Revelations: Of the Heavy Flamer Variety

[Aothaine]

So I was in the middle of reading "Talon of Horus" and there is a Khorne character in the book who uses a Heavy Bolter as his primary weapon. It is continuing to shatter my view and thoughts on what a unit would/wouldn't do. 

 

For a very long time I thought that running 'Pure' lists was the way to go. They sure look pretty on the board. But if you are aiming to win at a tournament you need to focus on what is going to let you win. The more I look into unit comps and their ability to do damage the more I am enjoying the feel of the Devastator squad below. Flamers, right now, are really powerful. Heavy Flamers even more so. Auto-hitting is something that people continue to under estimate to their disadvantage. So I looked into all the resources I had, except the Space Marine codex as I didn't have time before leaving for work today, and I think I'm correct in finding that only Blood Angels can field a Devastator squad with four heavy flamers. If this is the case the Spearhead detachment has to be the following.

 

Spearhead Detatchment (Blood Angels)

 

HQ - Librarian

HS - x3

Devastator Squad

Heavy Flamer x4

Cherub

Razorback + Twin Assault Cannon

 

Some things I want to point out here. Flamers are the best at taking down flyers and hordes. They are decent as throwing massive wounds on characters as well. 

 

The squads being so close to the enemy will be assaulted. If a unit makes it into melee with these squads they will have a tough time of handling it. So, I am thinking about including a detachment of Militarum Tempestus for the initial alpha strike.

[Panzer]

Khorne units with ranged weaponry isn't exactly new lol

 

And Blood Angels are still a Codex compliant chapter. Even while many people like to focus on Jump Pack melee units and Blood Angels in fluff tend to abandon their positions to rip&tear it doesn't mean they don't employ Devastators and other shooty units regularly as well.

Heavy Flamer Devastators is something the Blood Angel community was hoping for for quite some time even (they used to be excluded for Devastators as option). ^^

[NTaW]

I'm holding off making more heavy flamers until the Codex comes out personally, and proxying the couple I don't have until then.

 

Not as cost efficient but you can slap two HF Dev squads as well as a frag equipped Furioso in a Stormraven too.

[Aothaine]

Ohhhh really? Man I had thought this entire time that Heavy Flamers were an option for all devastators. I was surprised when I flipped through the index and didn't find the options available to anyone except Blood Angels.

 

Being that they also have access to the over-powered razorbacks (twin-ac) as tranports it is making them really viable in my opinion as a top tier list even without the usual Chainsword & Assault focus.  

 

Just need to figure out what would be best to pair that detachment up with, how much that detachment costs and then maybe just run 6 dev squads with an outrider detachment for a Black Templar terminator assault unit for the re-rolls to charge and the teleport homer.

 

Gonna need to go review some topics on Assault Terminators and see if that might be a decent option.

 

Even with just three of the dev squads that is 12d6 Heavy Flamer htis and 36 AC shots. Nothing to laugh at. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

The thing about heavy flamers or any flamer is the 8" (That I have observed) you simply move 8.01" away from the unit you want to assault and then assault it. This gives you a 44ish% success rate to charge and it makes the flamers worthless.

 

Plus a good general would assault something more important and just dakka the short range squad. This doubles for flyers, the flamers have to already be on the board or in a transport in which case a good general again is either going to kite those squads or out right deal with them.

[Aothaine]

The thing about heavy flamers or any flamer is the 8" (That I have observed) you simply move 8.01" away from the unit you want to assault and then assault it. This gives you a 44ish% success rate to charge and it makes the flamers worthless.

 

Plus a good general would assault something more important and just dakka the short range squad. This doubles for flyers, the flamers have to already be on the board or in a transport in which case a good general again is either going to kite those squads or out right deal with them.

 

This is why you move to within 1" of the unit that would be assaulting you. They won't be able to get out of the 8" range bubble. I'd have to test it out. Knowing your own weaknesses is important if you want to figure a way to prevent them from being weaknesses.

