CSM codex faq out

[Sception]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/20/chaos-space-marines-and-grey-knights-updates-now-availablegw-homepage-post-4/

 

High points:

 

Cult legions get their cult troops

 

Champions can carry melee weapons AND a combi weapon

 

Daemon princes get legion traits

 

- open issues -

 

still nothing to make fabius bile count as a 'chaos space marine' unit/character for CSM strats & artefacts or the obsec troop rule

[Commissar K.]

Might aswell put the whole shebang on here right?

Page 116 – Add the following to the last paragraph: ‘If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion, and if a unit has the Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle keywords, it cannot be from the Emperor’s Children Legion. In addition, Psykers cannot be from the World Eaters Legion.’

 

Page 117 – Champion Equipment Change the second heading to read: ‘One of the champion’s weapons can be chosen from the following list:’

 

Page 121 – Cypher, Abilities Add the following ability: ‘No-one’s Puppet: Cypher cannot use the Daemonic Ritual ability, even though he has the Chaos and Character keywords.’

 

Page 132 – Khorne Berzerkers, Abilities Add the following ability: ‘Berzerker Horde: The Battlefield Role of World Eaters Khorne Berzerkers is Troops instead of Elites.’

 

Page 135 – Noise Marines, Abilities Add the following ability: ‘Masters of the Kakophoni: The Battlefield Role of Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites.’

 

Page 146 – Chaos Predator, Damage chart Change the top value under ‘Remaining W’ to read ‘6-11+’. Change the second value under ‘Remaining W’ to read ‘3-5’.

 

Page 157 – Abilities, Legion Traits Change the first sentence of rules text to read: ‘If your army is Battle-forged, all Daemon Prince, Infantry, Bikers and Helbrute units in Chaos Space Marine Detachments gain a Legion Trait, so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Legion.’

 

Page 158 – Gifts of Chaos Add the following sentence: ‘You can only use this Stratagem once per battle.’

Page 158 – Chaos Boon Change the first sentence of rules text to read: ‘You can use this Stratagem at the end of a Fight phase in which one of your Heretic Astartes Characters (excluding Daemon Characters) slays an enemy Character, Vehicle or Monster.’

 

Page 161 – Mark of Tzeentch: Weaver of Fates Change the third sentence of rules text to read: ‘Until the start of your next Psychic phase, the invulnerable save of that unit is improved by 1 (to a maximum of 3+).

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Death Guard still awaiting their codex.

[Large and Moving Torb]

Glad they cleared up the cult troops thing. 

 

Was there ever an explanation as to why the design studio left out the bike option for Lords and Sorcerers, as well as the mark-specific steeds?

[Commissar K.]

 

Was there ever an explanation as to why the design studio left out the bike option for Lords and Sorcerers, as well as the mark-specific steeds?

Presumably because Games Workshop doesn't sell those models (anymore), however this does not hold truth for all cases so we don't know officially.

 

As mentioned in other topics my guess is that they will come back on this, just not now.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Well you can always use the profil for those in the Index.

 

And there is always the chances that they release Lords and Sorcs on bikes/steeds models in the futur.

 

They did release a Sorceror on Disc when Magnus wrath came out so.

[ChaosReigns]

Wow! World Eaters and Emperor's Children can take their respective Cult Marines as troops again and the whole combi-weapon debate was also resolved in favour of the Traitor Legions. What a time to be alive. Edited August 21, 2017 by ChaosReigns

[Commissar K.]

Wow! World Eaters and Emperor's Children can take their respective Cult Marines as troops again and the whole combi-weapon debate was also resolved in favour of the Traitor Legions. What a time to be alive.

All I now hope for in 1.1 is for Word Bearers is that Daemon Troops for them count as Shadowy Allies as part of their Legion Trait.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Large and Moving Torb]

Well you can always use the profil for those in the Index.

 

And there is always the chances that they release Lords and Sorcs on bikes/steeds models in the futur.

 

They did release a Sorceror on Disc when Magnus wrath came out so.

 

Okay, I forgot about the preview they did of the codices where they said you can use the index sheets. Though, apparently you get whacked using one of the Lord or Sorcerer steed profiles. Since they are listed as cavalry, they can't benefit from Legion traits. Also, they can't use the Chaos Boon stratagem as they are DAEMON CHARACTERS (from this latest FAQ). Lame; hope they change this in a future FAQ. But seems like they can still take Warlord traits and Artefacts. 

 

Biker Characters seem safe though.

[Dardl]

People whined so much that GW caved on the troop choices. Ridiculous.  Competitive players were just butt hurt because they couldn't spam berserkers in a Battalion detachments.

Instead of trying to find a new creative way around it they whined and whined until gw caved, What a time to be alive indeed.   

[Panzer]

Gotta love how some people claim to know what GW intended while it's very much in the realm of possibilities that they could have made a mistake instead....I mean it's not the first time they did mistakes, isn't it.

[Commissar K.]

People whined so much that GW caved on the troop choices. Ridiculous.  Competitive players were just butt hurt because they couldn't spam berserkers in a Battalion detachments.

