Sanctuary Nerf - Only effects Draigo and Index Libby with SS

[Gentlemanloser]

As there's still some confusion over this.

 

Sanctuary has been subtly changed. It used to give a +1 modifier to the saving throw result.

 

Exactly the same as Heed the Prognosticators and the Brotherhood Champions Blade Shield.

 

It has now been changed to increase the save value of a model with an invulnerable save by 1, to a maximum of 3++.

 

This is different to giving you a +1 to the dice roll, and works perfectly fine with both heed and blade shield.

 

There are only two units in our army effected by this change. Draigo and an index Librarian wirth a Storm Shield. Who already have a 3++ save, so gain nothing from sanctuary.

 

But you can still use Heed on them to give the a 2++ save.

 

The Brotherhood Champion, GMNDK and any other unit with a native 4++ can still reach a 2++ save using both Sanctuary and Heed (or in the BCs case a 2++ that also counters any extra -1 he might get from somewhere if he stacks Sanctuary, Heed and Blade Shield. Although that seems unnecessary).

 

Edit.

 

This nerf also effects anyone with a warding stave in CC.

 

As that gives a 3++ Save already, sanctuary would have no effect. But Heed still works totally fine with them.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Helycon]

Doesn't, since Heed is played at the start of the turn. You then have a 3++ and in the psychic phase, you can't stack Sanctuary.

[Beams]

Gentlemanloser is right, I think.

 

Heed the prognosisticators "...and add 1 to it's invulneravle saving throws until the start of your next turn"

 

Which, to me, reads as modifying the roll not the stat.

 

Sanctuary used to be phrased that way, but instead increases the value now.

[Gentlemanloser]

As beams said.

 

You use Heed at the start of your turn.

 

Heed, exactly like Blade Shield, gives you a +1 to the die you roll for your saving throw.

 

Sanctuary increases the invulnerable save (whatever is on the unit datasheet) by 1, to a max of 3++.

 

This is different. It is not a plus to the dice roll.

 

It changes the save value itself.

 

Sanctuary works fine with Heed. They are different mechanics.

 

 

Example.

 

You have a unit with an iron halo and 4++.

 

You use Heed. When he makes a saving throw, you roll and add 1 to the result.

 

3+ result on the die and you save.

 

Next you cast Sanctuary.

 

The save is now 3++

 

You roll and add 1 to the result from the active heed.

 

Roll 2+ on the die and you save.

 

 

Edit. Sanctuary was changed on purpose. As you can't limit a plus to a dice roll.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Helycon]

It's just playing with the words, not the outcome.

[Gentlemanloser]

No, it's a different rule. It works differently.

[Danarc]

Add 1 to its invulnerable saving throws isn't add 1 to the dice shot. Sanctuary doesn't work in case of already used heed on a 4++

[Gentlemanloser]

Save. A unit characteristic. Page 175

 

Invulnerable Save. A unit Characteristic.

Page 181.

 

 

 

Saving throw. A dice roll modified by AP. Page 181.

 

A saving throw roll is compated to the Save characteristic.

 

 

These are different things. And referenced as such in the rules.

 

'Saving throw' is a term used in the rules for the dice roll.

 

'Save' is the characteristic on the datasheet.

 

+1 to the saving throw *is* a dice modifier to the saving throw dice roll...

Edited August 22, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Beams]

If it was the same, why would they change the wording so drastically?

[Adeptus]

I think the real question is, did GW actually mean for the nerf to only affect models with native 3++ saves? That seems oddly specific.

 

When GW looked at the language of Heed the Prognosticars and saw "Add 1 to it's invlunerable save throws" did they take that to mean adding one to the saving throw characteristic, or to the dice roll?

 

I lean towards the former. And I'd certainly not try and give my NDKs a 2++ and then try and justify it by explaining this subtle but important difference in language. Having a subtle difference like this doesn't seem to fit the 'vibe' of 8th edition, and I don't believe it was GW's intent, and while you're all obviously free to do what you want in your games, I wouldn't be risking alienating my opponents just to get a better save on my toy soldiers.

[Gentlemanloser]

The wording of Sanctuary was specifically changed.

 

The same could have been done for Heed.

 

Or even a clause added that the plus one doesn't apply to units with a 3++ save.

 

But it wasn't. Edit. Can anyone explain how you limit a plus 1 to the dice roll to 3+ only? No other dice roll modifier is limited in any fashion.

 

But Sanctuary was specifically changed from 'saving throw' to 'save'.

 

Adeptus, there's no reason to think that a BC can't get a 2++. Or Draigo. Or anyone with a warding stave...

 

You can limit yourself if you wish, but that's a massive nerf your taking upon yourself. Edit. Would you stop warding staves getting a 2++ in CC with Heed prior to the FAQ? Why?

 

Beams, exactly.

 

It was changed on purpose.

 

To introduce the limit on the save characteristic.

 

You can't limit a modifier to a dice roll...

 

Edit. Added warding stave clarification to OP.

 

They are hit by the nerf to Sanctuary as well.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Adeptus]

The very fact that this thread exists means that when I tell my opponent that by spending a CP I have given my NDK a 2++ save, there's going to be a difference of opinion about it. And for the sake of winning or losing a game of toy soldiers (Who cares?) I'd rather not get into a murky rules debate. At all.

