Revelations: Of the Heavy Flamer Variety

[TheHarrower]

 

Re: Lucius:

 

Damn!

 

 

3x dual-HF speeders in a single unit (for 20" move) is steadily becoming the meta at my club.

 

People are indeed starting to catch on. I remember calling Heavy Flamers back when I saw the T'au crisis suits could have three of them each. They have fly/T5/W3/3+ save. They are crazy good. But, for now, Blood Angels can do similar things. The dual-HF speeders have amazing potential and are a bit sturdier than the crisis suits but cost a bit more. I should have caught onto this sooner.

 

 

Definitely going to try the 2 Heavy Flamers Speeders. I haven't used Flamers at all yet, but my opponents have and they seem fairly solid. For ultimate crazy, you can stick 2 Dev Squads in a Rhino with 8 Heavy Flamers and 2 Combi-Flamers. Not sure how well that would work, but that would certainly handle mob spam.

 

Do this. But put them in a Storm Raven. You then have two more spots for a priest, librarian and dreadnought.

 

Hmm. That is a boat load of points though.

 

Anyone good at mathhammer and can figure out the amount of unsaved wounds from 8 heavy flamers vs. a 10 man assault squad or death company equipped with chainswords against a unit that is T4 with a 3+ save?

[Aothaine]

 

 

Hmm. That is a boat load of points though.

 

Anyone good at mathhammer and can figure out the amount of unsaved wounds from 8 heavy flamers vs. a 10 man assault squad or death company equipped with chainswords against a unit that is T4 with a 3+ save?

 

 

The Devastators are not that expensive. Only 144-149 a squad depending on how gear our the sergeant. The expensive part is the delivery system. But getting a good one is important and the Storm Raven is amazing for what it costs. You get to deliver 8 heavy flamers, 4 combi-weapons(Sgt/Librarian/Priest), and a dreadnought with it's entire load out.

 

It is expensive all together but it is a powerful Alpha Strike list. It is not for everyone though.

[TheHarrower]

 

 

 

Hmm. That is a boat load of points though.

 

Anyone good at mathhammer and can figure out the amount of unsaved wounds from 8 heavy flamers vs. a 10 man assault squad or death company equipped with chainswords against a unit that is T4 with a 3+ save?

 

 

The Devastators are not that expensive. Only 144-149 a squad depending on how gear our the sergeant. The expensive part is the delivery system. But getting a good one is important and the Storm Raven is amazing for what it costs. You get to deliver 8 heavy flamers, 4 combi-weapons(Sgt/Librarian/Priest), and a dreadnought with it's entire load out.

 

It is expensive all together but it is a powerful Alpha Strike list. It is not for everyone though.

 

Right. Let me clarify. A boat load of points for a delivery system for Devs. Meph, Corbs, and an Assault Squad go in my Stormraven. I can't see kicking them out for Devs.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

The ASM squad can transport itself almost as fast for 3 points per model tho ...

and haul extra antitank weapons to crack those pesky chaos metal bawkses that may have crossed the start line.(damned Bezerkers...)

and screen a jump captain giving re-rolls to the stormraven.

and screen a jump librarian putting 4++ on the stormraven.

and other such fun things perhaps if you think diagonally.

 

Points do seem to go by the boatload in my head.

I am just full of ideas of things to spend them on it seems =)

 

I am thinking 8th edition is just smaller than 7th *nod. Maybe 2500 will become the new 2000.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Panzer]

 

 

Re: Lucius:

 

Damn!

 

 

3x dual-HF speeders in a single unit (for 20" move) is steadily becoming the meta at my club.

 

People are indeed starting to catch on. I remember calling Heavy Flamers back when I saw the T'au crisis suits could have three of them each. They have fly/T5/W3/3+ save. They are crazy good. But, for now, Blood Angels can do similar things. The dual-HF speeders have amazing potential and are a bit sturdier than the crisis suits but cost a bit more. I should have caught onto this sooner.