 

Also, if all your opponent has is flyers on the board you can pretty easily win the game now. You might not even have to worry about the flyers but if it comes down to it you can fire 36 str 6 -1 1 shots at them... you'll do enough damage to make it nearly useless. 

 

Please don't think that I am dismissing your points. The good general argument just goes both ways.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Oh yeah definitely, I haven't made it close enough with flamers because they die to fast in my meta.

 

Or I do and it's usually a 2 man squad by that point. I still run them though in tactical squads. I think Multi-meltas in drop pods are more important than a 4x heavy flamer squad.

[NTaW]

Oh yeah definitely, I haven't made it close enough with flamers because they die to fast in my meta.

 

Or I do and it's usually a 2 man squad by that point. I still run them though in tactical squads. I think Multi-meltas in drop pods are more important than a 4x heavy flamer squad.

Multi-meltas are a totally different tool, each has their use.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

Oh yeah definitely, I haven't made it close enough with flamers because they die to fast in my meta.

 

Or I do and it's usually a 2 man squad by that point. I still run them though in tactical squads. I think Multi-meltas in drop pods are more important than a 4x heavy flamer squad.

Multi-meltas are a totally different tool, each has their use.

Right. What I mean is, for me, devs are better with multi-meltas in drop pods rather than equipped with 4 heavy flamers in a transport.

[GrunTeufel]

I've been experimenting with 4 x Devs with 4 heavy flamers and a sarge with a combi flamer. Results are quite surprising. I have two ravens in my list and the amount of combined firepower they bring to the table is astounding. No target too tough for them. Conscript bubbles, flyers, demons with their invuls etc. And less then 150 pts for a squad of them. I am not going to build any yet since codex might change things but so far they have worked for me.

[Aothaine]

The squad I would run them with is detailed below and comes in at 249 points per squad

 

Devastator Squad

Sgt + Combi-Flamer

Marine x4 + Heavy Flamter

Razorback + Twin-AC

 

I think people are under-estimating how powerful one of these squads are in an alpha strike like. Mix these guys with militarum tempestus grav-chuting in with Meltas or Plasmas and we are talking some serious pain. Though if I went with the Flamer Devs I would most likely make the Tempestus Melta Marines. Gonna start pointing out this list now..

 

But I agree with GrunTeufel in that getting that many Heavy Flamers is kind of risky as I would be amazed if GW allowed all Heavy Flamer Dev squads when the codex releases. Still worth looking into though.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

How about a little fire scarecrow...

Kill them with FIAR Aothaine =)

 

I would drop the combi-flamer on the Sgt myself.

Get him a storm bolter and power weapon instead.

Then put a storm bolter on the razor too.

Spend the rest saved on ... stuff =)

 

I wouldn't go to crazy towards this unitl the codex hits prolly and we see what is what as has been said.

See also Sternguard.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Panzer]

 

The thing about heavy flamers or any flamer is the 8" (That I have observed) you simply move 8.01" away from the unit you want to assault and then assault it. This gives you a 44ish% success rate to charge and it makes the flamers worthless.

 

Plus a good general would assault something more important and just dakka the short range squad. This doubles for flyers, the flamers have to already be on the board or in a transport in which case a good general again is either going to kite those squads or out right deal with them.

 

This is why you move to within 1" of the unit that would be assaulting you. They won't be able to get out of the 8" range bubble. I'd have to test it out. Knowing your own weaknesses is important if you want to figure a way to prevent them from being weaknesses.

 

Also, if all your opponent has is flyers on the board you can pretty easily win the game now. You might not even have to worry about the flyers but if it comes down to it you can fire 36 str 6 -1 1 shots at them... you'll do enough damage to make it nearly useless. 

 

Please don't think that I am dismissing your points. The good general argument just goes both ways.