[Soder]

I dunno guys, I've been thinking about this a lot today. The stratagem says "add 1 to its invulnerable saving THROWS" doesn't that mean that you just add 1 to your saving throw dice result? Sanctuary adds 1 to your profile invul save. So a 4++ becomes a 3++. Then say you roll your invul save roll and you roll a 2. Normally you would fail because you need to roll a 3+ but then the stratagem changes the result to a 3 (add 1 to its invulnerable saving THROWS) therefore you pass your invul save!

The stratagem doesn't add +1 invul save profile, it adds 1 to your dice invul save result/throw.

Am I right? Or am I completely off base?

I'm so confused right now!... lol

Edited August 22, 2017 by Soder

[Adeptus]

I think you're right, but I also think that's a bit off, so I personally won't be stacking Heed and Sanctuary to get a 2++.

[Soder]

So I guess my actual question would be do you add 1 to your invulnerable saving throws before you roll your dice or afterwards? I always assumed it was afterwards

[Gentlemanloser]

And you won't stack heed with warding staves or Draigo or Blade shield either?

 

Seems an aweful lot of cutting your nose off to spite your face becuase you think a 2++ might annoy your opponents.

 

None of those scenarios should involve a rules debate.

 

And neither should the use of Sanctuary.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Adeptus]

And you won't stack heed with warding staves or Draigo or Blade shield either?

 

Seems an aweful lot of cutting your nose off to spite your face becuase you think a 2++ might annoy your opponents.

 

None of those scenarios should involve a rules debate.

 

And neither should the use of Sanctuary.

Heed hasn't been the subject of an FAQ. Sanctuary has. I will happily use Heed to get myself to a 2++, but will not stack it with Sanctuary to get the same effect. It's not the 2++ that I think will annoy people, it's using Sanctuary to get a 2++ after it was FAQ'ed to have a max of 3++.

 

EDIT: Having said that I've never used a Brotherhood Champion in anger, and haven't used a Warding Stave since 5th edition, so I doubt it's something that's likely to come up in my games.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Adeptus

[Gentlemanloser]

So how do you limit a modifier to a dice roll?

 

Its easy to explain Sactuary as a limit to the save characteristic.

 

Also the bonus from cover is also a plus 1 to the saving throw, not the save characteristic.

 

Edit. The rules also state that all modifiers are cummulative.

 

That's another sign that Sanctuary is no longer a modifier. But an adjustmemt to a charactetistic.

 

Edit. Hand wave away that cover doesn't apply to inv save, assume it does.

 

How do you work out the correct save for a unit with an iron halo or other 4++ in cover with sanctuary up?

 

What do they sucessfully save on?

Edited August 23, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Adeptus]

So how do you limit a modifier to a dice roll?

 

Its easy to explain Sactuary as a limit to the save characteristic.

 

Also the bonus from cover is also a plus 1 to the saving throw, not the save characteristic.

 

Edit. The rules also state that all modifiers are cummulative.

 

That's another sign that Sanctuary is no longer a modifier. But an adjustmemt to a charactetistic.

 

Edit. Hand wave away that cover doesn't apply to inv save, assume it does.

 

How do you work out the correct save for a unit with an iron halo or other 4++ in cover with sanctuary up?

 

What do they sucessfully save on?

IF cover stacked with Invuls, then I wouldn't use Sanctuary to get a 2++ in cover.

 

Basically, since the FAQ has dropped, then I wouldn't use Sanctuary at all if the end result was me getting a 2++, until the matter has been further addressed in another FAQ/Errata

[Gentlemanloser]

One reason i think Sanctuary was changed but nothing else was was actually for open/narative play.

 

Not an issue in Matched with rule of 1.

 

But in Narrative, All Draigos, BCs, Warding Staff users could all use Sanctuary for no real 'cost'.

 

Heed was left as is, becuase it costs CP and is limited in total use due to that.

 

No Sanctuary-ing unlimited units to a 2++ every turn. With only deny as a possible counter.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Beams]

That's actually a good point.

[Gentlemanloser]

I bet some one in the design team got spanked in cc by multiple paladin squads all with warding staves and Sanctuary up every turn. Lol.

 

Not happening again! Nerf! ;)

[Shagah]

One reason i think Sanctuary was changed but nothing else was was actually for open/narative play.

 

Not an issue in Matched with rule of 1.

 

But in Narrative, All Draigos, BCs, Warding Staff users could all use Sanctuary for no real 'cost'.

 

Heed was left as is, becuase it costs CP and is limited in total use due to that.

 

No Sanctuary-ing unlimited units to a 2++ every turn. With only deny as a possible counter.

 

This ^ I think is the reason.

Sure we can still get 2++ on stuff using Sanctuary but only a single model at a time in Matched play, and in Narrative it will eat through those CPs very quickly.

Where as before the nerf more than a single character at a time in matched play could have it, and in narrative, grief, heaps of characters could, at least in cc.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Shagah

[Gentlemanloser]

I've goofed a little!

 

Warding Staves don't give a 3++ in CC any more!

 

They either give a 5++ or +1 to the roll if you have an invulnerable save.

 

/doh!

[Adeptus]

True, but Sanctuary takes our normal TDA to a 4++, the Stave to a 3++, and Heed the Prognosticars to a 2++. In combat, anyway.