 

 

Definitely going to try the 2 Heavy Flamers Speeders. I haven't used Flamers at all yet, but my opponents have and they seem fairly solid. For ultimate crazy, you can stick 2 Dev Squads in a Rhino with 8 Heavy Flamers and 2 Combi-Flamers. Not sure how well that would work, but that would certainly handle mob spam.

 

Do this. But put them in a Storm Raven. You then have two more spots for a priest, librarian and dreadnought.

 

Hmm. That is a boat load of points though.

 

Anyone good at mathhammer and can figure out the amount of unsaved wounds from 8 heavy flamers vs. a 10 man assault squad or death company equipped with chainswords against a unit that is T4 with a 3+ save?

 

8 Heavy flamer vs T4 Sv3+ => 9.33 unsaved wounds

10 A.Marines with Chainsword => 2.33 unsaved wounds

10 DC with Chainsword => 3.33 unsaved wounds or 4.44 on the charge

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Re: Lucius:

 

Damn!

 

 

3x dual-HF speeders in a single unit (for 20" move) is steadily becoming the meta at my club.

People are indeed starting to catch on. I remember calling Heavy Flamers back when I saw the T'au crisis suits could have three of them each. They have fly/T5/W3/3+ save. They are crazy good. But, for now, Blood Angels can do similar things. The dual-HF speeders have amazing potential and are a bit sturdier than the crisis suits but cost a bit more. I should have caught onto this sooner.

 

Definitely going to try the 2 Heavy Flamers Speeders. I haven't used Flamers at all yet, but my opponents have and they seem fairly solid. For ultimate crazy, you can stick 2 Dev Squads in a Rhino with 8 Heavy Flamers and 2 Combi-Flamers. Not sure how well that would work, but that would certainly handle mob spam.

Do this. But put them in a Storm Raven. You then have two more spots for a priest, librarian and dreadnought.

Hmm. That is a boat load of points though.

 

Anyone good at mathhammer and can figure out the amount of unsaved wounds from 8 heavy flamers vs. a 10 man assault squad or death company equipped with chainswords against a unit that is T4 with a 3+ save?

8 Heavy flamer vs T4 Sv3+ => 9.33 unsaved wounds

10 A.Marines with Chainsword => 2.33 unsaved wounds

10 DC with Chainsword => 3.33 unsaved wounds or 4.44 on the charge

The difference being the HF realistically have 1 good round of shooting.

 

Using this math the Heavy Bolter (instead of HF) makes (4 or 8?) unsaved wounds, but at 36" range, and likely for several more turns, certainly with more split target options, for cheaper.

 

They also don't necessarily need a transport, where the HF teams must have them.

 

EDIT: This is precoffee early for me...

Edited August 31, 2017 by Chaplain Gunzhard

[Panzer]

 

 

 

 

Re: Lucius:

 

Damn!

 

 

3x dual-HF speeders in a single unit (for 20" move) is steadily becoming the meta at my club.

People are indeed starting to catch on. I remember calling Heavy Flamers back when I saw the T'au crisis suits could have three of them each. They have fly/T5/W3/3+ save. They are crazy good. But, for now, Blood Angels can do similar things. The dual-HF speeders have amazing potential and are a bit sturdier than the crisis suits but cost a bit more. I should have caught onto this sooner.

 

Definitely going to try the 2 Heavy Flamers Speeders. I haven't used Flamers at all yet, but my opponents have and they seem fairly solid. For ultimate crazy, you can stick 2 Dev Squads in a Rhino with 8 Heavy Flamers and 2 Combi-Flamers. Not sure how well that would work, but that would certainly handle mob spam.

Do this. But put them in a Storm Raven. You then have two more spots for a priest, librarian and dreadnought.

 

Hmm. That is a boat load of points though.

 

Anyone good at mathhammer and can figure out the amount of unsaved wounds from 8 heavy flamers vs. a 10 man assault squad or death company equipped with chainswords against a unit that is T4 with a 3+ save?

