Interesting thought on WC Facebook regarding BTs

[Shea]

I know "interesting thought" and "Facebook" probably don't go together but...

 

Black Templars need some zeal.

 

Compared to their heretical counterparts (World Eaters), these guys are a joke. A full squad of Berzerkers (which are troops for them) crank out 344% of the damage of a full Crusader Squad, gain +1 attack on the charge (which makes it even worse) and can reroll charges for 10 points (supposedly the awesome defining characteristic of the BT) for 90 points more.

 

Suggestion:
Give Black Templars +1 attack on the charge as their chapter tactic, add "Crusader Seals" to the wargear for 10 points allowing for reroll of charges, allow Crusader Squads to take LRCs as DTs and (since they are supposedly THE close combat chapter) master crafted chainswords (user/-1/1).

 

Edit:

Warhammer 40,000 Some interesting feedback, there; we shall pass it on to the rules team for you!

Edited August 23, 2017 by Shea

[Othniel's Blade]

Do you have the direct link so we can add our zealous likes?

[Ciler]

Only downside I can see in this being that we would effectively lose reroll for charges on dreadnoughts.

[redmapa]

Now that the Emperor's Champion is super cheap it would be great to give him Vows like he used to have, +50pts for a +1A aura? I'd pay for that. Whatever the case I think we're in a good spot, not as brutal as WE or Orkz but I dont think we ever were so its not like we're missing something.

 

Vows are the key towards buffs!

[Lysere]

We may be zealous but we aren't berzerkers. Let chaos have their moment. We have land raider crusaders with which to cut them down, we have dreadnoughts that get what they have to pay for on infantry, and we have one of the strongest character killers.

 

If we get anything I'd expect to see vows added back in a future update or something similar. We don't need mountains of attack dice, we'll simply cut them down with ranged weapons before charging in for the kill.

 

That and berzerkers have to pay for that charge re roll, we don't.

[AlmightyWalrus]

At such a cheap cost for rerolls to charge distance it's an auto-take on any unit you ever want to fight in melee. It makes World Eaters blatantly superior to what are supposed to be their loyalist counterparts.

[Segismundo]

It sounds as "pre-made, standar" answer.

[Brother Christopher]

I suppose that changing Chapter Tactics and/or rules of specific units is too big of an intervention to happen in between Codexes. We'll know for sure when the Chapter Approved book is released.

 

What that person wrote on Facebook is entirely correct - the Chapter Tactics we got is underwhelming and does not do us justice, which becomes even more apparent when we take into account what Chaos got. It does not mean there's stopping to our zeal, though.

 

However, if this "interesting feedback" somehow turned into actual rules for our Chapter, I'd be so glad that I'd probably buy something Primaris - and this declaration means a lot!

[Firepower]

I wouldn't put any significance on that reply. I do agree that we, as an assault based Chapter, need a better leg up to compensate for being in a largely shooty dex. I do not agree that we should be on par exactly with WE and the like. Chaos has had crap rules for ages. I won't begrudge them for some superior rules that fit their fluff.

 

At any rate, don't expect changes to our rules any time soon.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Firepower

[Yodhrin]

I wouldn't put any significance on that reply. I do agree that we, as an assault based Chapter, need a better leg up to compensate for being in a largely shooty dex. I do not agree that we should be on par exactly with WE and the like. Chaos has had crap rules for ages. I won't begrudge them for some superior rules that fit their fluff.

 

At any rate, don't expect changes to our rules any time soon.

 

Hmm. I was actually going to reply that I'd prefer they didn't add something like this to avoid further pidgeon-hole'ing BT as "assault based". I'd always viewed the *choice* to switch weapons in crusader squads as being down to the greater individualism of BT marines, but coming back to the chapter after some time away sadly it seems like the choices people were making based on gameplay mechanics which made mixed loadout squads objectively inferior has bled back into the fluff. 8th is the first edition of 40K that actually seems to support playing Crusader squads to their original "squad of individual knights with their personal wargear and their retainers" theme, I'd rather they didn't introduce something that makes running them as anything other than pure assault inferior again.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Yodhrin

[Firepower]

I don't think it's much of a surprise I would like things to slant towards our original niche ;)

 

That said, BT chapter tactics already lean (weakly) towards assault. Making it better wouldn't make it any less nasty to run 5 man blasty squads, superior to Tacticals. As it stands the latter is still better than the former even with our CT. Making it better would just make both options good.

