Opinions on using "40k" armour?

[Custodian Athiair]

To cut a long story short, I've been looking at starting a new army with 8th ed coming out. And despite initial flirtation with CSM (Iron Warriors) I've come full circle back to wanting to get HH era Alpha Legion - with then the potential to field them in 40K probably under one of the two Space Marines codexs if required. 

 

The problem with this beautiful endeavour is that I am a poor recently graduated student with next to no disposable income. We know this hobby is expensive but that's okay. The problem is when it comes to Forge World and 30K era armour it is insanely expensive. So obviously I'm looking at ways to try and keep the cost of starting a HH army down.

 

The obvious way to do this is to stock up on Tactical Marine box sets and throw in bits of 30K resin bits on a couple of men in each squad. But I am unsure if this is an accepted practice because obviously 40K armour and 30K armour do have some noticeable differences.

 

Another alternative I've been postulating is using the Primaris kits, with their heavier greaves looking a bit more HH like. And then I can run them as "true-scale" Legionnaries, and it would have the added benefit of making Alpharius (when the model is eventually released) much more similar in height to his "sons", like in the fluff.

 

Additionally then I can run with the fun idea of an Alpha Legion Primaris chapter in 40K as I've been toying around with for a while.

 

Anyway I'm gonna stop rambling

 

TLDR: Whats the consensus on using 40K marines for a 30K army?

[Slips]

Have you looked into getting the plastic GW HH Box Sets? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Betrayal-at-Calth-and-Burning-of-Prospero-Bundle

 

Both get you a boatload of marines in Mk IV and Mk III armour as well as some Cataphractii and Tartaros. You can also find the contents partitioned out for cheaper online.

[M@verik115]

Just get the calth and prospero boxes and you have more than enough infantry and characters for your army. 

[Dantay VI]

I would also say Alpha legion had access to mark 6 armour which is common in 40K

 

Could use 40K scouts for recon marines and converting mk 7 legs to mk4 isnt too hard.

 

It is going to depend how Alpha FW youwant to go.

 

20 quid will get you loads (10 A4 sheets for me) of decal paper microsol, set and decal film plus download Alpha transfer sheets for BnC

 

You can also trade bits that you have to get what you need on sites like facebay etc.

 

For Primaris I have been told that torsos and arms do not match size wise but pads heads and hands fit fine.

[Custodian Athiair]

The other down side to the Primaris ideas is the lack of weapon options. Stuck with bolter or plasma which is a little disappointing.

 

True about the plastic HH models which are getting released, but they are more pricey by ~£5 than the standard "Tactical Marine" boxes for example. 

 

Although Reivers as infiltration troops do look promising. 

 

In response to you Dantay transfer sheets is something I've never actually messed around with, but that's a decent idea thank you 

[Dantay VI]

Thats why, although a heavy initial iinvestment the BoP & B@C box sets are such good value.

 

30 marines 5 terminators 2 characters and a dread for £95 (cheaper from some online stores) is a massive saving over buyong box sets individually

[Halandaar]

Betrayal at Calth is a great "starter set" for a Heresy army with a Cataphractii Praetor, 5-man Cataphractii Terminator Squad, Chaplain Consul, 3x 10-man MKIV Tactical Squads and a Contemptor Dreadnought (all of which are plastic) for less than half the price it would cost you to buy them separately. You can then trim another ~25% off that price by grabbing it from a third-party discount retailer.

 

If your issue is that you can't afford to drop that amount of cash in one go, you can usually still pick up the individual kits on eBay, from people who buy the Calth box and split it down, for much lower than the boxed GW version; for example there is a seller on eBay UK selling "more than 10" MKIV Tactical kits at £17.99 each, as opposed to the £30 rrp.

[Kizzdougs]

If you're worried about the cost, then Primaris Marines probably aren't the way to go (not to mention that it'd take a lot of work to make them appropriate for the Heresy).

 

Your best bet is to look on eBay for Calth and Prospero marines. They're usually considerably cheaper on eBay than they are at a GW store :tu:

[Elzender]

You could also split the BaC or BoP boxes with some friends or other hobbyists in your area, shouldn't be too hard to find somebody interested in marines (custodes and Sisters might be a bit more difficult, but they are nice models and you could always keep them).

 

Actually, I think that nowadays is cheaper to get heresy armour (at least mkIII and IV) than 40k even through GW or FLGS, unless you just want a single unit.