 

8 Heavy flamer vs T4 Sv3+ => 9.33 unsaved wounds

10 A.Marines with Chainsword => 2.33 unsaved wounds

10 DC with Chainsword => 3.33 unsaved wounds or 4.44 on the charge

 

Using this math the Heavy Bolter (instead of HF) makes 8 unsaved wounds, but at 36" range, and likely for several more turns, certainly with more split target options, for cheaper.

 

They also don't necessarily need a transport, where the HF teams must have them.

 

Hey I wasn't trying to prove anything. He asked, and I delivered. Range is obviously not factored in and so aren't possible to-hit modifier, losses before being able to hit/shoot, mobility and so on. Edited August 31, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Not even sure my math is right anyway. I'm only up this early to catch a bus lol.

[Indefragable]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Re: Lucius:

 

Damn!

 

 

3x dual-HF speeders in a single unit (for 20" move) is steadily becoming the meta at my club.

People are indeed starting to catch on. I remember calling Heavy Flamers back when I saw the T'au crisis suits could have three of them each. They have fly/T5/W3/3+ save. They are crazy good. But, for now, Blood Angels can do similar things. The dual-HF speeders have amazing potential and are a bit sturdier than the crisis suits but cost a bit more. I should have caught onto this sooner.

 

Definitely going to try the 2 Heavy Flamers Speeders. I haven't used Flamers at all yet, but my opponents have and they seem fairly solid. For ultimate crazy, you can stick 2 Dev Squads in a Rhino with 8 Heavy Flamers and 2 Combi-Flamers. Not sure how well that would work, but that would certainly handle mob spam.

Do this. But put them in a Storm Raven. You then have two more spots for a priest, librarian and dreadnought.

Hmm. That is a boat load of points though.

 

Anyone good at mathhammer and can figure out the amount of unsaved wounds from 8 heavy flamers vs. a 10 man assault squad or death company equipped with chainswords against a unit that is T4 with a 3+ save?

8 Heavy flamer vs T4 Sv3+ => 9.33 unsaved wounds

10 A.Marines with Chainsword => 2.33 unsaved wounds

10 DC with Chainsword => 3.33 unsaved wounds or 4.44 on the charge

Edited August 31, 2017 by Indefragable

[Are Verlo]

You should add shooting from the bolters when calculating the damage the DC does. 10 bolters at 12" or less inflicts 2.22222 wounds on targets with T4 and a 3+ save

[Panzer]

You should add shooting from the bolters when calculating the damage the DC does. 10 bolters at 12" or less inflicts 2.22222 wounds on targets with T4 and a 3+ save

As said there are a lot of things not factored in. Including the Bolter shots wouldn't make the comparison any more or less complete since there are also things lacking like Devastators not being able to shoot while being in melee but having that one additional flamer overwatch and the fact that not all DC and Devastators are even likely to get to the enemy before getting killed anyway and so on.

[TheHarrower]

 

 

 

 

 

Re: Lucius:

 

Damn!

 

 

3x dual-HF speeders in a single unit (for 20" move) is steadily becoming the meta at my club.

People are indeed starting to catch on. I remember calling Heavy Flamers back when I saw the T'au crisis suits could have three of them each. They have fly/T5/W3/3+ save. They are crazy good. But, for now, Blood Angels can do similar things. The dual-HF speeders have amazing potential and are a bit sturdier than the crisis suits but cost a bit more. I should have caught onto this sooner.

 

Definitely going to try the 2 Heavy Flamers Speeders. I haven't used Flamers at all yet, but my opponents have and they seem fairly solid. For ultimate crazy, you can stick 2 Dev Squads in a Rhino with 8 Heavy Flamers and 2 Combi-Flamers. Not sure how well that would work, but that would certainly handle mob spam.

Do this. But put them in a Storm Raven. You then have two more spots for a priest, librarian and dreadnought.

 

Hmm. That is a boat load of points though.

 

Anyone good at mathhammer and can figure out the amount of unsaved wounds from 8 heavy flamers vs. a 10 man assault squad or death company equipped with chainswords against a unit that is T4 with a 3+ save?