 

But again, don't expect any change regardless.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Firepower

[Gerhard]

Would be nice to see, however I assume it was more an answer out of politeness.

[Marshal Laeroth]

I won't complain about anything stated here.  I was going to make a post of my own, but this certainly pushed me over the edge so I did:

 

"I know this is unrelated to the current post, but I had a comment about state of competitive games. One of the strongest lists available is Smite-spam...and while this is strong, many armies have a reliable defense against it via psykers of their own. Except one: Black Templars. While I certainly appreciate the Stratagem that the army received, I feel it has a flaw...its only allowed to be used once per round due to stratagem rules. Against Smite-spam, that leaves the Black Templars largely defenseless. If its not too forward, might I suggest a slight change to the Stratagem to allow its use multiple times per phase? Even if it costs 2CP to activate.."

[Firepower]

I won't complain about anything stated here. 

 

Because you agree, or because it's not worth the migraine of arguing about Templar assault vs shooty fluff/strategy again?

 

From personal experience thus far, fighting off psyker spam with a stratagem that can only be used once and only works 50% of the time is, to say the least, an uphill battle.  Had a game against a guy with just 2 psyker genestealers with their little extra-spell pimple critters, and it wasn't pretty.  But at least I got to kill the sods in the end...well, one of them.  The other nuked the Champion off the board with mind bullets.  And what a lovely thing it is to have overwatch by your LRC disabled in front of a horde of charging bug men. 

 

Perhaps an escalating CP cost if used in the same phase.  1 CP for the first attempt, 2 for the second, etc.  But so far the tactic of 'run up and hit things' has suffered more from our mediocre ability to do said hitting of things than it has by way of mind bullet bonanzas.  

Edited August 23, 2017 by Firepower

[SydonianDragoon404]

I honestly don't know what you guys are griping about. I've gotten plenty of victories with my Templars, and I've successfully charged thanks to that re-roll multiple times. Our CT is fine, and our Stratagem is fluffy and can be extremely clutch. Our warlord trait and relic is meh, but all of this is WAY better than what we had in 6th and 7th edition. Does nobody here remember "must take casualties first before you get +1 attack" bull:cuss? I mean seriously people come on. 

[Marshal Laeroth]

 

I won't complain about anything stated here. 

 

Because you agree, or because it's not worth the migraine of arguing about Templar assault vs shooty fluff/strategy again?

 

From personal experience thus far, fighting off psyker spam with a stratagem that can only be used once and only works 50% of the time is, to say the least, an uphill battle.  Had a game against a guy with just 2 psyker genestealers with their little extra-spell pimple critters, and it wasn't pretty.  But at least I got to kill the sods in the end...well, one of them.  The other nuked the Champion off the board with mind bullets.  And what a lovely thing it is to have overwatch by your LRC disabled in front of a horde of charging bug men. 

 

Perhaps an escalating CP cost if used in the same phase.  1 CP for the first attempt, 2 for the second, etc.  But so far the tactic of 'run up and hit things' has suffered more from our mediocre ability to do said hitting of things than it has by way of mind bullet bonanzas.  

 

 

No, I agree that perhaps a bump in power isn't a bad thing.  However, I believe reliable psyker defense is the only way to be top tier competitive.  Even if it costs us 2CP, we need full phase defense.

 

Sydonian, how do you defend against this list without a change?  Honestly, because I'd like to know.  It can table 98% of all lists in two turns.

 

Belakor

Changling

4x Malefic Lords

12x units Horrors

12x units Exalted

2x Quad Mortar Battery

146 points Summoning

Edited August 23, 2017 by Marshal Laeroth

[Firepower]

Well, the previous CT was true to our roots, if nothing else.  I've had bad luck with the re-rolls and Abhor the Witch personally, but the dice I've used in 3 of my last 4 games objectively hated me on some deep and passionate level.

 

I actually like our relic, though.  Slap it on a biker Marshal and zip around buffing anyone that needs it with a nice big bubble.  The Warlord trait is rather circumstantial though.

 

I'm not interested in the "World Eaters are gods so why aren't we?" or "Ultramarines got all the best CT so why is ours not?" arguments.  I just feel that re-rolling charges and Assault Marines with no Jump Packs and mixed saves are insufficient to make a truly dangerous melee army out of a shooty dex.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Firepower

[AlmightyWalrus]

I get a morbid pleasure out of pointing out to people that folding Templars into Vanilla properly wasn't as easy as "just slap Characters, Crusader Squads and a Chapter Tactic in there and you're done!" It's kinda like the bunch of people at the start of every edition that claim that shooting is going to suck and how melee armies are going to stomp everything.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I honestly don't know what you guys are griping about. I've gotten plenty of victories with my Templars, and I've successfully charged thanks to that re-roll multiple times. Our CT is fine, and our Stratagem is fluffy and can be extremely clutch. Our warlord trait and relic is meh, but all of this is WAY better than what we had in 6th and 7th edition. Does nobody here remember "must take casualties first before you get +1 attack" bull:cuss? I mean seriously people come on. 

 

Tbh, you might not have been facing extremely top tier lists... if Arhiman and 2 Sorcerers walked up on your table that would just spam mind bullets everywhere and clean-up your characters or if your enemy decides to spam mortal wounds causing units, your going to have a definite uphill battle... the new learning curve for 8th is not that easy to adjust to and may cause problems for people, especially those who don't use Primaris in ranged engagements (and I still refuse to go buy their Bull ...)

 

The CT is only really just good if you have decent rolling capabilities, especially since they confirmed the rules in the FAQ to having to reroll both Dice if you want to reroll... if your dice is hot enough, then that's fine, but for people with ice-cold dice, then you can roll an 8 with a 9" charge and reroll and get snake eyes instead...

 

The issue with the strategem is that a concentrated psychic attack will kill you regardless... if a Vanilla army has a Librarian, then they can attempt to cancel 2-3 powers hurled at them, but if you run a Templar army, then you can only ever attempt to cancel 1 power if you have a command point... which are limited unlike Ultramarines, which can regenerate it like rabbits in a cage...

 

The main issue really becomes apparent with Templars if you're faced with a really competitively built army in a matched play environment... it's fun and games if it isn't but when the gloves are off, Templars will always be fighting the uphill battle, mainly due to how restrictive and low level our rules are...

 

By low level, our melee capabilities are weak... then again, considering how the Codex is mostly centralized around shooting, that's to be expected...

Our ranged capabilities are decent, but our CT is centralized on melee... which isn't even that good, is extremely circumstantial in comparison to other Chapters CT (reroll 1's to Hit and Wound, -1 BS against long range, regenerate Command Points...) and with circumstantial I meant that if you have a non-melee BT army and you're fighting against an army you don't want to be in melee in such as Tyranids or Slaanesh... then our CT becomes a waste...

and finally our strategem, although fluffy, is circumstantial and can be easily overcome by any enemy who brings more than 1 psyker in their army...

 

I mean, we can win, but it will always be a handicapped match against us... and we might as well run the generic items on the Codex and pretend that the CT doesn't exist... because currently, we are more Vanilla than the Ultramarines...

[Schlitzaf]

Honestly, guys if I had to be frank, I'd rather not get more "CC Stuff" for our army. Sense if I had to wager part of the reason we were rolled in the first place was because too many people saw as BA-Lite.

 

And instead I'd want to see GW double down on what has been established as our mechanical identity via the Crusader Squad, of having "Mixed Units' Enabling 'Hordes' that are points efficient.

 

Give us back our Crusader Biker Squads, let us take Neophytes in Primaris Units. We lost our Vows, but honestly our characters do a pretty good as a set of 'puesdo' vows. Atleast for me personally it's low on the fruit. But I tangented, I want to be good in melee combat.

 

However instead of asking for something like +1 Attack or NotChainAx. I first want to see our mechanical identity reestablished on the tabletop. Or cemented on the tabletop. Me personally, I am offended when someone says "aren't you a melee chapter?"

 

Because our army greatest strength is that we aren't regimented or pigheoned into anyone playstyle by looking at our iconic unit (Crusader Squads). What they should think is that "an attrition based army of mixed unit types".

 

Also I'll be honest it would fix a big pet peeve of mine, not being able to take Scout Bikers in my Biker Squads (it just looks weird to me).

[SydonianDragoon404]

 

I honestly don't know what you guys are griping about. I've gotten plenty of victories with my Templars, and I've successfully charged thanks to that re-roll multiple times. Our CT is fine, and our Stratagem is fluffy and can be extremely clutch. Our warlord trait and relic is meh, but all of this is WAY better than what we had in 6th and 7th edition. Does nobody here remember "must take casualties first before you get +1 attack" bull:cuss? I mean seriously people come on. 

 

Tbh, you might not have been facing extremely top tier lists... if Arhiman and 2 Sorcerers walked up on your table that would just spam mind bullets everywhere and clean-up your characters or if your enemy decides to spam mortal wounds causing units, your going to have a definite uphill battle... the new learning curve for 8th is not that easy to adjust to and may cause problems for people, especially those who don't use Primaris in ranged engagements (and I still refuse to go buy their Bull ...)

 

The CT is only really just good if you have decent rolling capabilities, especially since they confirmed the rules in the FAQ to having to reroll both Dice if you want to reroll... if your dice is hot enough, then that's fine, but for people with ice-cold dice, then you can roll an 8 with a 9" charge and reroll and get snake eyes instead...

 

The issue with the strategem is that a concentrated psychic attack will kill you regardless... if a Vanilla army has a Librarian, then they can attempt to cancel 2-3 powers hurled at them, but if you run a Templar army, then you can only ever attempt to cancel 1 power if you have a command point... which are limited unlike Ultramarines, which can regenerate it like rabbits in a cage...

 

The main issue really becomes apparent with Templars if you're faced with a really competitively built army in a matched play environment... it's fun and games if it isn't but when the gloves are off, Templars will always be fighting the uphill battle, mainly due to how restrictive and low level our rules are...

 

By low level, our melee capabilities are weak... then again, considering how the Codex is mostly centralized around shooting, that's to be expected...

Our ranged capabilities are decent, but our CT is centralized on melee... which isn't even that good, is extremely circumstantial in comparison to other Chapters CT (reroll 1's to Hit and Wound, -1 BS against long range, regenerate Command Points...) and with circumstantial I meant that if you have a non-melee BT army and you're fighting against an army you don't want to be in melee in such as Tyranids or Slaanesh... then our CT becomes a waste...

and finally our strategem, although fluffy, is circumstantial and can be easily overcome by any enemy who brings more than 1 psyker in their army...

 

I mean, we can win, but it will always be a handicapped match against us... and we might as well run the generic items on the Codex and pretend that the CT doesn't exist... because currently, we are more Vanilla than the Ultramarines...

 

 

Your argument has a fundamental flaw in that you are assuming that you will always play against a 100% min/maxed tournament level list. You have my most sincere apologies and/or condolences if your meta is actually like this, but luckily mine is not. There is no shortage of players in my city and plenty of them do not play tournaments or power game 100% of the time. I have another army for people like that. My local scene is such that if a player is running a tournament list and that's all he has, I can find another opponent and so can he. 

 

Black Templars is a hobby project of passion, fun, and theme for me. If your complaint were centered around how you don't feel like our rules match our theme from your perspective like Firepower, then hey that's just a different perspective on the theme and everyone has one of those to some extent so I don't have a problem with that. But your complaint is that we can't stack up to the likes of smitespam, or Ultramarines. You're judging our rules based on level of power, and tournament viability. I don't really think that is fair. If you are upset simply because fighting a tournament list as a Black Templar is an uphill battle, then you either need to see the Reclusiarch for an evaluation of your zeal, or to start painting blue and learning about the psychic phase. 

 

Again, if your scene is literally all tournament min/max ITC WAAC :cussBBQ then man I feel for you. But if its not, and you can just simply choose a different opponent and just play a game with your Templars then you really don't have much to complain about. If your scene really is like that, then maybe you can start working to change it. 

 

I'll repeat what I said earlier, the rules we have now are way cooler and better than what we had in 7th edition. Extra dice on a run move, 5+ to deny a psychic power if it targets a Templar unit (which most psychic powers used back then were blessings, not maledictions or witchfires), and take a casualty to gain an attack either from overwatch or the enemy shooting phase IMO was rather lame, because it was hardly ever useful. I can't tell you how many 3 or 4 inch charges I failed though. These days? Not so much! 

Edited August 24, 2017 by SydonianDragoon404

[Marshal Laeroth]

 

 

 

 

I honestly don't know what you guys are griping about. I've gotten plenty of victories with my Templars, and I've successfully charged thanks to that re-roll multiple times. Our CT is fine, and our Stratagem is fluffy and can be extremely clutch. Our warlord trait and relic is meh, but all of this is WAY better than what we had in 6th and 7th edition. Does nobody here remember "must take casualties first before you get +1 attack" bull:cuss? I mean seriously people come on.

Tbh, you might not have been facing extremely top tier lists... if Arhiman and 2 Sorcerers walked up on your table that would just spam mind bullets everywhere and clean-up your characters or if your enemy decides to spam mortal wounds causing units, your going to have a definite uphill battle... the new learning curve for 8th is not that easy to adjust to and may cause problems for people, especially those who don't use Primaris in ranged engagements (and I still refuse to go buy their Bull ...)

 

The CT is only really just good if you have decent rolling capabilities, especially since they confirmed the rules in the FAQ to having to reroll both Dice if you want to reroll... if your dice is hot enough, then that's fine, but for people with ice-cold dice, then you can roll an 8 with a 9" charge and reroll and get snake eyes instead...

 

The issue with the strategem is that a concentrated psychic attack will kill you regardless... if a Vanilla army has a Librarian, then they can attempt to cancel 2-3 powers hurled at them, but if you run a Templar army, then you can only ever attempt to cancel 1 power if you have a command point... which are limited unlike Ultramarines, which can regenerate it like rabbits in a cage...

 

The main issue really becomes apparent with Templars if you're faced with a really competitively built army in a matched play environment... it's fun and games if it isn't but when the gloves are off, Templars will always be fighting the uphill battle, mainly due to how restrictive and low level our rules are...

 

By low level, our melee capabilities are weak... then again, considering how the Codex is mostly centralized around shooting, that's to be expected...

Our ranged capabilities are decent, but our CT is centralized on melee... which isn't even that good, is extremely circumstantial in comparison to other Chapters CT (reroll 1's to Hit and Wound, -1 BS against long range, regenerate Command Points...) and with circumstantial I meant that if you have a non-melee BT army and you're fighting against an army you don't want to be in melee in such as Tyranids or Slaanesh... then our CT becomes a waste...

and finally our strategem, although fluffy, is circumstantial and can be easily overcome by any enemy who brings more than 1 psyker in their army...

 

I mean, we can win, but it will always be a handicapped match against us... and we might as well run the generic items on the Codex and pretend that the CT doesn't exist... because currently, we are more Vanilla than the Ultramarines...

Your argument has a fundamental flaw in that you are assuming that you will always play against a 100% min/maxed tournament level list. You have my most sincere apologies and/or condolences if your meta is actually like this, but luckily mine is not. There is no shortage of players in my city and plenty of them do not play tournaments or power game 100% of the time. I have another army for people like that. My local scene is such that if a player is running a tournament list and that's all he has, I can find another opponent and so can he.

 

Black Templars is a hobby project of passion, fun, and theme for me. If your complaint were centered around how you don't feel like our rules match our theme from your perspective like Firepower, then hey that's just a different perspective on the theme and everyone has one of those to some extent so I don't have a problem with that. But your complaint is that we can't stack up to the likes of smitespam, or Ultramarines. You're judging our rules based on level of power, and tournament viability. I don't really think that is fair. If you are upset simply because fighting a tournament list as a Black Templar is an uphill battle, then you either need to see the Reclusiarch for an evaluation of your zeal, or to start painting blue and learning about the psychic phase.

 

Again, if your scene is literally all tournament min/max ITC WAAC :cussBBQ then man I feel for you. But if its not, and you can just simply choose a different opponent and just play a game with your Templars then you really don't have much to complain about. If your scene really is like that, then maybe you can start working to change it.

 

I'll repeat what I said earlier, the rules we have now are way cooler and better than what we had in 7th edition. Extra dice on a run move, 5+ to deny a psychic power if it targets a Templar unit (which most psychic powers used back then were blessings, not maledictions or witchfires), and take a casualty to gain an attack either from overwatch or the enemy shooting phase IMO was rather lame, because it was hardly ever useful. I can't tell you how many 3 or 4 inch charges I failed though. These days? Not so much!

The thing is...I play and I know how to win games. Since the beginning of 8th, I have had great success with my BT lists. But I am a tournament player. I want to go into a game where each player smashes each other to bits...but I want to win. I want to beat those hard lists...that is what I find enjoyable in this game. And I intend to do it with the BT. Right now, however, the nature of the tournament meta kind of prevents it due to smite-spam.

[Marshal Arthur]

Personally as much I like the Crusader Helm I really think we should've gotten the Ultramarine relic instead. Why does a chapter with access to Librarians and a named Librarian character need yet another way to deny the witch. It wouldn't solve everything but it would give us a little more psyker defense and encourage us to keep our HQs near the frontlines.

Alternatively a rule on one for smite could be nice. Obviously I'm a little biased using a non-psyker army but the rules of one in AoS crippled my beloved Lizardmen so I'd consider it justice. As for close combat boosts I do agree it'd be nice. I tried running a combat heavy list against my friend's deathguard and their sheer resilience allowed them to tank my attacks while the plaguecaster slowly smited my entire squad. The chainswords did nothing and the power weapons were only marginally more effective. I think vows would be a great way to add fluff and buffs for our close combat abilities without going overboard or requiring a whole new codex. That and there's part of me that really wants chainswords to do more than just add an attack. They pretty did that in the last addition anyways and it's sad that such an iconic weapon is the equivalent of getting a second punch.

Edited August 24, 2017 by templar36

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

 

I honestly don't know what you guys are griping about. I've gotten plenty of victories with my Templars, and I've successfully charged thanks to that re-roll multiple times. Our CT is fine, and our Stratagem is fluffy and can be extremely clutch. Our warlord trait and relic is meh, but all of this is WAY better than what we had in 6th and 7th edition. Does nobody here remember "must take casualties first before you get +1 attack" bull:cuss? I mean seriously people come on. 

 

Tbh, you might not have been facing extremely top tier lists... if Arhiman and 2 Sorcerers walked up on your table that would just spam mind bullets everywhere and clean-up your characters or if your enemy decides to spam mortal wounds causing units, your going to have a definite uphill battle... the new learning curve for 8th is not that easy to adjust to and may cause problems for people, especially those who don't use Primaris in ranged engagements (and I still refuse to go buy their Bull ...)

 

The CT is only really just good if you have decent rolling capabilities, especially since they confirmed the rules in the FAQ to having to reroll both Dice if you want to reroll... if your dice is hot enough, then that's fine, but for people with ice-cold dice, then you can roll an 8 with a 9" charge and reroll and get snake eyes instead...

 

The issue with the strategem is that a concentrated psychic attack will kill you regardless... if a Vanilla army has a Librarian, then they can attempt to cancel 2-3 powers hurled at them, but if you run a Templar army, then you can only ever attempt to cancel 1 power if you have a command point... which are limited unlike Ultramarines, which can regenerate it like rabbits in a cage...

 

The main issue really becomes apparent with Templars if you're faced with a really competitively built army in a matched play environment... it's fun and games if it isn't but when the gloves are off, Templars will always be fighting the uphill battle, mainly due to how restrictive and low level our rules are...

 

By low level, our melee capabilities are weak... then again, considering how the Codex is mostly centralized around shooting, that's to be expected...

Our ranged capabilities are decent, but our CT is centralized on melee... which isn't even that good, is extremely circumstantial in comparison to other Chapters CT (reroll 1's to Hit and Wound, -1 BS against long range, regenerate Command Points...) and with circumstantial I meant that if you have a non-melee BT army and you're fighting against an army you don't want to be in melee in such as Tyranids or Slaanesh... then our CT becomes a waste...

and finally our strategem, although fluffy, is circumstantial and can be easily overcome by any enemy who brings more than 1 psyker in their army...

 

I mean, we can win, but it will always be a handicapped match against us... and we might as well run the generic items on the Codex and pretend that the CT doesn't exist... because currently, we are more Vanilla than the Ultramarines...

 

 

Your argument has a fundamental flaw in that you are assuming that you will always play against a 100% min/maxed tournament level list. You have my most sincere apologies and/or condolences if your meta is actually like this, but luckily mine is not. There is no shortage of players in my city and plenty of them do not play tournaments or power game 100% of the time. I have another army for people like that. My local scene is such that if a player is running a tournament list and that's all he has, I can find another opponent and so can he. 

 

Black Templars is a hobby project of passion, fun, and theme for me. If your complaint were centered around how you don't feel like our rules match our theme from your perspective like Firepower, then hey that's just a different perspective on the theme and everyone has one of those to some extent so I don't have a problem with that. But your complaint is that we can't stack up to the likes of smitespam, or Ultramarines. You're judging our rules based on level of power, and tournament viability. I don't really think that is fair. If you are upset simply because fighting a tournament list as a Black Templar is an uphill battle, then you either need to see the Reclusiarch for an evaluation of your zeal, or to start painting blue and learning about the psychic phase. 

 

Again, if your scene is literally all tournament min/max ITC WAAC :cussBBQ then man I feel for you. But if its not, and you can just simply choose a different opponent and just play a game with your Templars then you really don't have much to complain about. If your scene really is like that, then maybe you can start working to change it. 

 

I'll repeat what I said earlier, the rules we have now are way cooler and better than what we had in 7th edition. Extra dice on a run move, 5+ to deny a psychic power if it targets a Templar unit (which most psychic powers used back then were blessings, not maledictions or witchfires), and take a casualty to gain an attack either from overwatch or the enemy shooting phase IMO was rather lame, because it was hardly ever useful. I can't tell you how many 3 or 4 inch charges I failed though. These days? Not so much! 

 

 

That's not really my gripe or a reason for me to be upset, the foundation of my issue is that GW has promised a fully balanced 8th ed gameplay... especially for tournament plays that should disallow you from running death stars and similar... but a psyker heavy army, fighting against a BT force will always be an uphill battle throwing that entire promise of "balance" out the window... so if we somehow get an increase in psyker defense against a psyker heavy tournament level army, then maybe we'd see that balance yet again...

 

I'm not raining on your parade in regards to BT that should be fluffy, fun and thematic... in fact I'm all for it... I want a BT force that is fun, true to form and thematic... but I also want them to be VERY competitive... 8th edition was thrown at us with the promise of a balanced gameplay against ALL type of armies... where victory or defeat is laid out with how you've positioned your army, your luck of the dice and the units you've brought... but playing as BT would actually pigeon-hole us into playing as a non-melee melee army, with good psychic defense against single psykers, but weak against tourney level psyker armies... if BT would be weak against a tournament level army, then what is the point of having them in a tournament setting? might as well not let them go on hardcore tournament events...

 

I'm not saying BT should be better off back then than what they are now (although the vows were nice) I;m saying that BT lost the potential to be great like the other Traits/Relics out there... once more we took the short end of the stick among a group of Chapters that all took decent lengths of said stick... what I'm saying is that once again... we didn't gt what we deserve... and like always, we never get what we deserve... that's why it is always an uphill battle... because we never get what we should have...

[Brother Talarian]

They seem to be pretty quick to responding to rule changes/updates/balancing...

 

Perhaps in a few months time they'll tone down smite. Make it harder to cast, do less dmg, limit the amount of times it can be used, etc.