 

Another topic is regarding variation, options and posing. Having only one plastic kit for these armours limits their modelling options. Fortunately, mkIII legs come in two parts, adding some room for adapting the stance (might require some sculpting or gap filling). And there is always the option for getting a couple kits from FW, as it won't be as expensive as getting 20-30 marines + equipment from them.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Elzender

[N1SB]

Hi Brother, I got into 30k about 2 years ago, largely thanks to both this very board and my local meta.  Your meta may vary!  But see the whole landscape 1st.

 

Heed the insight of old friends who want to help you succeed: 30k isn't just a different game from 40k, it's a different culture IMHO.

 

 

TLDR: Whats the consensus on using 40K marines for a 30K army?

 

I listed the scenarios, which are really based on which Legion you choose, from IMHO most acceptable to less so.

 

If you want to use 40k marines wearing Mk VII armour (i.e. the standard 40k mark from 2nd to 7th ed) with Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, White Scars, no problem!  Totally fits!  Mk VII was the latest technology standard of the Horus Heresy, mass production was happening on Mars and was gradually being distributed from there.  Those 3 Chapters were involved in the Battle of Terra, and were gearing up for the inevitable siege, thus they would've readily armoured themselves up with it.

 

If you want to use Mk VII armour for Iron Hands, Salamanders, Ravenguard (though Ravenguard definitely preferred Mk VI Corvus armour)...still okay IMHO.  Those 3 Legions all had pretty close ties to the Mechanicum and your Legionnaires wearing this latest technology would've been like closed beta test participants because they were friends with a Magos, got an early shipment of the new stuff.  They were decimated on Istvaan, needed to regroup/rearm, probably looked to their Mechanicum allies when they felt they couldn't trust their fellow marines for good reason.

 

If you want to use Mk VII for Alpha Legion...also probably still okay IMHO.  That would represent they performed some daring raid to steal/intercept an early shipment of this armour to learn of any possible weaknesses in this new technology.  They would do this by using themselves as guinea pigs in combat, which is totally in line with Alpharius's style, because the only thing he'd ask of his Legionnaires is their all.  Their supply of Mk VII is definitely limited, but it happens your army would be the test subjects.

 

With any other Legion, a committed 30k player might look at your army oddly, in the same way in 40k if you used odd proxies.  I can even see why you thought about Primarus, as their helmets reminded me a lot of the Mk IV Maximus pattern, and they are basically true-scale, but I urge you not to do it.  Here's why.

 

+++++

 

Here's what I mean when I said 30k isn't just a different game than 40k, but a different culture.  30k leans more towards something like a historical re-enactment game, like how some tabletop gamers play Napoleonic battles or the Second World War, where they can be quite sticklers as to uniforms, banners, weaponry, etc.

 

It's the experience of 30k.  This is reflected even in how the FW HH books are written.  Initially I thought they were just fancy leather-bound codices, but as I read them out of curiosity to find out what the hype was about, holy crap.  30k game books are written like history documentaries, whereas 40k codices are more like general campaign setting books mostly.  It's a subtle difference, on the outside they look the same, but once you really get into it you feel the difference in texture.

 

Don't be turned off; it's not elitism on the part of 30k players, it's the experience that FW designed.  I'm much more on the casual end, but that's why I chose Mechanicum and Iron Hands (i.e. the Shattered Xth).  I, like you, converted stuff to save costs (well, tbh as a Mechanicum player I felt I needed to convert some stuff for street cred), but also to fit how the Iron Hands in particular were a fragmented Legion that had to juryrig stuff to survive.

 

Thus, I listed the Legions mostly likely to use the same technology standard as their 40k counterparts because I think that will really help you out.

 

The Betrayal at Calth set is really the absolute best "Start Collecting! Horus Heresy" value.  I wish that was out when I started in 30k, for real.

 

An alternate idea: get 30k models and run them as Chaos Space Marines in 40k, real Veterans of the Long War.  Edit - I mention this because we're discussing how to fit 40k models into 30k.  It's actually easier to get 30k models to fit 40k, thanks to Chaos Space Marines and the FW Imperial Armour indices.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Not 1 Step Backwards

[Xenith]

 

True about the plastic HH models which are getting released, but they are more pricey by ~£5 than the standard "Tactical Marine" boxes for example.

