salamanders books. If people didn't like the first two books, this is not going to change their opinion of him, and I don't see it being better in any regard really other than the fact that we have other plot lines operating alongside the Salamanders, meaning there are more distractions and conclusions to reach.

 

If any other author had written this, I'd have said it was just as bad. I'm confident that the response from most to this book will be indifference to 'meh'. I would definitely agree that it is a worthwhile read - but not because the book is good. Because this book ties up lots of plot threads in a setting we've all invested lots of time in.

 

Yes, the Salamanders are good guys. But it's not a change of pace when we've been subjected to so much material about them in the past, and this doesn't add anything to that. I'm glad some find it enjoyable, but I don't share your opinion.

 

The spoiler tags don't really bother me- I read the book so I'm indifferent to their use.  I was just wondering if I had missed a change in forum policy.

 

Like I said, I understand your perspective.  I disagree that we've had a lot of Salamanders material (though certainly more than DG fans).  It is pretty limited to the three main novels and novellas.  Promethean Sun was actually decent, just like this one.  

 

My main point of disagreement is that this is certainly not like the other Salamanders novels, and simply adding more plot threads wouldn't solve a writing problem, you would just be left with more bad plots and the original issue of bad writing.  Whether the multiple plotlines forced Kyme to trim his work is not debatable, he says so himself at the end, and that worked to his advantage by improving the writing quality.

[Marshal Loss]

Like I said, I understand your perspective.  I disagree that we've had a lot of Salamanders material (though certainly more than DG fans).  It is pretty limited to the three main novels and novellas.  Promethean Sun was actually decent, just like this one.  

 

My main point of disagreement is that this is certainly not like the other Salamanders novels, and simply adding more plot threads wouldn't solve a writing problem, you would just be left with more bad plots and the original issue of bad writing.  Whether the multiple plotlines forced Kyme to trim his work is not debatable, he says so himself at the end, and that worked to his advantage by improving the writing quality.

 

 

Three main novels and novellas is a lot of material, not even counting short stories and their involvement in other novels, especially considering their perceived unimportance in the greater scheme of things. I never thought I'd hear somebody say that's not a lot of reading material. In fact, very few Legions even come close in the amount of dedicated material they get...

 

I didn't say that the extra plot threads solved his writing problem. They don't, which is why I said it is like the other Salamanders novels. Vulkan is not the same Vulkan in this book as he was in Deathfire, or in Vulkan Lives, but the Salamanders themselves are written the same dull way and suffer from all of the same flaws. Fire this, fire that. The writing quality is the same I have come to expect from Nick Kyme when working on his Salamanders. I do think the book benefits from not focusing solely on the Salamanders, which would likely have led to another painful Deathfire style journey, but that doesn't mean the writing itself is better. It just means that the variety of subject matter and protagonists make it a more interesting read than his usual fire fire Salamanders stuff. Like I said, I'm more interested in the Iron Hands having read this novel, for example, and thought other than the lack of believable challenges, the grimdark demise of Meduson was good. 

 

It tied in very well with other material, and it deserves credit for that. But I don't think he was able to execute effectively.

 

Once again, I'm glad you enjoyed it, but I do not share your opinion. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[caladancid]

 

Like I said, I understand your perspective.  I disagree that we've had a lot of Salamanders material (though certainly more than DG fans).  It is pretty limited to the three main novels and novellas.  Promethean Sun was actually decent, just like this one.  

 

My main point of disagreement is that this is certainly not like the other Salamanders novels, and simply adding more plot threads wouldn't solve a writing problem, you would just be left with more bad plots and the original issue of bad writing.  Whether the multiple plotlines forced Kyme to trim his work is not debatable, he says so himself at the end, and that worked to his advantage by improving the writing quality.

 

 

Three main novels and novellas is a lot of material, not even counting short stories and their involvement in other novels, especially considering their perceived unimportance in the greater scheme of things. I never thought I'd hear somebody say that's not a lot of reading material. In fact, very few Legions even come close in the amount of dedicated material they get...