 

8 Heavy flamer vs T4 Sv3+ => 9.33 unsaved wounds

10 A.Marines with Chainsword => 2.33 unsaved wounds

10 DC with Chainsword => 3.33 unsaved wounds or 4.44 on the charge

 

Using this math the Heavy Bolter (instead of HF) makes 8 unsaved wounds, but at 36" range, and likely for several more turns, certainly with more split target options, for cheaper.

 

They also don't necessarily need a transport, where the HF teams must have them.

 

Hey I wasn't trying to prove anything. He asked, and I delivered. Range is obviously not factored in and so aren't possible to-hit modifier, losses before being able to hit/shoot, mobility and so on.

 

 

And I appreciate it. The reason why I asked for it this way is I was curious what was more effective coming out of a vehicle. I forgot about the DC and the Assault Marines being able to shoot before they charge.

Edited August 31, 2017 by TheHarrower

[Aothaine]

This is why you deliver them in a Storm Raven. Unless I am remember incorrectly you can drop units within 9" of an enemy unit with a Storm Raven right? If not that does put a snag in the Heavy Flamer list I was building. Doesn't stop it. But it puts a snag in it. Also, you will have other units that will draw the fire off your Heavy Flamers. Two Dreadnoughts, Two Storm Ravens + what ever else you decide to bring. You might even be able to add in three predators to this list.

 

When comparing units against each other the full squad bias in shooting and assault or just shoot should only be used as an estimate of what the unit can do. Because you don't know what it going to happen to the unit. People keep assuming that you are stopping the Heavy Flamer movement at 8" so other units can just charge them outside of that 8" range. The idea behind these squads is you get up-close and personal. They are backed up by a dreadnought, librarian and priest. Can they be wiped out? Sure! But taking 5 marines out is no easy task. Unless you are over-commiting to kill the unit. Then I have three other units of Heavy Flamers that can still walk around doing their thing. 

 

At this point you could even drop in 3-4 sniper scout squads, Blood Angels have access to sniper scouts right?, have them hold back objectives and pot-shot against characters or units that might be scary. Might even be able to fit in some Militarum Tempestus.

 

Edit: Another point on DC with bolters. They are good. Just designed for a different type of list.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Aothaine

[Are Verlo]

I'm a big fan of heavy flamers and I love my DC with swords and bolters. Guess I might be a "the glass is half-full not half-empty"-type.

In the right situations many units might be good and my views is ofc shaped by my meta with lots of horde armies and dense terrain

[TheHarrower]

 

This is why you deliver them in a Storm Raven. Unless I am remember incorrectly you can drop units within 9" of an enemy unit with a Storm Raven right? If not that does put a snag in the Heavy Flamer list I was building. Doesn't stop it. But it puts a snag in it. Also, you will have other units that will draw the fire off your Heavy Flamers. Two Dreadnoughts, Two Storm Ravens + what ever else you decide to bring. You might even be able to add in three predators to this list.

 

When comparing units against each other the full squad bias in shooting and assault or just shoot should only be used as an estimate of what the unit can do. Because you don't know what it going to happen to the unit. People keep assuming that you are stopping the Heavy Flamer movement at 8" so other units can just charge them outside of that 8" range. The idea behind these squads is you get up-close and personal. They are backed up by a dreadnought, librarian and priest. Can they be wiped out? Sure! But taking 5 marines out is no easy task. Unless you are over-commiting to kill the unit. Then I have three other units of Heavy Flamers that can still walk around doing their thing. 

 

At this point you could even drop in 3-4 sniper scout squads, Blood Angels have access to sniper scouts right?, have them hold back objectives and pot-shot against characters or units that might be scary. Might even be able to fit in some Militarum Tempestus.

 

Edit: Another point on DC with bolters. They are good. Just designed for a different type of list.

