Chosen/Possessed in 8th?

[Khornestar]

 

That would have been pretty cool for sure.

 

What I initially hoped for post 8th full reveal was that our Chosen would have gained an additional wound to be semi Primaris this too would have made the unit more different I feel. 

How would it have made them more different when Possessed and Terminators already have two wounds as well tho? ^^

 

I feel Chosen need some fancy special rule to make them stand out since increasing their shooty capability would reverse their situation with Havocs and just increasing their choppy capability would reverse their situation with Possessed.

Maybe make them a bodyguard unit since CSM don't have any like those, or give them some aura ability that affects nearby CSM units.

 

 

Yeah, I totally agree. I was in the process of typing a similar response when yours popped up.

 

I was thinking about the Plague Marines unit, which is only really coming into its own now that a new kit is being released. New melee and ranged options expand the unit's abilities. I think units that have "recently" had releases (Raptors, Warp Talons, Rubricae, Plague Marines) are more or less done, and the ancient kits are waiting around.

 

I don't really see Possessed getting a new kit ever, but Chosen have a chance. Maybe we'll see some interesting options in it that really set them apart from havocs and melee specialists as well.

 

Or maybe not. Maybe they'll just stay a mediocre hybrid unit. :P

[Commissar K.]

 

How would it have made them more different when Possessed and Terminators already have two wounds as well tho? ^^

 

I feel Chosen need some fancy special rule to make them stand out since increasing their shooty capability would reverse their situation with Havocs and just increasing their choppy capability would reverse their situation with Possessed.

Maybe make them a bodyguard unit since CSM don't have any like those, or give them some aura ability that affects nearby CSM units.

 

Yeah not so much different at all barring theyd be easier to transport and easier to use as a up and close shoot/attrition unit. 

 

Chosen with a bodyguard rule would be really cool for sure. Alternatively I think that a cool rule could also be that they would be able to summon Daemons like a Character.

When we then would make Possessed a unit that we could summon I think we're at least off to a clear distinction between their roles, likewise the Chosen would then also be quite different from Havocs.

 

Edit: 

 

On another note I also think that Mutilators should simply have the option to warp their melee attacks from Lighting Claw to Power Fist. I really don't get why they cannot do that while we have a fast multitude of options in 40K with weapons who have two modes, the Great Cleaver of Khorne comes to mind.

I have never seen Mutilators hit the table even...

Edited August 20, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Cryptix]

What about this:

 

Chosen of the Dark Gods: Once per game, this unit may choose to invoke the nane of the dark gods at the beginning of the shooting phase. They may choose to ignore the normal targeting restrictions when shooting at characters within 12".

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Mutilator should never have been born, Obliterator should have mutilator's rules for close combat with increase point cost. 

 

Chosen should be like Command Squad : single models of Elit Character Sloot with CC2+, CT3+, all close combat weapon option, no ranged weapon (because we got Havoks) beside plasma pistol, doom siren, plague weapon and a "Gift" by the chaos god : a mutation chosen before the battle (like Gift of mutation of the precedent version, but without the random).

 

About the redundancy of chaos entry : don't forget we are not all playing Black Legion (as GW have to remember we are not all playing Death Guard..).

As an Emperor's Children i don't have access to Berzeker (i'm a fluffy player, so "EC Berzeker" because rules interpretation is just an abomination) so i'm glad to get Possessed & Chosen for choppy units. 

[Commissar K.]

Yeah I kind of agree with it. I dont mind the creation of the Mutilator but I do agree with the idea that a Obliterator/Mutilator could be one and the same unit, with the option to go for the melee side or ranged side, splitting them up never really felt much required. If you can grow your arms into any weapon well... I guess you'll pick the weapon you like hehe. I do think that either should remain though, I like how they are a showcase of being in between Spawn and Chaos Marine, with control over their mutations. 

I do think Chosen should indeed be a command squad though the way to showcase this in terms of design can really go in many places. Just having all the gear to me isn't just enough or better put I feel that a unit in terms of design shouldn't just be special due to their weapons. In my opinion that's one of the few flaws 40K suffers from as it leads to these redundancies the moment others have those weapons or a equivelant. Luckily there is actually a good difference between Obliterators and Havocs. The moment they created Warp Talons though you want something different to do with Possessed to begin with. Instead of having Warp Talons basically act as Possessed with Jump Packs...

From a narrative standpoint I do understand as to why someone would like to use Possessed over Berzerkers, at the same time I feel that Chaos Spawn or deep striking/summonning choices likely are just more efficient. We can transport Possessed quite easily but I dont really see that as a big pro. 

