CSM codex faq out

[Dardl]

But honestly lads why not just three Vanguard detachments instead of one battalion? I seen several comments on the Warhammer Facebook page Where they tried to explain that a vanguard detachment can still be used to spam zerkers but the players were too busy crying about the lost troop choice to even bother trying to understand a different road. Raptors aren't troop choices for my Night Lords so I run three outrider detachments? No it's because people want several battalion detachments for cp's which has NOTHING to do with narrative. 

[Aothaine]

Good times! Our Daemon Princes get our Legion traits now! ^_^

 

I am all-around happy with the quick FAQ and rules updates. Really hoping GW updates their codices on iTunes, or gives me an option to pay like $1-2 to update it with the rules changes when they come up.

 

I don't have my rules on me. Anyone know if the damage chart on the preds is a boon or a curse?

[Commissar K.]

But honestly lads why not just three Vanguard detachments instead of one battalion? I seen several comments on the Warhammer Facebook page Where they tried to explain that a vanguard detachment can still be used to spam zerkers but the players were too busy crying about the lost troop choice to even bother trying to understand a different road. Raptors aren't troop choices for my Night Lords so I run three outrider detachments? No it's because people want several battalion detachments for cp's which has NOTHING to do with narrative. 

The difference is that this edition did not give Night Lords Raptor Troop choices to begin with.

What this edition did start out with is with Berzerkers and Noise Marines as possible Troop choices. This rule remained in effect.

[Panzer]

But honestly lads why not just three Vanguard detachments instead of one battalion? I seen several comments on the Warhammer Facebook page Where they tried to explain that a vanguard detachment can still be used to spam zerkers but the players were too busy crying about the lost troop choice to even bother trying to understand a different road. Raptors aren't troop choices for my Night Lords so I run three outrider detachments? No it's because people want several battalion detachments for cp's which has NOTHING to do with narrative. 

Because 9+ Berzerker units would be extremely overkill.

Just because you want them to be the core of your list in more or less bigger numbers it doesn't mean you don't want anything else.

As WE player you want many Berzerker in your list because it's fluffy and your signature unit but you don't want to get punished for it by having less CP than others.

 

Also having something taken away always feels worse. That's a simple psychological fact. Street scammer use that to convince people to take part in their little games (they give you money first so you get into the mindset that you have it and then take it away to make you want to have it back. It works thousand times better than just offering money).

 

It literally has nothing to do with being able to spam a unit. It's all about having the core&backbone of your army represented as Troop choice as it's just and proper and as any CSM army has it with the generic CSM units and loyalist Marines with their Tactical units.

 

It appears you can't understand the mindset of a Cult Legion player and that's fine but the discussion really isn't going anywhere this way.

 

 

EDIT: also the fact that it's to be expected that WE and EC get those units as Troop choice once they get their own Codex anyway so those player would be 'forced' to buy a lot of Cultists or generic CSM now to use a Battalion detachment even tho they won't be able to use them in the future (most likely).

Edited August 21, 2017 by sfPanzer

[the jeske]

But honestly lads why not just three Vanguard detachments instead of one battalion? I seen several comments on the Warhammer Facebook page Where they tried to explain that a vanguard detachment can still be used to spam zerkers but the players were too busy crying about the lost troop choice to even bother trying to understand a different road. Raptors aren't troop choices for my Night Lords so I run three outrider detachments? No it's because people want several battalion detachments for cp's which has NOTHING to do with narrative. 

well more efficient is something people will want, although you should remember that the zerkers were troops for a long time, at least since 3ed. Raptors were troops for what , 5-6 months?

[Dardl]

 

But honestly lads why not just three Vanguard detachments instead of one battalion? I seen several comments on the Warhammer Facebook page Where they tried to explain that a vanguard detachment can still be used to spam zerkers but the players were too busy crying about the lost troop choice to even bother trying to understand a different road. Raptors aren't troop choices for my Night Lords so I run three outrider detachments? No it's because people want several battalion detachments for cp's which has NOTHING to do with narrative. 

Because 9+ Berzerker units would be extremely overkill.

Just because you want them to be the core of your list in more or less bigger numbers it doesn't mean you don't want anything else.