 

*within 2"

If you are within 1" of an enemy unit you are already in melee. ;)

[Remtek]

Been trying out 2 units of 5 maxed out on heavy flamers and a cherub in 3 games. They have been hit and miss, pretty good against infantry, but against veichles/monsters/flyers they usually just shave of 3-4 wounds then die to shooting. Personally i prefer mostly running a mix of lascannons/plasma and mid/long range dakka. Still a strong and a nice tool to have in our arsenal :) 

 

PS

Kromlech has some nice alternative heavy flamers 

http://remtek.be/40k/flamerdevs.png

[Charlo]

If the option stays in the codex, I'll certainly be building some squads up as I have a few nice heavy flamers left over from a previous DG project... 

 

Getting between 5 and 30 hits is tasty (with a Cherub) plus whatever the sarge has. Pop them in a Razorback with Twin Assault Cannons as people have said already for some pretty nasty Dakka.

 

Hose 'em down!

[durdle-durdle]

I guess I'm the only one who thinks flamers in this edition are overrated. A heavy flamer averages about 3 shots at 8" range. Know what has 3 shots at 36" range and the same profile? A heavy bolter, at nearly 2/3 the cost. You lose out so much in flexibility for a small amount of damage really close. Devestators aren't a close combat unit, they'll get butchered by anyone able to get in and make a 9" charge, and they only have a wound and 3+ save otherwise. Sure, they overwatch good, but know what's even better? Not having to over watch with your "not cc unit" because it's across the board. I'm just not a fan of feeding my enemy units that aren't meant to be close. By all means, take it in an aggressive tactical squad, a choppy company vet squad, etc, but I don't see any reason to take a good shooting unit and make it an "ok" close range shooting unit (who is bad at melee). At least assault flamer squads are meant for close combat and have the extra attack and mobility to reflect that. A heavy flamer devestator squad is very much a one-trick pony any player not brain-dead can avoid fairly easily. There's a reason I've never seen tau breacher teams on the table, and this is it.

[Panzer]

I guess I'm the only one who thinks flamers in this edition are overrated. A heavy flamer averages about 3 shots at 8" range. Know what has 3 shots at 36" range and the same profile? A heavy bolter, at nearly 2/3 the cost. You lose out so much in flexibility for a small amount of damage really close. Devestators aren't a close combat unit, they'll get butchered by anyone able to get in and make a 9" charge, and they only have a wound and 3+ save otherwise. Sure, they overwatch good, but know what's even better? Not having to over watch with your "not cc unit" because it's across the board. I'm just not a fan of feeding my enemy units that aren't meant to be close. By all means, take it in an aggressive tactical squad, a choppy company vet squad, etc, but I don't see any reason to take a good shooting unit and make it an "ok" close range shooting unit (who is bad at melee). At least assault flamer squads are meant for close combat and have the extra attack and mobility to reflect that. A heavy flamer devestator squad is very much a one-trick pony any player not brain-dead can avoid fairly easily. There's a reason I've never seen tau breacher teams on the table, and this is it.

Yes you probably are.

A Flamer doesn't have 3.5 shots at 8". It has 3.5 HITS at 8".

A Heavy Bolter has to roll to hit first so it will only have 2 hits at BS3+. 1.5 hits after it moved. 1 hit after it moved and the target has its own negative to-hit modifier.

In Overwatch the Heavy Bolter would have only 0.5 hits while the Flamer still has 3.5 hits. You say it's better to not have to overwatch? Yeah sounds nice in theory, too bad the opponent takes part in the game as well and first turn charges aren't that hard to pull off in 8th anymore and last I checked Space Marines have it a little bit harder to properly screen all their shooty units than, say Astra Militarum or CSM.

 

Yes it's a one-trick pony if you just place them infront of the opponents army without any support but they are quite capable of wrecking havoc on flanks and of splitting the opponents attention between them and your melee units (you moved your units so the opponent has multiple threads to deal with at the same time, right?).

Assault Squad with Jump Pack and Flamer have their purpose as well but they aren't nearly as hard hitting as a Heavy Flamer Devastator Squad if used right.