 

Err what? Plastic MkIV came out in 2015.

 

I don't know how you can not like the cost of the separate Mk4 plastics (£30 for 10) but think primaris are acceptable (£35 for 10).

 

The cheapest start to 30k is calth. Then get prospero. Sell the characters you don't need and buy some fw heavy weapons packs. Between those you'll have enough plasma, flamer, melta and heavy bolters to make many support squads.

[carlisimo]

You'll get a wide variety of answers because there's no consensus on the use of Mk VII armor in 30k (and Mk VIII is right out).  I don't think it'd be popular, and I'm not a fan myself.  Nor would Mk X armor (Primaris), though it can be modified by removing the aquilas and reshaping the knees into something more like Mk VI.  You'd also need a good story to explain why your dudes are so much bigger than your opponents'.  That's always been a problem with true-scale.  Easy enough for Alpha Legion, though, given that they stole that genetech from the Raven Guard.

 

But we've reached a stage where there's a bigger problem: you kind of have to choose between 40k and 30k.  It's fairly obvious that 40k is changing scale and within five years, anything that isn't a Primaris marine will look too small.  Forge World is not likely to follow; aside from using older rules, we're going to be using small marines for the duration.  Pick a primary system and don't count on really fitting into the other. 

 

Primaris marines are expensive.  You'd save money by buying Betrayal at Calth on eBay and a 30k army based on veterans and terminators.  You'll need Rhinos (footslogging doesn't work well, even with Infiltrate or Scout), but 40k (Mars-pattern) Rhinos are more widely accepted than "40k" armor marks because they canonically existed at the time.  For Land Raiders I'd personally pay the small premium to get the Mk IIb kit from FW but you don't have to.  You can also use 40k Land Speeders and Attack Bikes; they're both surprisingly decent in the game.  In 40k that probably works as a Chaos Marine army despite the smaller scale. 

[Custodian Athiair]

Okay thanks for the opinions on acceptance that helps a lot. I'll admit when I first posted this I forgot about the plastic armour box sets in addition to the likes of Calth and Prospero.

 

I've read (mostly) all of the HH books from Forge World so I'm well set in the concept, just wanted to see the opinions when it comes to collecting.

 

You have helped a lot guys thank you :)

 

Think Calth is my first port to call when i get the funds stocked up and my remaining Salamanders completed. (I do have half a box of Calth stuff initially destined for my Salamanders army but could hold them back actually)

[Ryltar Thamior]

All I can say in response to choosing to go with the Heresy plastic boxes instead of 40k and particularly Primaris is ... to echo the Grail Knight from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade ... "You have chosen ... wisely!"

Personally, I love my Truescale Heresy. I would never actually do a regular-scale Marine for the period. But even leaving aside the aesthetics of Mk.X armour turning up in parts during the Heresy Era [it shouldn't, helmets aside potentially], it's worth noting that Truescaling is an expensive hobby. But a very, VERY rewarding one! Those Cataphractii terminators you get in Calth will make for admirable Mk.III if you do later decide to go down that road. 

But with regard to 'regular-scale' marines, I can only echo what the other Frater have said about grabbing Calth [probably less so Prospero - as you'll be unlikely oth ave any use for the Custodes etc. despite them being BEAUTIFUL; although the Tartaros terminators would be quite good for the generally more high-tech and mobile nature of the XXth]. The only serious issue with Calth being the ridicularity of hte Contemptor in that box imo.

HAVING SAID THAT, I did a reasonable amount of research a few months ago for somebody who wanted to know if they could feasibly raid GW plastics to build a Heresy-era army. And what I found was that quite a few Marine boxes DO actually have useable components - you just have to be a bit discerning. For example, iirc the latest Tactical Marines box contains at least one set of Mk.IV [legs and head at least], and Mk.VI [the lattr of which Alpha Legion definitely had access to in numbers, but produced autonomously from purloined plans] - although the power-packs are going to be a little bit of an issue. There's also even precedent somewhat for Godwyn pattern bolters in the Heresy [iirc, there are Marines in one of the Black Books depicted using them, for a start]. But don't over-do any use of more iconically associated 40k-era bits [i.e. 'gothic weirdness'], and remember that chest-eagles and the like are probably not particularly common [although they aren't the Palatine Aquilas of the Emperor's Children in case anyone tries to tell you different]. Purity seals may represent Oaths of Moment, though, and there are no doubt decent 'rationalizations' for other stuff which seems 40k era - just don't over-do it. [once you look into various chapter-specific boxes like death company, sanguinary guard, the black templars' upgrade sprue, and of course Veterans, there are even further ranges of immediately obviouslly useable for 30k bitz] 