 

I didn't say that the extra plot threads solved his writing problem. They don't, which is why I said it is like the other Salamanders novels. Vulkan is not the same Vulkan in this book as he was in Deathfire, or in Vulkan Lives, but the Salamanders themselves are written the same dull way and suffer from all of the same flaws. Fire this, fire that. The writing quality is the same I have come to expect from Nick Kyme when working on his Salamanders. I do think the book benefits from not focusing solely on the Salamanders, which would likely have led to another painful Deathfire style journey, but that doesn't mean the writing itself is better. It just means that the variety of subject matter and protagonists make it a more interesting read than his usual fire fire Salamanders stuff. Like I said, I'm more interested in the Iron Hands having read this novel, for example, and thought other than the lack of believable challenges, the grimdark demise of Meduson was good. 

 

It tied in very well with other material, and it deserves credit for that. But I don't think he was able to execute effectively.

 

Once again, I'm glad you enjoyed it, but I do not share your opinion. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

 

When I said not a lot about them, it was a comment on your statement that their goodness was "not a change of pace when we've been subjected to so much material about them in the past."

 

In the grand scheme of the HH novel series, I don't think that the material about Salamanders and their purity overwhelms the overall tone of grimdark (especially when the Salamanders' books themselves are full of it).  

 

Good discussion, if anything to me the variety of opinions is a sign of a series that has done its job!

[Marshal Loss]

I think there may have been a small misunderstanding - what I was saying is that while we go into a novel about Salamanders expecting them to be the good guys, after having so many novels, novellas, and short stories about them, it doesn't constitute a change of pace from the series because of the sheer volume of material dedicated to them, and leads to their works feeling repetitive, working the same themes to death. While other Legions struggle for a cameo, they have had attention lavished upon them, and unfortunately not by an author with the quality of someone like Wraight.*

 

*opinion of course

 

We've seen it enough by now that it's simply something we've come to expect and something we've seen over and over again. And because it's Nick Kyme, it suffers from the pitfalls that he brings to the table when writing about them; fire this fire that sacrifice this. It gets old. The Salamanders are just as capable of being grimdark as anybody else even while being good guys; Vulkan's purpose essentially being the dude that

makes a mega nuke at the end of this novel

proves as much, so it's not an issue with them being good or anything like that.

 

And yes it certainly would be boring if everybody agreed on everything.

[mc warhammer]

i’m assuming that despite the grumbles about kyme here and elsewhere, that his novels must sell a decent amount

[Marshal Rohr]

He’s one of BL’s best sellers I believe.

[Praetor of Calth]

He’s one of BL’s best sellers I believe.

 

If I wrote a Horus Heresy book I'm sure I'd be one of BL's bestsellers too.

 

Now it wouldn't be very good, and people would say mean things about me on the internet anomymously, but it'd still sell purely because of the book series it belonged too.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don’t know if that’s guaranteed, but maybe. I’ve stopped buying Heresy novels not by John French, Abnett, or ADB. Maybe others have started skipping out as well. I think MoM was my last Heresy purchase.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

He’s one of BL’s best sellers I believe.

If I wrote a Horus Heresy book I'm sure I'd be one of BL's bestsellers too.

 

Now it wouldn't be very good, and people would say mean things about me on the internet anomymously, but it'd still sell purely because of the book series it belonged too.

this is a common argument i see on every message board where people don’t like the creative but feel the property is such a hook that it will be successful no matter who is working on it

 

i think that’s unfair to not only the creative team but also the audience’s sense of credibility

 

it also removes credibility from each and every BL author. if kyme only sells because readers are blind idiots who will mortgage their houses for anything with the word “horus” stamped on it, then the same must be said for adb, french, wraight etc

 

real questions: do ALL Horus Heresy books sell as well as each other? does kyme’s name hold any sway outside of 30k with the readership?

[bluntblade]

Presumably with Salamanders players, it does.

 

I would say his books likely have an advantage ofer some others because they're one of the most recognisable Legions, and come across pretty much the same as their 40K incarnation. As opposed to the Legion who no one cared about even in-universe, the Legion whose hat was no one knowing about them even in-universe, etc.

[b1soul]

It seems like the conclusion of this thread is Kyme gonna Kyme.

 

If you liked his previous Salamander work, give this a shot. If not, stay far away. No surprises here.