As WE player you want many Berzerker in your list because it's fluffy and your signature unit but you don't want to get punished for it by having less CP than others.

 

Also having something taken away always feels worse. That's a simple psychological fact. Street scammer use that to convince people to take part in their little games (they give you money first so you get into the mindset that you have it and then take it away to make you want to have it back. It works thousand times better than just offering money).

 

It literally has nothing to do with being able to spam a unit. It's all about having the core&backbone of your army represented as Troop choice as it's just and proper and as any CSM army has it with the generic CSM units and loyalist Marines with their Tactical units.

 

It appears you can't understand the mindset of a Cult Legion player and that's fine but the discussion really isn't going anywhere this way.

 

 

EDIT: also the fact that it's to be expected that WE and EC get those units as Troop choice once they get their own Codex anyway so those player would be 'forced' to buy a lot of Cultists or generic CSM now to use a Battalion detachment even tho they won't be able to use them in the future (most likely).

 

We will just have to agree to disagree. I honestly believe underneath it all it's just people not getting their own way. They support any change that works for them and are against any change that is against. 

 

 

I am a cult legion player. As stated earlier I am a death guard player. In fact it was my first army all those years ago. 

[Panzer]

 

We will just have to agree to disagree. I honestly believe underneath it all it's just people not getting their own way. They support any change that works for them and are against any change that is against. 

 

Yeah I think we have to.

Although isn't that just human? To support change that's in ones favor and fight against change that isn't? I mean it would be pretty dumb to support change that's not in your favor (something that breaks the game is never in ones favor even if your own army profits from it).

[Dardl]

 

 

We will just have to agree to disagree. I honestly believe underneath it all it's just people not getting their own way. They support any change that works for them and are against any change that is against. 

 

Yeah I think we have to.

Although isn't that just human? To support change that's in ones favor and fight against change that isn't? I mean it would be pretty dumb to support change that's not in your favor (something that breaks the game is never in ones favor even if your own army profits from it).

 

I suppose it is! Unless you're a filthy loyalist. nothing they do is right or human ever. Your last point in brackets I agree with 120%

[Closet Skeleton]

No it's because people want several battalion detachments for cp's which has NOTHING to do with narrative. 

 

World Eaters need command points for denying the witch while everyone else gets to do that for free with their sorcerers.

[Panzer]

 

No it's because people want several battalion detachments for cp's which has NOTHING to do with narrative.

 

World Eaters need command points for denying the witch while everyone else gets to do that for free with their sorcerers.

 

Well Sorcerer aren't exactly free and have only a limited range where they can try to deny but yeah their denying ability is no limited resource. WE indeed need CP to do something against psychic powers.

[Bluthusten]

You can take Karanak and Flesh Hounds to deny something :D

[Sception]

Regardless of any defenses of taking cult troops from the cult legions, or justifications for doing so, that short but miserable chapter can now be consigned to history.  Like it or lump it, it little matters now.

[Yarmoss]

 

 

But honestly lads why not just three Vanguard detachments instead of one battalion? I seen several comments on the Warhammer Facebook page Where they tried to explain that a vanguard detachment can still be used to spam zerkers but the players were too busy crying about the lost troop choice to even bother trying to understand a different road. Raptors aren't troop choices for my Night Lords so I run three outrider detachments? No it's because people want several battalion detachments for cp's which has NOTHING to do with narrative. 

Because 9+ Berzerker units would be extremely overkill.

Just because you want them to be the core of your list in more or less bigger numbers it doesn't mean you don't want anything else.

As WE player you want many Berzerker in your list because it's fluffy and your signature unit but you don't want to get punished for it by having less CP than others.

 

Also having something taken away always feels worse. That's a simple psychological fact. Street scammer use that to convince people to take part in their little games (they give you money first so you get into the mindset that you have it and then take it away to make you want to have it back. It works thousand times better than just offering money).

 

It literally has nothing to do with being able to spam a unit. It's all about having the core&backbone of your army represented as Troop choice as it's just and proper and as any CSM army has it with the generic CSM units and loyalist Marines with their Tactical units.

 

It appears you can't understand the mindset of a Cult Legion player and that's fine but the discussion really isn't going anywhere this way.