 

Instead of trying to find a new creative way around it they whined and whined until gw caved, What a time to be alive indeed.   

How on earth do you see this as whining? If Games Workshop did not present us with a Index a few months ago for the new edition that exactly states that they are Troop choices you shouldn't be suprised that GW lives by what they wrote in the past on that. By all means Berzerker Horde is not a new rule for this edition and neither is the EC equivalent. In addition you cannot stick World Eater and Emperor's Children Legion Keyword onto anything, there is a legit limitation to it. 

 

The creative new way is the narrative way and that's how GW continious to row their boat.

[ChaosReigns]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you there Dardl. Taking the relevant Cult unit as troops is one of the principal reasons for playing one of the Cult Legions. Making it onerous or otherwise disadvantageous to take to take Cult Marines over other troops in the Cult Legions would be like making it disadvantageous to take a Dark Apostle as an HQ in a Word Bearers army. Narratively it doesn't make any sense, and moreover, from the perspective of rules design it also makes no sense at all for Games Workshop to let the Cult Legions take their Cult Marines as troops in the index only to take that away from them when the codex drops two months later. Not to mention it's pretty arbitrary to let two of the Cult Legions have their respective Cult Marines as troops while the other two are deprived of that possibility. If Games Workshop did cave to complaints - good, this was a legitimate complaint and I'm glad the days of Games Workshop ignoring the Chaos community and treating their setting's principal antagonist as a second class citizen are over.

 

As I've said before I have absolutely no skin in this game because I play Word Bearers and I'm working on a Thousand Sons army right now. No Cult Marines of any description in a Word Bearers army and Thousand Sons weren't affected by this ruling one way or another.

[Azekai]

People whined so much that GW caved on the troop choices. Ridiculous.  Competitive players were just butt hurt because they couldn't spam berserkers in a Battalion detachments.

 

Instead of trying to find a new creative way around it they whined and whined until gw caved, What a time to be alive indeed.   

WE not getting berserker troops is silly. The frothing crazies have been troops options for the legion for years, so why change now? Making cult troops elites regardless of legion alignment goes against precedent, not just in terms of rules but also in how groups like the World Eaters are presented. It seems very likely to me that the omission of cult units as troops for god-aligned legions was just that... an omission.

 

Furthermore, the idea that berserkers are now some cheese unit to be spammed is silly. They are good at what they do, but they have clear weaknesses. I fight berserker 'spam' regularly with my Death Guard and I do fine. Shoot them on their way in, let them plow into your chaff... and then shoot them again. The Khornate flunkies die like everything else. 

 

[HeresyBeliever]

I am still currently testing all units in 8th and Beserkers are good but not game changing.

 

Yes they can rip through poor / other combat units quickly but if they don't kill the unit or you put them against something with an invol save and they get to attack back they die just as quick as any other SM unit. 

[Commissar K.]

Certainly and thats a good thing honestly. Granted with Power Fist getting the job done for World Eaters isnt too difficult.

[Sception]

durability and delivery is a pain for zerks, yeah.  Honestly, I'd probably take infiltrating elite alpha legion zerks over troop world eater zerks, given a choice between the two.

[Commissar K.]

You could go that Elite route, it really depends on your intention for them. As going heavier on the melee side with World Eaters has the additional bonus that you can have a ton of relevant Troops which furthermore drastically increases the WE and EC players chances to grab those objectives. This difference might seem small on paper but also means that our Troops can focus onto destroying other Troops. While when you pick Berzerkers as Elites in other Legions you still have to mind Objective grabbing with Troops such as regular CSM, Cultists or indeed Daemons (and the latter makes gaining Legion Traits ever so slightly more difficult). 

So in the same responce as HeresyBeliever, it's certainly true that they rock versus other poor/combat units but the fact of the matter is that these too are usually Troops and because they are Troops themselves also for World Eaters its actually very easy to create an army that has no poor/combat units. At least I do not count Berzerkers towards poor combat units...

Transports for Chaos with just the Codex is indeed limited. The moment you do include Imperial Armour however this all changes, Spartan, Dreadclaw and Storm Eagle are all very relevant pieces that also happen to get your Berzerkers from A to B in a really nice way whilst being relevant themselves also, no additional Stratagem boosts required.

Now this absolutely doesn't mean WE and EC are better as other Legions, all it means that if you want to leverage an advantage in melee WE deliver, likewise if you want to have a very flexible ranged/melee mix, EC deliver. The downside offcourse is that the moment you choose this the same detachment cannot include Plague Marines and Rubric Marines who both have significant advantages in other areas as Berzerkers and Noise Marines. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Dardl]

Just want to start off lads by saying the comment came across as WAY more salty than intended, so apologies for that. 

I really should have been more clear in that I was specifically talking about the competitive players that just play this editions winning list and there is nothing wrong with that
but from the beginning GW stated that if they saw tournament lists being spammed they would do something about it and I think that's what happened here. I honestly beleive
that it was a move to curb spam lists to try encourage players to be more creative with detachments and different army compositions. Clearly our opinions differ and I could obviously be very wrong. 