[Plaguecaster]

I like Chosen simply for spamming special weapons which they do pretty welll and don't give a damn that Havocs can do the same job because if I am am taking havocs I sure as am not taking any special weapons on them just feels like a waste of a heavy support choice which I would much rather having long ranged weapons. Plus if a chosen unit gets into combat it's more likely to survive than a havoc squad especially with a few dedicated close combat weapons thrown in Edited August 20, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Zodd1888]

Chosen should be our sniper unit. Chaos doesn't really have the stealthy backline sniper feel (sorry Alpha Legion) for the vast majority. Chosen having a special rule to target enemy characters actually sounds pretty fluffy and would make them more unique in role. I like that idea a lot.

[Commissar K.]

I basically like all of the ideas. I think the real awnser to what Chosen should be is more characterful. If we where lucky GW would even have looked at the Deathwatch for example.

Frankly speaking from a design standpoint they are a bit of an oddity too. I think everybody wants to like them, they are the veterans amongst veterans afterall but this isn't clearly represented by anything in particular. For example bringing them closer to Cult Troops would actually make a ton of sence where now they are just too similar to the typical Chaos Space Marine stats and upgrades. From my perspective "just more Wargear" isn't enough to represent their character and nature.

Even something as simple as including them would grand you another CP would represent their ability to act without Commander aswell. In any case that's a lot of narrative and design discussion on a unit we unfortunatly cannot change.

Some things I also think would make Possessed and even Chosen a more interesting thing is the inclusion of Daemonic Weapon upgrades for them specifically. Age of Sigmar has exactly done this with their "chosen" and while it's a small difference it matters and it gives a flavourful idea that these guys are indeed on the path of perhaps becomming the next Chaos Lord, Exalted Champion or Chaos Spawn. 

[Khornestar]

I may have missed this in the 6th edition codex, but in our current book the Possessed entry says they're capable of guiding ships through the warp. That's pretty cool, and makes me feel like they have a lot of potential beyond just being swingy power axe daemons with 7" movement. I like that units in AoS have unique rules that make them more interesting. They did a bit of that for 8th edition of 40k, but a few units could use some more thought to make them special. In an ideal world, anyway. Just having models for them would be great in and of itself.

[Commissar K.]

I absolutely hear you Juggernut. I was actually suprised to see the very little 'turning into Chaos Spawn' rules for Chaos Space Marines this time around because I feel that it would actually be a very interesting concept to play around with also. I know very little about Possessed to be honest but I think the one thing I am missing is how they are indeed Daemon but oterwise have no additional effect by choosing one of the Chaos Gods as their patron and that actually makes very little sence to me.

Imagne for a moment that Possessed too had acces to:
- Unstoppable Ferocity for Khorne
- Ephemeral Form for Tzeentch
- Disgustingly Resilient for Nurgle
- Quicksilver Swiftness for Slaanesh

While for EC that would mean there is no real gain the overal benifits for other Legions and their traits in my opinion would be interesting enough to at least consider them. They'd be slower as Warp Talons but at least more dangerous in combat or had a drastically increased survivability that would actually make their 2 Wounds matter a lot also.

Somehow I think the idea was there but eventually removed, don't ask why.

[Large and Moving Torb]

Re: Possessed vs. Terminators, I'm going to say it depends on what kind of game you're playing. If you are using the Points system for list building, then what's been said before is all pretty accurate and I agree with it. But if you use Power Levels to build your lists, then Possessed should actually be considered a viable option, depending on what the rest of your list looks like. Consider this: 

 

• Using points, for the cost of a unit of Chaos Terminators with combi-bolters and power axes, you can get a unit of roughly 8 Possessed, with a few points left over.
• Using power levels, for the same Terminator squad, you can get a unit of 10 Possessed and still have PL for another cheap unit; for 1 more PL you could put them in a Rhino.

 

Now granted, in the second scenario, you could trick out those same Terminators with chainfists and combi-plasmas, or give them all two lightning claws, but you'll still end up with more attacks with Possessed, on average. And chewing through the extra 10 3+/5++ wounds isn't as easy this edition.

[the jeske]

you count the more attacks as in starting in instant melee in the PL example, right?

[Large and Moving Torb]

you count the more attacks as in starting in instant melee in the PL example, right?

 

Err... no. I'm assuming a second round assault for both, which is reasonable. Assuming the Terminators will get into assault on the turn they Teleport is a bad bet, as P=~0.28. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

You can use Chosen to spam Combi-Bolters. However, Bikers do that PLUS being more durable and able to include anti-tank as well as fast movement. You'd have to buy the Chosen a Rhino to keep up and that would put them in the same cost range as the bikes....unless you clown car 2 5-man Chosen squads into one Rhino, but then you're not saving all that much over 10 Bikers and the extra advantages of the latter make up for it.

 

So basically, Chosen are for Alpha Legion or Rapid Fire-spamming Black Legion foot horde builds that can take advantage of the advance + fire buff....and that last one is really a gimmick.

 

They really should have gotten their Infiltrate back, or some equivalent. They could Infiltrate for something like 4 editions and then just lost it in 6th.