 

 

Also you never see T'au Breacher teams on the table? The :cuss ? It's one of the strongest units T'au have available at the moment (together with Flamer Crisis, Gun Drones and the obligatory Commander spam btw).

[durdle-durdle]

The heavy bolter probably won't need to move, as it has 36" range. While, yeah, an opponent might get close to you and charge you, the same can happen much more easily with your flamer unit that has to be 8" away, so that's not a real argument. The flamer will probably shoot once, while the heavy bolter will shoot several times through the game, probably.

 

And yes, I've never seen a tau player actually take a breacher team. That s6 ap-2 seems great, until you have to get within 5" to use and just get shot instead either before doing anything or after hitting one unit. Far easier and points efficient to just sit back and shoot several rounds with 30" range from strike teams, or gall in for close range and take crisis teams instead which a.) have better firepower and b.) have natural deep strike.

 

This relates back to blood angels in that I believe devestators are better used as a long-range shooting unit, as they always have been. If you want to get close to kill your enemy, go in where our strength (will probably be once we get a codex), and punch them. It's like making a good unit schizo, and making it unsure what to do. It wants to get close, but can't really survive getting that close.

[Panzer]

You haven't seen a lot of T'au then or it's just your local meta. Breacher in a Devilfish really are good. Of course you don't let them walk up to the enemy. Long range T'au lists aren't working that well anymore. The most efficient T'au units work within 18" of their target with some few exceptions like Longstrike or Missile Pod Commander.

Anyway, that's not the T'au topic. Feel free to open a thread in the T'au subforum or on AdvancedTauTactica if you want to continue this conversation. ;)

 

I'm not saying that Heavy Bolter are bad or even just worse than Heavy Flamer. Just that you are not doing Flamer weapons justice. They aren't nearly as bad as you seem to think.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I guess I'm the only one who thinks flamers in this edition are overrated. A heavy flamer averages about 3 shots at 8" range. Know what has 3 shots at 36" range and the same profile? A heavy bolter, at nearly 2/3 the cost. You lose out so much in flexibility for a small amount of damage really close. Devestators aren't a close combat unit, they'll get butchered by anyone able to get in and make a 9" charge, and they only have a wound and 3+ save otherwise. Sure, they overwatch good, but know what's even better? Not having to over watch with your "not cc unit" because it's across the board. I'm just not a fan of feeding my enemy units that aren't meant to be close. By all means, take it in an aggressive tactical squad, a choppy company vet squad, etc, but I don't see any reason to take a good shooting unit and make it an "ok" close range shooting unit (who is bad at melee). At least assault flamer squads are meant for close combat and have the extra attack and mobility to reflect that. A heavy flamer devestator squad is very much a one-trick pony any player not brain-dead can avoid fairly easily. There's a reason I've never seen tau breacher teams on the table, and this is it.

 

I feel the same. People act like 'auto hit' is some new amazing rule... but flamer/template weapons always auto-hit. There are differences, in both cases [7th ed vs 8th ed] you need your flamer guys up front in order to have the range - but at least now they won't be the first to die and intervening models don't impair them. Overwatch is potentially more damaging now, but you can also avoid any overwatch damage entirely by charging from greater than 8" or even better, from behind cover.

 

At least the HF has decent stats and 8" range, the total crap Hand Flamer is only 6"... I've found getting 1 HvyF into range is pretty reasonable, but getting even 2 or 3 flamer weapons into range, especially more than once a game, is just not realistic.

[Panzer]

 

I guess I'm the only one who thinks flamers in this edition are overrated. A heavy flamer averages about 3 shots at 8" range. Know what has 3 shots at 36" range and the same profile? A heavy bolter, at nearly 2/3 the cost. You lose out so much in flexibility for a small amount of damage really close. Devestators aren't a close combat unit, they'll get butchered by anyone able to get in and make a 9" charge, and they only have a wound and 3+ save otherwise. Sure, they overwatch good, but know what's even better? Not having to over watch with your "not cc unit" because it's across the board. I'm just not a fan of feeding my enemy units that aren't meant to be close. By all means, take it in an aggressive tactical squad, a choppy company vet squad, etc, but I don't see any reason to take a good shooting unit and make it an "ok" close range shooting unit (who is bad at melee). At least assault flamer squads are meant for close combat and have the extra attack and mobility to reflect that. A heavy flamer devestator squad is very much a one-trick pony any player not brain-dead can avoid fairly easily. There's a reason I've never seen tau breacher teams on the table, and this is it.