I play Death Guard as one of my armies and I would be gutted if GW removed plague marines as troops choices but saying that, there are other detachments for a reason. I wouldn't go on boards and Facebook groups and whine about it until gw changed it back, I would adapt as all good generals must! 

And to be frank having a seperate Vanguard detachment of A Khorne hq and Khorne berserkers sounds very fluffy to me along side a base world eaters detachment. 

Sure there would be a penalty to CP but that's just part of spamming possibly the best melee unit in the codex. 

[Sception]

I left my open questions on the 40k facebook page post about the new FAQs.  Specifically:

 

Should Fabius Bile count as a CSM unit/character for the Despoilers of the Galaxy, CSM stratagems, and CSM artefacts rules?  Because as of the current codex wording, he doesn't.

 

AND

 

What happens to an unaligned unit's Icon of Vengeance if you use the 'Beseech the Dark Gods' stratagem to give them one of the four gods' keywords?  Do they lose the undivided icon, keep it as is, or does it swap with the appropriate aligned icon?

[Commissar K.]

Dardl I don't really get why you'd be so focused on spamming being an issue. The real issue that presented itself here is that from a narrative and design perspective "spamming Berzerkers" is exactly what World Eaters do, always did and what makes them different from other Legions.
In that same vein Emperor's Children are unique with their spammed sound based weaponry.

Not every move GW makes is one you need to accept. Many of us have invested thousands of dollars or euros in this hobby and 'new GW' has said they care abour their player base and now have shown us how much they do. This is good. However acting as if Games Workshop is perfect and makes no mistakes is living a lie. That's something most players morally speaking can't accept and rightfully so, they have invested in this compagny.

What this boils down to is that if you get informed that this new edition will allow you to create an army around say Berzerkers and two months later you can't your simply crushing creative hobbiest plans. GW too is fully aware of that and it's something you can have an opinion about. Luckily we're not living under some tyranny that forces you to accept every change directly.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Dardl]

Dardl I don't really get why you'd be so focused on spamming being an issue. The real issue that presented itself here is that from a narrative and design perspective "spamming Berzerkers" is exactly what World Eaters do, always did and what makes them different from other Legions.

In that same vein Emperor's Children are unique with their spammed sound based weaponry.

 

Not every move GW makes is one you need to accept. Many of us have invested thousands of dollars or euros in this hobby and 'new GW' has said they care abour their player base and now have shown us how much they do. This is good. However acting as if Games Workshop is perfect and makes no mistakes is living a lie. That's something most players morally speaking can't accept and rightfully so, they have invested in this compagny.

 

What this boils down to is that if you get informed that this new edition will allow you to create an army around say Berzerkers and two months later you can't your simply crushing creative hobbiest plans. GW too is fully aware of that and it's something you can have an opinion about. Luckily we're not living under some tyranny that forces you to accept every change directly.

But you can spam with a Vanguard detachment? It's just not the way you want to spam therefore you can't? People aren't whining (yes whining) because they can't spam Zerkers in their WE army they are whining because they can't do it in a 3 cp detachment. 

 

And you don't need to let me know that GW aren't perfect. 

 

I bought traitor legions just like everyone else. 

[Commissar K.]

 

But you can spam with a Vanguard detachment? It's just not the way you want to spam therefore you can't? People aren't whining (yes whining) because they can't spam Zerkers in their WE army they are whining because they can't do it in a 3 cp detachment. 

 

And you don't need to let me know that GW aren't perfect. 

 

I bought traitor legions just like everyone else. 

 

The point is that World Eaters spam them because they are Troop choices for them for a mighty long time now, you can draw that back to 3rd edition even. There is a ton of narrative designs and editions you can look through to see why exactly World Eaters have Berzerkers as Troop choices.

 

It's not about detachments, spamming, CP or other options, it's about keeping a Troop choice a Troop choice for an army that has such units as a Troop choice since the early 2000.

[Sception]

They were whining because the new codex was telling them they should be running a bunch of basic CSMs in place of their berzerkers or noise marines when they knew and GW knew and they knew /that/ GW knew that sooner or later they'll be getting cult legion codeces just like the thousand sons and death guard where basic CSMs won't even be an option for them to take in the first place.

[Panzer]

Berzerkers aside...EC player were complaining because Noise Marines weren't better in a EC army than in any other mixed god army. Actually they were worse than in a Alpha Legion army even for example.

 

No, I don't believe it for even one second that GW intended them to be Elites and just adjusted it based on feedback. It's much more likely that they simply forgot about it as they forgot about the Artefact Stratagem being one-use only and as they forgot about EC and WE being able to take only Slaanesh/Khorne units (especially since they corrected their wording via Errata for the Index already).

Most of the Codices we're going to see till Christmas are probably already printed so we will see many cases where the Codex are lacking something they fixed via Errata in the Index and need to fix via Errata for the Codex as well again.