 

@Marshal Rohr

"I've stopped buying Heresy novels not by John French, Abnett, or ADB."

 

Wraight is excellent, though if you don't like WS, prob won't appeal to you.

 

Haley's Pharos was solid and I think his upcoming HH entries will impress more

[Phoebus]

It's neither here nor there, and I don't begrudge people their tastes (in author or faction), but I think it would be tragic if anyone skipped over Path of Heaven because they didn't like the White Scars.

[bluntblade]

But I'd bet that many people did.

[DarkChaplain]

I'm honestly curious how many of the folks arguing about the merits of the novel, and Kyme's relative skill and success, have read Old Earth at this point.

[Marshal Rohr]

Hilariously, I love Wraight’s Death Guard and White Scars. I skipped the book because of the Emperor’s Children.

[Taliesin]

 

 

 

 

 

Why are we using so many spoiler tags here all of a sudden? I thought we were going with the, its a book discussion forum expect book discussion, thing.

 

 

 

 

Yes, it is forum policy to use spoiler tags for new releases.

One of the reasons is that oftentimes people are curious about opinions on a brand new release, but haven't had the chance to read it yet themselves .

[b1soul]

Hilariously, I love Wraight’s Death Guard and White Scars. I skipped the book because of the Emperor’s Children.

I originally detested the EC...but Wraight made them very interesting in PoH, especially one character who is very torn over the creeping Chaos corruption.

[Fire Golem]

The Emperors Children in PoH are excellent. I didn't like them until I read that, but I'm a fan now (Betrayal helped too).

[JH79]

I'm looking forward to this, i like Vulkan and I enjoyed the Shattered Legion stories. True i would of preferred for Abnett to finish the Meduson arc but, meh, what are you gonna do. Kyme did great picking up Thiel from Abnett so hopefully he does Meduson justice too! It's going to be interesting to see where this ends up! The only downside from my perspective is BL ditching Saul Rychlin as the narrator! Apparently Jonathan Keeble get's the lion's share of all Horus Heresy releases these days without any attention paid to voice actor continuity, argh!!! 

 

I'm not sure what it is about Kyme, but i have a constant desire to see him do well and as such i support his releases. His short story work is usually of much higher quality than his full length novels with much tighter pacing and action that doesn't get caught up in overtly descriptive language. Seeing ADB comment about Old Earth on his FB (And yes, I have; I think Nick was braver than a lot of us. He took his HH work in really mythical directions that I'm a bit envious of.) i have to wonder if Kyme is now fully done with the Heresy, at least for the foreseeable? I have been hankering for another entry in Thiel's journey and maybe some more Fabious / Emperor's Children shorts wouldn't go amiss either!

[veterannoob]

Just finished it. Easily my fav Kyme book. I have to give him credit on this one, nice finale to the previous two Vulkan books. Yes, bolter porn, but it is, ya know, a war game.  That's...kinda in there. It could help that the content is exciting and anticipated (IMO) so maybe that helped tie it all together. But I listened to it and though Saul Reichland didn't narrate this one, Keeble does an admirable job. I was expecting more Vulkan fighting at the Gate but I guess it is sadly a little soon.

[b1soul]

Yes, bolter porn, but it is, ya know, a war game.

Novels based on a wargame don't have to be bolter porn.

 

I don't think Kyme's problem is a reliance upon bolter porn...he has some interesting ideas, like Thorpe, but he's just horrible at execution

[Phoebus]

Yes, this genre has a lot to do with war. The issue has never been with how much war is shown, though, or how much combat action there is versus nuanced discussion. The problem, in my humble opinion, is that several authors who write for Black Library inevitably reduce combat action to a detached sort of montage that hinges on stock descriptions of bolters firing, chainswords roaring, and so on. These are beings that are almost at the apex of human technology and are superhuman themselves; if they are going to be the focus of the story, their prowess shouldn't be written as an afterthought.

Can you have too much of even a good thing? Know No Fear was broadly praised and considered an enjoyable book, and that's about as close you'll get to a non-stop battle. More to the point, war - or, at least, combat - isn't boring. The waiting part of war certainly is, but nothing about taking human life is boring. Psychopaths or immortal champions of Chaos might think so, but that's a whole different topic.