 

 

EDIT: also the fact that it's to be expected that WE and EC get those units as Troop choice once they get their own Codex anyway so those player would be 'forced' to buy a lot of Cultists or generic CSM now to use a Battalion detachment even tho they won't be able to use them in the future (most likely).

 

We will just have to agree to disagree. I honestly believe underneath it all it's just people not getting their own way. They support any change that works for them and are against any change that is against. 

 

 

I am a cult legion player. As stated earlier I am a death guard player. In fact it was my first army all those years ago. 

 

 

 

You seem to be forgetting that Bezerkers and Noise Marines as Elites cant capture objectives like Troops can (thanks to the newly re-named Objective Secured). Not only that, but if I'm filling up my Eilites with Noise Marines, and want to run some Terminators or Sicarans, then I need to run even more Elites detachments with compulsory HQ tax. And then some Chaos Marine or Cultist chaff to actually capture objectives.

 

Not only is running EC without NM as troops un-fluffy, it puts me at a disadvantage. Its nothing to do with spamming NM. At ~250 points for 10 of them with sonic weapons, who can afford to spam them anyway?

[Plaguecaster]

^^^^^^

Please don't bring fluff into it as it has nothing to do with it otherwise Beserkers should never be troops fluffwise as they would never bother trying to take objectives in the first place the only objective they care about is killing the enemy

 

 

Can we all just get over it now, for whatever reason Beserkers and Noise marines are troops who cares why or why not they should be they just are now please let it be the end of the discussion

[Slayer le Boucher]

Cult Legions always had Cult units as Cult troops.

 

Zerkers has always been Troops for World Eaters

Rubrics has always been Troops for 1KSons

Noise Marines has always been Troops for EC's

And Plagues has always been Troops for DG.

 

So give it a rest allready.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

^^^^^^

Please don't bring fluff into it as it has nothing to do with it otherwise Beserkers should never be troops fluffwise as they would never bother trying to take objectives in the first place the only objective they care about is killing the enemy

 

 

Can we all just get over it now, for whatever reason Beserkers and Noise marines are troops who cares why or why not they should be they just are now please let it be the end of the discussion

You say that like ANY World Eater would bother with holding an objective instead of using his chainsword or axe to deliver more skulls to the skull throne. This is still a game and not every army can play exactly like the fluff.. fluff GW consistently changes to fit whatever they want it to fit. As has already been said Cult units have been troops for a very long time. As a DG player do you think it makes sense for PMs to not be troops in your own codex? What about Rubrics not being troops for TS? No, this is the way it always should have been. 

[Plaguecaster]

^^^^

Mate give it a rest I wasn't saying they shouldn't be troops far from it all I was saying using "FLUFF" as an excuse for justifying force organisation is stupid and has should have no impact on the game since the post above me claimed it was unfuffy not too

 

Frankly as I stated before (which you quoted but ignored) who cares they are troops now lets leave it at that

Edited August 22, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Azekai]

^^^^

Mate give it a rest I wasn't saying they shouldn't be troops far from it all I was saying using "FLUFF" as an excuse for justifying force organisation is stupid and has should have no impact on the game since the post above me claimed it was unfuffy not too

 

Frankly as I stated before (which you quoted but ignored) who cares they are troops now lets leave it at that

Posting repeatedly about how the discussion is pointless seems silly. No one is holding a bolter to your head.

 

That aside, I think you are wrong about there being no in-game reason for zerkers to hold objectives. The 4th ed dex has a story called 'Let The Blood Flow' (pg 49) that features Khârn killing a number of his fellow berzerkers. The zerkers are shown speaking and taking cover from artillery despite their desire to Kill-Maim-Burn^TM. They are certainly more rational than the common stereotype portrays. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Azekai

[Commissar K.]

To those who think Cult Legions should not have Cult Units as Troops I can only say try to read into the past, see how it really made the Legions different in the first place. At the same time World Eaters have the same type of narrative as others, they get their tasks done. If there are some who want to read into how the Butcher's Nails influence you feel free to pick up the Betrayer book from the Horus Heresy series. Long story short, Butcher's Nails most certainly turn you into a maniac once the battle starts but by Chaos Space Marine standards it isn't 'more crazy' as any of the other Traitor Legions with their own set of dark tactical preforance. Slaughter is not exclusive to World Eaters.