 

Note that this does NOT apply to their cousins in the Fallen, who have a great morale buff and reroll 1's to hit when not moving, even without a character. Those guys can make a really nasty Plasma gunline. Overcharge every day, bro.

Edited August 20, 2017 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Sception]

advance plus fire isn't really a buff though.  Rapid fire is good for double shot, black legion 'buff' strips that away when you use it, and puts a penalty on the shots you still have left over.  The result isn't enough dakka to justify walking them instead of using a transport.

 

They need to be in rapid fire range to be worth using, and the ways that put them there add enough to their cost that you might aw well take bikes or terminators instead.

 

I like chosen a lot, but they really aren't good.  At least basic CSMs can get obsec.

 

Chosen are a vanity unit.  If you're concerned with winning, take cults, bikes, havocs, or terminators instead, depending on what you're using them for.

 

 

Possessed are a lot closer to being good.  Still have issues, but they're not as glaring.

 

 

Neither unit gets much out of the black legion trait, but then again almost no units do.  Maybe bikes.  Maybe rubrics.  But even then....

[Gothical]

I like Chosen for the ability to mix special weapons and upgraded melee weapons in the same unit. A heavy weapon might be worth a look now that moving is only a -1 To Hit rather than 6s. Taking something like 3 Meltaguns, 2 sets of twin Lightning Claws and a Combi Weapon plus Maul/Power Fist on the Champion, along with Chainswords on the remaining models, gives a unit with a lot of flexible punch (and other set-ups are equally viable). This gives them a niche over Havocs.

 

The main flaw is that (especially given how Combi-Weapons work now) they are largely outclassed by Terminators, who are more survivable and can Deepstrike. However, I see the units as being able to work together. Chosen are nearly half the cost of Terminators (before upgrades) and can also take a Rhino as a transport (as opposed to a Land Raider). Using Rhino-Chosen to advance up the board and then disembark on the same turn that Terminators come in from Teleport Assault is going to force tough target priority choices on the opponent.

 

Going back to Possessed for the moment, chatting to some of my local players they feel the only remaining problem is the lack of reliable attacks, and said they felt D3+1 would make them perfect. The main issue I can see here is that in the new edition models typically have less attacks than they used to (for instance, charging Raptors have 2A with Chainswords) and having an average of 3A with the potential for 4A would likely mean their points have to rise, which would then reduce their viability compared to much cheaper Berzerkers.

[Sception]

The problem with this is that once you count the rhino, you're pushing a cost where you could have just purchased more terminators, and forced that same high priority choice a turn earlier by deep striking turn one instead of delaying for the rhinos to get into position.

 

Also, on that first turn?  There's a ton of points off the board and only those rhinos to target.  If you don't get first turn, they're going to get blown away leaving your chosen to advance on foot - not a good situation for them.

 

If chosen could infiltrate as per the alpha legion strat, but just as a default rule, they'd be pretty amazing.  As it is, they need something else to justify the hassle of delivering them.  Maybe some sort of bodyguard rule enhancing a nearby character or being enhanced by a character nearby?  Maybe some sort of added durability, like an extra wound or 'chaos armor' for a 2+ save?  Maybe some unique stratagems, like a shoot-twice stratagem just for chosen, that could be used in addition to the helbrute and slaanesh strats that do the same?  I don't know.  Something.  As it is - 'havocs but more expensive for +1 attack, and trading the option for heavy weapons for the option to take power weapons instead' still just isn't a particularly great starting point.

 

I still love mine.  I still run them, but yeah, Trying to get much use out of them in my Black Legion army is a pain.  I'd start running them as Alphas in a side detachment, but the fact that they're in the same colors as the rest of my army would probably make that too confusing.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

You can use Chosen to spam Combi-Bolters. However, Bikers do that PLUS being more durable and able to include anti-tank as well as fast movement. You'd have to buy the Chosen a Rhino to keep up and that would put them in the same cost range as the bikes....unless you clown car 2 5-man Chosen squads into one Rhino, but then you're not saving all that much over 10 Bikers and the extra advantages of the latter make up for it.

 

So basically, Chosen are for Alpha Legion or Rapid Fire-spamming Black Legion foot horde builds that can take advantage of the advance + fire buff....and that last one is really a gimmick.

 

They really should have gotten their Infiltrate back, or some equivalent. They could Infiltrate for something like 4 editions and then just lost it in 6th.

 

Note that this does NOT apply to their cousins in the Fallen, who have a great morale buff and reroll 1's to hit when not moving, even without a character. Those guys can make a really nasty Plasma gunline. Overcharge every day, bro.

Yep. Like I said, advance and fire Chosen for BL are basically a gimmick....not really worth it.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

The problem with this is that once you count the rhino, you're pushing a cost where you could have just purchased more terminators, and forced that same high priority choice a turn earlier by deep striking turn one instead of delaying for the rhinos to get into position.