 

 

When you disembark from any vehicle, you move 3" plus your normal move so 9" total. Works from a Rhino too. I only use 1 Raven. I have 2 of them (1 DC 1 Red), but I don't really want to run 2 at 2,000. I'm not saying the Raven isn't good, I just don't want to stick all my eggs in one (or 2) baskets. Multiple threats are better IMO to create target priority issues. I like the idea of doing some sort of crazy flamer rush. I just don't want to base an entire list around it. I'm messing around with 3 Land Speeder with the dual flamers too. Not a fan of overly spammed units.

[Djangomatic82]

 

 Two Dreadnoughts, Two Storm Ravens + what ever else you decide to bring. You might even be able to add in three predators to this list.

 

Hmmmm....

1998 pt Vanguard Detachment

HQ- 2x Libby Dread with Melta

Flyer - 2x Storm Raven with Twin Multi Melta and Lascannon

Elites - 20 DC with Chainswords and Power Axes

Heavy Support - 3x Baal Predators 

 

that is actually kinda dirty.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Djangomatic82

[Aothaine]

 

Hmmmm....

 

1998 pt Vanguard Detachment

HQ- 2x Libby Dread with Melta

Flyer - 2x Storm Raven with Twin Multi Melta and Lascannon

Elites - 20 DC with Chainswords and Power Axes

Heavy Support - 3x Baal Predators 

 

that is actually kinda dirty.

 

 

I think you can only get 12 models in the Storm Ravens... are the 20DC broken into three units?

[Djangomatic82]

 

 

Hmmmm....

 

1998 pt Vanguard Detachment

HQ- 2x Libby Dread with Melta

Flyer - 2x Storm Raven with Twin Multi Melta and Lascannon

Elites - 20 DC with Chainswords and Power Axes

Heavy Support - 3x Baal Predators 

 

that is actually kinda dirty.

 

 

I think you can only get 12 models in the Storm Ravens... are the 20DC broken into three units?

 

4 units, 10 per Raven. 

[Indefragable]

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmmm....

 

 

 

1998 pt Vanguard Detachment

HQ- 2x Libby Dread with Melta

Flyer - 2x Storm Raven with Twin Multi Melta and Lascannon

Elites - 20 DC with Chainswords and Power Axes

Heavy Support - 3x Baal Predators

 

that is actually kinda dirty.

 

I think you can only get 12 models in the Storm Ravens... are the 20DC broken into three units?

4 units, 10 per Raven.

Don't know if I've ever run D.C. W/o jump packs. Took me a moment to figure that out.

 

It's a nice little list. Vulnerable to melta, but then again what isn't ("blobs, Indy"). I think the trick will be capitalizing on that threat saturation factor and maneuvering to get local superiority. I think in the right hands this list could work well, but it will have to be played very smart.

[Aothaine]

 

 

 

Hmmmm....

 

1998 pt Vanguard Detachment

HQ- 2x Libby Dread with Melta

Flyer - 2x Storm Raven with Twin Multi Melta and Lascannon

Elites - 20 DC with Chainswords and Power Axes

Heavy Support - 3x Baal Predators 

 

that is actually kinda dirty.

 

 

I think you can only get 12 models in the Storm Ravens... are the 20DC broken into three units?

 

4 units, 10 per Raven. 

 

 

Ahhh gotcha!

 

I think you would be better off with regular predators. Unless you are rocking the Baal's specifically for the Twin-AC. Can they take Las-cannons?

[Djangomatic82]

 

 

 

 

Hmmmm....

 

1998 pt Vanguard Detachment

HQ- 2x Libby Dread with Melta

Flyer - 2x Storm Raven with Twin Multi Melta and Lascannon

Elites - 20 DC with Chainswords and Power Axes

Heavy Support - 3x Baal Predators 

 

that is actually kinda dirty.

 

 

I think you can only get 12 models in the Storm Ravens... are the 20DC broken into three units?

 

4 units, 10 per Raven. 

 

 

Ahhh gotcha!

 

I think you would be better off with regular predators. Unless you are rocking the Baal's specifically for the Twin-AC. Can they take Las-cannons?

 

I think you'd have to take reg pred's for the Las-Cannons. The list wasnt really anything serious anyways, just a thought experiment in response to part of Aothaines comment above.