Now, in terms of Mk.VII armour and the Mk.VIII bits that crop up from time to time in tactical boxes etc ... funnily enough, these aren't as controversial as one might think. The Imperial Fists art for their Index Astartes article shows a Marine in what definitely appears to be a Mk.VIII style gorget'd power armoured torso with odd legs. As others have said, there's potential scope for incorporating Mk.VII armour into an XXth Legion force as well - who's to say they haven't pirated THOSE plans as well. 

But if you go down this route, i'd enjoin you to not just assemble 'stock' 40k Marines and paint 'em Alpha Legion ... but rather mix up the Heresy era equipment with the later armour marks [so Umbra pattern or better, Phobos pattern bolters with Mk.VII armour - and perhaps making some minor conversions of the Mk.VII suits to make 'em look closer to Mk.V]. Oh, and if you've got the cash for a few resin upgrade sets, mixing those and shoulder-pads in to really emphasize that the Marines in question aren't time-travellers, but actually really of their time and place. 

Another thought could be using Chaos Space Marine boxes, and just trimming down the various ornate arrows and greaves [and obviously, any chaos stars]. This has the advantage of giving you rather archaic looking armour [because it lacks knees, so it's obviously Mk.VIish; and several intersting heads that'll do for Mk.V or similar] and weapons; and in the squad+rhino box's case, actually works out to be decent value [almost]. You could also try buying Khorne Berzerkers although I'm not sure if those are actually still availabe from GW itself [have definitely seen boxes still down teh FLGS] - which have the dual advantages of being in recognizeably 'old' armour MKs, and rather chceap by comparison to more  recent offerings . YMMV if this is worth the occasionally quite ridiculous running poses though. 

I suppose an additional possibility for a chceaper HH army would be to due truescaling not with the easy-to-build Primaris, but with the easy-to-build blood warriors or something. Although while that gets you bodies and torsos that are recognizeably not 40k Imperial Marines, i'm not quite sure if they'd be the right 'look' for Alpha Legion. 

End of the day, though, it's Your Hobby - and these are, to quote TG/1d4chan .. "Your Dudes". If you're just doing friendly games against mates or whatever, then it's up to them whether they're going ot cry 'foul' over you using non-Heresy gear in your Heresy army. [And up to you if you want to play with them if they do]. 

But personally, I really do think you get an awful lot more out of doing a 30k army if you approach it - as others have said - in teh full-on spirit of Historical Wargaming [ok, maybe not *quite* as intensely as some Civil War or WWII gamers who insist on getting everything down to hte buttons right] and build something recognizeably distinct from the standard 40k Marine armies whch you can see just about everywhere. 

Whether that's done by hacking and greenstuffing 40k plastics til they're Mk.V armour or something, and only using the more obviously 40k stuff rather sparingly when mixed in with the components from Calth or whatever ... or by going for a more 'purist' interpretation, is up to you! 

Just remember to come back and start a project log for us to see what you get up to once you're underway :D 



 

[Withershadow]

I don't think I'd like playing a 30K game vs Primaris models. I like a cinematic feel to my HH games, and the significant scale difference would require handwaving away (first results of stolen Primarch project, or tallest members who accompany the Primarchs, eh...).

 

A bigger issue would be that you would effectively be locked into only using Primaris for uniformity, which is so far a very small and repetitive range of models. Alpha Legion could be said to have more model variety than most due to their Rewards of Treason (at least if they ever make our Terminators), so I think you would be pidgeon-holing yourself for little reason. The financial argument falls apart when you consider the cost effectiveness of Prospero and Calth boxes.

 

edit: regarding historical gamers being sticklers, it seems the current political climate of lunacy is starting to infect some of these groups. I had a commission-painted Flames of War Waffen-SS army that was painted right out of historical books, and people were complaining about the swasticas. *shrug* I guess the moral of the story is never to expect anyone to act reasonably or rationally, regardless of the path you pick, and there will always be somebody to complain. Do what you like.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Withershadow