 

Also, on that first turn?  There's a ton of points off the board and only those rhinos to target.  If you don't get first turn, they're going to get blown away leaving your chosen to advance on foot - not a good situation for them.

 

If chosen could infiltrate as per the alpha legion strat, but just as a default rule, they'd be pretty amazing.  As it is, they need something else to justify the hassle of delivering them.  Maybe some sort of bodyguard rule enhancing a nearby character or being enhanced by a character nearby?  Maybe some sort of added durability, like an extra wound or 'chaos armor' for a 2+ save?  Maybe some unique stratagems, like a shoot-twice stratagem just for chosen, that could be used in addition to the helbrute and slaanesh strats that do the same?  I don't know.  Something.  As it is - 'havocs but more expensive for +1 attack, and trading the option for heavy weapons for the option to take power weapons instead' still just isn't a particularly great starting point.

 

I still love mine.  I still run them, but yeah, Trying to get much use out of them in my Black Legion army is a pain.  I'd start running them as Alphas in a side detachment, but the fact that they're in the same colors as the rest of my army would probably make that too confusing.

That confusion is what they want, though, right?

 

Just paint one shoulder pad blue-green as a note that they're there in disguise.

 

Or you could just paint the trim over in red and make them Fallen. :)

[Sception]

I'm not repainting my chosen.  Took me a year to paint them already.  :p

[Brom MKIV]

Haven't ran chosen yet although I may find a reason down the road. As mentioned though they get beaten out by noise marines on one hand and termies on the other. That said I still think they are playable. 

 

Possessed are not IMO. I've fielded them a few times now, always 8-10 strong always alpha legion and always infiltrated via FO. They have two major problems I did not identify on paper and one I did.

 

The first is random attacks. I knew this would hurt but in-game its too much requiring CP "fuel" to keep them reliable and when combined with these other two...

Multi-wound and moral phase still make these guys seem over costed at 22 pts a model. 

Lastly and this might be a surprise, but no access to a PF champ. Yep the deal breaker. Twice they've been completely shut down because of a fething charging transport they could not scratch and only exacerbated by rolling 1 on their attacks characteristic. Done with them for now, at least until GW ups their attacks by +1. Edit- and/or allows them to fall back and still charge or even gives them champion equipment access.  

Edited August 21, 2017 by Brom MKIV

[Gothical]

The problem with this is that once you count the rhino, you're pushing a cost where you could have just purchased more terminators, and forced that same high priority choice a turn earlier by deep striking turn one instead of delaying for the rhinos to get into position.

 

Also, on that first turn?  There's a ton of points off the board and only those rhinos to target.  If you don't get first turn, they're going to get blown away leaving your chosen to advance on foot - not a good situation for them.

 

 

That is fair that I could just be using double-Terminators, but it is certainly not only those Rhinos to target - exactly what else is there depends on points level and play-style I'm aiming for that day, but they will be supported by a range of Dreadnoughts, Predators, Vindicators, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Defilers, Land Raiders and other Rhino-based squads.

 

I also try to avoid deploying in the open where possible precisely to avoid losing key vehicles early on, hence why I hold the Terminators back - both units also do well held back and arriving 2nd/3rd turn either just in advance of, or at the same time as, the rest of the army's aggressive elements - it is not merely for mutual support between just those two units.

[Sception]

I'm not saying you have nothing else, but with plasma termies and plasma chosen not on the table, whatever you do have on the table is 400ish points shy of what your opponent has to throw at it, and thats lopsided enough that that rhino is likely to be pretty exposed.

[Panzer]

Really can't argue against a bigger number of Terminators vs Chosen in a Rhino. Should be pretty obvious what's more versatile, more durable and has more punch.

Chosen simply get outclassed by so many other units in the CSM Codex, it's not even funny anymore and the only real way to fix it is by giving them some special rule that increases their utility (increasing their damage output would just create the same problem for another unit).

[intel31337]

In a vacuum, I would agree that possessed are not pallet-able due to random attacks. But 8th ed seems more about the buffing abilities. Diabolic Strength (+2S +1A) goes a long way in addressing the random attacks issue. (CORRECTION: diabolic S only works for single model, not the whole unit.. random attacks suck)

 

Also, worth pointing out that they are daemons, which could (potentially) bring a host of other benefits when Daemon codex drops. I know its hopeful thinking at this point but it could go a long way to help out our daemonkin units.

 

Already we can run things like Changeling's aura, combined with the Alpha Legion trait on a Tz possessed and it gives the unit a -2 to hit debuff on anything over 12" away (marines suddenly shooting like orks - yes please). Herald aura bumps up the Str. Combined with Diabolic Str gets them up to important that S8 threshold. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by intel31337