Berserkers are and always have been what set World Eaters apart from other Legions. Both post and pre Heresy. Not only is this important to note for narrative it's also the only 100% Khorne mortal unit that is not Daemon and has been for an extremely long time. Their mark cannot change either because of narrative design. This same narrative design is now also applied to them and their origen ties to World Eaters, like we should see with all Cult Legion specific adaptation of their unit.

Not knowing this past is the only reason why I can see some thinking it came forth out of whining, all the while this update just informs you that the rules presented initially in the Index still apply, like many more rules from several Index do. There is a certain pro and con to playing World Eaters and Emperor's Children, likewise this pro and con is found in Death Guard and Thousand Sons aswell. In the end the difference will be minimal. 

The only thing Games Workshop could have done to make this transition a bit more easier to follow is to have less Keywords that can change from A to Z. However the design route they have chosen know still leads to maximum design space within the narrative setting. Eventhough some might not care for the narrative at all it still is the starting point of any design. Narrative changes for certain but GW is known for keeping their old narrative largely relevant, which is also why it has such a large fan base.

[the jeske]

well the problem is that they really are trying to make people not play what they want[legions for example], but some Chaos the Faction army, and this has only worked for imperials in tournament setting, non tournament players hated the quad chapter lists.I get it is a sells thing, I get that they want a WE player to buy something more then 5 boxs of zerkers and a Khârn [later a spawn+DP]. But how about doing this through you know making different zerkers units in a dual box. 

You can take Karanak and Flesh Hounds to deny something

yes, you can also take  Magnus. What does that have to do with someone wanting to playe a WE army .

[Plaguecaster]

^^^^^

Well it is closer to World Eaters who actually would summon the Khornate Daemons over Big Red especially since you don't need psykers anymore

[MoK]

^^^^^

Well it is closer to World Eaters who actually would summon the Khornate Daemons over Big Red especially since you don't need psykers anymore

 

Not everyone wants daemon scum in their Power Armour Legion.

[Plaguecaster]

^^^

Yes not everyone likes to be reminded they are slaves to Khornes will ;) but Karnak and flesh hounds actually would make sense in a World Eaters force and be a decent way of adding some fluffy anti psyker capabilities without wasting CPs, or using the horrendous thought of adding psykers or god forbid Tzeentch Daemons which is why it probably was suggested

[Bluthusten]

Can't imagine a fluffier thing than Karanak + Hounds in a World Eaters army...but okay

[Commissar K.]

I was saying using "FLUFF" as an excuse for justifying force organisation is stupid and has should have no impact on the game.

Which in itself shows your relatively new to the game and don't understand as to why 40K has so many fans.

 

As always everybody is entitled to their opinion, the prime reason as to why narrative should have effect on design has directly to do with the immersiveness of the game. Players like good stories and because of Games Workshop a good story is applied for all popular miniature games. Which I can also recommend you giving a try.

So far Im playing all kinds of miniature games, 40K, AoS, Warmachine, Malifaux, used to play WFB, Mordheim and will likely pick up many more games. The one thing that gets you hooked on a game is the miniatures, what keeps you into it is the stories of your army, further inspiring you to create a particular army or warband.

 

The fact of the matter is all players like their sub-army to be unique aswell, reflective of their character. Because of this Games Workshop clearly included army rules in the Index, these rules now have been clearified to be used with the Codex aswell. For this edition these arn't new rules, for this edition nobody asked for Berzerker Troops, they recieved it the moment the Index hit the shelves. All this update informs you is that all the Index rules are still in use.

 

Stating that this has to do with complaints of players in itself is reflective of not knowing why the game works the way it does. Understand that this edition revolves a lot around Keywords and those Keywords are directly related to narrative. In the narrative of World Eaters and Emperor's Children we have had for well over a decade now Berzerkers and Noise Marines have clearly been the main troops of these armies. If this edition would skip on it it would actually negate all the work writers and game designers have created in the last 30 years.This Troop rule is not new, it's actually very old. Because of that accepting it has become a norm not an oddity. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Commissar K.