 

I feel the same. People act like 'auto hit' is some new amazing rule... but flamer/template weapons always auto-hit. There are differences, in both cases [7th ed vs 8th ed] you need your flamer guys up front in order to have the range - but at least now they won't be the first to die and intervening models don't impair them. Overwatch is potentially more damaging now, but you can also avoid any overwatch damage entirely by charging from greater than 8" or even better, from behind cover.

 

At least the HF has decent stats and 8" range, the total crap Hand Flamer is only 6"... I've found getting 1 HvyF into range is pretty reasonable, but getting even 2 or 3 flamer weapons into range, especially more than once a game, is just not realistic.

 

We don't act as if auto-hit is an amazing new rule tho. It's just that there are tons of to-hit modifier in the game now unlike in 7th. So Flamer didn't get better, but other weapons became worse (which in turn makes Flamer weapons better again obviously).

 

Also Heavy Flamer Devastators is something BA player always wanted to be able to play. Now we can. If you don't like it, don't do it....but it has its uses depending on your playstyle.

 

Getting more than 2-3 Flamer into range more than once per game is not realistic? I beg to differ. I do it frequently and it usually forces the enemy to either focus more of his attention towards them than he'd like to do or they slowly burn their way through his whole flank.

Forcing him to do a longer charge has its own merrit. If he fails his charge he'll be dead next round. Even easier if you moved your unit into a forest or into ruins (-2" charge range for the enemy).

[Xenith]

 

 

The thing about heavy flamers or any flamer is the 8" (That I have observed) you simply move 8.01" away from the unit you want to assault and then assault it. This gives you a 44ish% success rate to charge and it makes the flamers worthless.

 

Plus a good general would assault something more important and just dakka the short range squad. This doubles for flyers, the flamers have to already be on the board or in a transport in which case a good general again is either going to kite those squads or out right deal with them.

This is why you move to within 1" of the unit that would be assaulting you. They won't be able to get out of the 8" range bubble. I'd have to test it out. Knowing your own weaknesses is important if you want to figure a way to prevent them from being weaknesses.

 

Also, if all your opponent has is flyers on the board you can pretty easily win the game now. You might not even have to worry about the flyers but if it comes down to it you can fire 36 str 6 -1 1 shots at them... you'll do enough damage to make it nearly useless.

 

Please don't think that I am dismissing your points. The good general argument just goes both ways.

Move within 2" I think you mean. Moving within 1" means you're in combat.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

 

 

 

I guess I'm the only one who thinks flamers in this edition are overrated. A heavy flamer averages about 3 shots at 8" range. Know what has 3 shots at 36" range and the same profile? A heavy bolter, at nearly 2/3 the cost. You lose out so much in flexibility for a small amount of damage really close. Devestators aren't a close combat unit, they'll get butchered by anyone able to get in and make a 9" charge, and they only have a wound and 3+ save otherwise. Sure, they overwatch good, but know what's even better? Not having to over watch with your "not cc unit" because it's across the board. I'm just not a fan of feeding my enemy units that aren't meant to be close. By all means, take it in an aggressive tactical squad, a choppy company vet squad, etc, but I don't see any reason to take a good shooting unit and make it an "ok" close range shooting unit (who is bad at melee). At least assault flamer squads are meant for close combat and have the extra attack and mobility to reflect that. A heavy flamer devestator squad is very much a one-trick pony any player not brain-dead can avoid fairly easily. There's a reason I've never seen tau breacher teams on the table, and this is it.

I feel the same. People act like 'auto hit' is some new amazing rule... but flamer/template weapons always auto-hit. There are differences, in both cases [7th ed vs 8th ed] you need your flamer guys up front in order to have the range - but at least now they won't be the first to die and intervening models don't impair them. Overwatch is potentially more damaging now, but you can also avoid any overwatch damage entirely by charging from greater than 8" or even better, from behind cover.

 

At least the HF has decent stats and 8" range, the total crap Hand Flamer is only 6"... I've found getting 1 HvyF into range is pretty reasonable, but getting even 2 or 3 flamer weapons into range, especially more than once a game, is just not realistic.

We don't act as if auto-hit is an amazing new rule tho. It's just that there are tons of to-hit modifier in the game now unlike in 7th. So Flamer didn't get better, but other weapons became worse (which in turn makes Flamer weapons better again obviously).

 

Also Heavy Flamer Devastators is something BA player always wanted to be able to play. Now we can. If you don't like it, don't do it....but it has its uses depending on your playstyle.

 

Getting more than 2-3 Flamer into range more than once per game is not realistic? I beg to differ. I do it frequently and it usually forces the enemy to either focus more of his attention towards them than he'd like to do or they slowly burn their way through his whole flank.

Forcing him to do a longer charge has its own merrit. If he fails his charge he'll be dead next round. Even easier if you moved your unit into a forest or into ruins (-2" charge range for the enemy).

Other weapons got worse? ...cover is only -1 to hit, and flamer templates always ignored cover; intervening cover doesn't even exist anymore. Moving and firing Heavy Weapons was in previous editions either impossible, or only allowing Snap shots, now it's just a -1 to hit - that's WAY better. Even flyers are only -1 to hit IF they have that special rule... other weapons are WAY better and the Heavy Bolter is as good as its ever been.

 

As for getting 2-3 flamers into range consistently in a game, well you likely are a better player than I, but my group just charges in with something that doesn't care that much, like a Decimator Engine, or Carnifex, to eat overwatch, then the slow hoard munch begins... or just stay away from my devastators since I don't use drop-pods.

 

At least previously you got the wall of death regardless of how they assault, now it's quite easy to be sneaky and avoid it.

 

Now Rafen's 2HF on speeder tactic, that seems like a great way to use them.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[Panzer]

 

Other weapons got worse? ...cover is only -1 to hit, and flamer templates always ignored cover; intervening cover doesn't even exist anymore. Moving and firing Heavy Weapons was in previous editions either impossible, or only allowing Snap shots, now it's just a -1 to hit - that's WAY better. Even flyers are only -1 to hit IF they have that special rule... other weapons are WAY better and the Heavy Bolter is as good as its ever been.

 

As for getting 2-3 flamers into range consistently in a game, well you likely are a better player than I, but my group just charges in with something that doesn't care that much, like a Decimator Engine, or Carnifex, to eat overwatch, then the slow hoard munch begins... or just stay away from my devastators since I don't use drop-pods.

 

At least previously you got the wall of death regardless of how they assault, now it's quite easy to be sneaky and avoid it.

 

Now Rafen's 2HF on speeder tactic, that seems like a great way to use them.

 

Cover is not even -1 to-hit. Cover is +1 to saving throws. There are plenty of rules that previously were just a cover save but now are to-hit modifier and those stack. Ever played against Dark Eldar? It's not fun.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Oh right, good catch... even more to the point; other weapons are as good as they've ever been. Further fast armies like Dark Eldar are the least likely to let you get 4 heavy flamers in range, at least more than once.

 

If everything didn't have the ability to charge, like Raiders or Rhinos etc... then I'd probably find the HF more useful. My group doesn't play net/waac-lists but they're all very good players... this edition an assault-screen or dummy assault to eat overwatch, or just a longer range assault with a re-roll is totally negating your flamer; if the unit had "fly", which Devastators do not, then that'd be a different story.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard