Interesting thought on WC Facebook regarding BTs

[Brother Christopher]

Anyway, the only really viable thing I see right now would be to ally with Psyker defense. Which means something like Grey Knights. Goes slightly against the Fluff though but hey... if we're going to be killing heretics together....

 

You see, to me what you said ties well with what Roujakis said. I believe that the problem some of us have with the current rules is not necessarily that the rules are not top-tier (to me, someone who started in 5th, they never where, but I enjoyed the game back then), but that that our rules are not 'balanced'. What I intend to mean is that our army has drawbacks (and this is something good, all armies should have those) but there is insufficient counterweigh to those drawbacks within our rule set. This becomes mostly apparent with psychers. Sure, if we take on a broader vista, we can make up for the drawbacks, like Gerhard suggested, but this means allying to psychers or abominations from outside of our Chapter, which is not something I'd want (especially when we factor in that the more (anti)psycher allies we choose, the fewer Black Templars we are able to field). Honestly, the most of the issues I have with 40K and its 'balance' is tied to the psychic phase, but this is not something that is going to change soon (or ever).

[Ciler]

The balance you're looking for cannot, in my opinion, be achieved.

 

Psykers have been key in 7th ed and seem to also be quite important in 8th (although in a different manner). By choosing to forego psykers entirely, we simply cannot interact with a psyker heavy meta, unless we have a character (or characters) that would do exactly what a psyker does without being psykers themselves. The nearest I could think of is inquisitors with iron will, but those can only deny powers aimed at them (unlike librarians that can deny everything in 24") and screw up your detachment. And even then, say we get a BT character that can deny everything in 24", we're still "behind" because we have nothing to make up for the buffs psychic powers provide (when not denied).

 

I mean, I'm opened to suggestions to fix this, but I don't see any, short of giving us a character that will for all intends and purpose do exactly what a librarian does...

[Aegir_Einarsson]

SoS, inquisitor greyfax, and hector rex from FW.

Also assiasins can give some anti psyker abilities.

 

Including grwyfax And hector rex (And one more imperium hq) you can make suprema command detachment.

 

Both inquisitors gives us 5 deny attempts a turn with hector 12" null rod included. It is something worth conaidering, quite fluffy, (for example in gronie crusade it is said that we make rides against deamons side by side with inquisition).

Both inquisitors costs a out 200 points total And due to special inquisition rules They can be dropped in any transport So They don't ćpuny as separate stop during deployment.

Low costs serious anti psyker spam.

In addition they have some Nice buff aginst paykers with re-rolls.

 

Good choince imo, that don't bramkę fluff entirely

[Ciler]

Sorry, but that's exaclty what I call "not having a librarian but replacing it by something strictly equivalent". And in the case of Hector Rex, it's not even equivalent, the dude is a measly 30% cheaper than an equivalent SM librarian.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Right, but using them you don't ruin the fluff thing, If its cheaper So be it, better to us. Ok it is strictly equivalent but sadly we don't have any other non psyker unit that can deny. Unless you play blue ones with special ultramarines relic (OP in my opinion). You can take 4 SoS units And culexus for potrntially -6 to psychic tests.

 

In one word: unless we have something non-psyhic special thing to deny inquisitors are best fluff And game point of view choice

[Gerhard]

Agreed, I've been puzzeling with an Allied patrol detachment of Grey Knights. Replacing what we lack in terms of Psyker power is the only way I see us dealing with spam-lists against something as rediculous as the summon-spam.

 

Fun side of it is that with Black Templar you have access to Primaris, and with Grey Knights you don't so Primaris from the Black Templar, and anti-Psyker from the Grey Knights combined in one...

 

Primaris and Psykers all in one sentence.... feeling like a Heretic here.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

But correct me If I'm wrony but GK are a bit expensive point's cost for just anti psyker point of view.

What do you use for This patrol detachment?

Edited August 25, 2017 by Aegir_Einarsson

[Marshal_Roujakis]

The easiest and best way to fix this, imho, is not just to fix this by ourselves but petition those from other groups as well that lack psyker capabilities such as the Tau or the Necrons to call on GWs Facebook page to have an assistance in regards to psykers and psyker spam-lists... or at the most to fix Smite so it doesn't seem overpowered when used against non-psyker armies...

 

this would be the best path to follow as a competitive player as this rallies numbers and is most likely to see results... it has been done before due to a Flyer heavy list spamming Matched games and Tournaments and w/ GW FAQ out Flyers to not count towards units on the table in regards to being wiped out... I guess they could do something similar to psyker units by either increasing points cost of units with psychic capabilities, or changing the Deny the Witch rule or the BT strategem or maybe just changing the way casting is done in general to balance out psykers for matched games... I mean... in this edition, democracy rules GW...

[Aegir_Einarsson]

I think necrons arent affected that much because of renimation protocol And on 5+\4+ back to game And large units od 20 warriors... , living metal And So on. Tau have cheap drones tonujące some ablative wounds on them.

The thing is that we have quite expensive army And No such options that i've mentionet above.

[Gerhard]

But correct me If I'm wrony but GK are a bit expensive point's cost for just anti psyker point of view.

What do you use for This patrol detachment?

 

 

 

Honestly, not sure yet. I'm just looking into it as I said. I've been interested in starting a small Grey Knights army anyway, aside from my main Templar force. Thus, focusing on a small patrol detachment to start and understand their gameplay is interesting for me with that longer term goal in mind. 

 

The first thing coming to mind was a Strike Squad, a Paladin Squad and a Grand Master in a Dreadknight. But as I said... looking into it and just looking at the options really. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Gerhard

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I think necrons arent affected that much because of renimation protocol And on 5+\4+ back to game And large units od 20 warriors... , living metal And So on. Tau have cheap drones tonujące some ablative wounds on them.

The thing is that we have quite expensive army And No such options that i've mentionet above.

 

So... if we forgo more exquisite weapons and rely more heavily in weight of dice and buffing our troops w/ Apothecaries, Ancients and possibly Lieutenants... we can have 20-men large squads with Neophytes for ablative wounds... the only one unit I can think of that has something similar to living metal would be Venerable Dreadnoughts as well...

 

So... spam them and we have something akin to Tau and Necrons to ignore psykers? We don't really have reanimation protocol, unless you count the Apothecary revives towards that... but the Banner should provide the ability to shoot or attack upon death, and technically we are the only Chapter in the book that can spam 20 Marine squads... so would this be a viable way instead of playing min/max squads? Run black tides?

[Daemonifugue]

With regards to a lot of this thread and the weaknesses of our CT and fluffy options, all I want to add is Keyword: Imperium. There's nothing as fluffy as an Imperial crusade - plug those holes in our battleplan with our Imperial brethren. Assassins/Sisters of Silence for psykers, guardsmen as meatshields for smite-soaking, plenty of options out there. Not every army is designed to be well-rounded, but we have one big Imperial advantage - a tool for everything is there if we look hard enough.

[Ebon Hand]

It's perhaps viable, but probably won't do well overall in a competitive environment (need transports). You might counter psykers but what about other army types?

 

In a competitive environment you need to be able to counter a Flyer army (stormravens), Psykers (with brimstones and Magnus), Gunline Guard with 100+ conscripts (also has psykers), Guilliman Gunline, Hordes, super-heavy armies such as Knights, Assassin armies, Ravager spam, so on and so forth. It will require testing to beat them with Black Templars not just theory crafting. Petitioning GW for stronger rules is an exercise in futility that could be better spent honing your skills. We aren't even near the worst army right now anyway.

 

I don't ever recall GW promising that the game would be balanced at a competitive level, but that it would be better balanced in general, which it is. However it will never be balanced to the point where every army is competitive without giving everyone basically the same stuff. That is good in my opinion because I don't want to play chess or checkers, if I wanted that I could play other games.

 

Despite that, it looks like the competitive scene is relatively diverse now which is pretty cool. It's definitely not the Eldar or Grey Knight dominance we have seen in the past.

[Schlitzaf]

So I just wanted to say something, I started this army over a decade ago it feels now. And I was actually gonna be a Salamander player first (I thought the Green was cool). Then because I didn't want to be in C:SM I choose Black Templar (the 6 year mentality of wanting to be a special snowflake). Additionally I was and am enthralled by Medieval Europe, my Fantasy army being Bretonnia is another representation of that.

 

I stayed, for the rules. The special characters beside being "Super Awesome Lead Bro", (well Grimaldus rules have a special place in my heart), I cared more about my characters. A now shutdown Star Wars MMO I played opened its scroll with "the greatest story ever told, yours".

 

The reason I stuck with Templars through thick and thin, because I loved the army very ad hoc feel. We didn't have the regimented look for Codex Marine armies. Additonally we don't look for the cowards way of witchery or long range warfare instead we want to see the enemy perish by our own hands.

 

And the BT Army core edicts, "Never Surrender", and "We Will Endure". Other melee forces had a bonus on charge we always had our melee bonus. Other Marines could retreat from battle. We? We meet the enemy head on and refuse to take one step back.

 

Was it the models? The characters? The rules? Maybe? I was drawn by the imagery and models. The characters were indifferent. The rules? Examplifing what I wanted, they were why I stayed. I know I have said this in other places, but Grimaldus refusal to run away or surrender in Helsreach what it means to be a Templar.

 

8th I can finally recreate the playstyle with Rites of War and Cenobytes. Is it wrong? That the core reason I choose to continue play this army, because of what our rules were, being the exemplification to me of a band of brothers, and a group of 'heroes' whom never surrender and will endure until the end of time.

 

Bonded by comradie instead of enforced organization of other chapters. And whose core playstyle reflect a never retreat, a never surrender mindset. I won't abandon this chapter, because this is the chapter I choose, and I still love it. The rules have changed but the army still retains that never surrender playstyle I came to love.

 

Pardon the tangent

[Gerhard]

Please don't change this topic in another "I won't stop playing Templar because..." discussion.

 

The gesture is appreciated but the discussion as it is now is about how to deal with psyker spam so let's keep it constructive and on that topic. Before we know we'll also be debating Primaris yay or nay again as well, and personally I'd like to discuss how to counter this type of list properly.

 

Personally I feel spamming a massive amount of bodies would work if they could be revived, but since we don't have reanimation protocol as already mentioned and only apothecaries, I doubt that would work. So if taking psykers as allies is a problem fluff-wise, then perhaps an allied detachment of cheap bodies to soak? Imperial Guard? I'm going to do some serious research into an allied detachment of Grey Knights.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Gerhard

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Please don't change this topic in another "I won't stop playing Templar because..." discussion.

 

The gesture is appreciated but the discussion as it is now is about how to deal with psyker spam so let's keep it constructive and on that topic. Before we know we'll also be debating Primaris yay or nay again as well, and personally I'd like to discuss how to counter this type of list properly.

 

Personally I feel spamming a massive amount of bodies would work if they could be revived, but since we don't have reanimation protocol as already mentioned and only apothecaries, I doubt that would work. So if taking psykers as allies is a problem fluff-wise, then perhaps an allied detachment of cheap bodies to soak? Imperial Guard? I'm going to do some serious research into an allied detachment of Grey Knights.

 

Should it just be a discussion in regards to facing psyker-heavy armies in general or a more general approach into facing much more competitive armies and countering it in a more Imperial/Templar fashion?

 

Obviously we wouldn't be able to counter everything that would be thrown at us... the game system is more akin to Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock with 2D6 thrown in the mix to substantiate the randomness of war, but getting ROFL-stomped turn 2 by a psyker heavy list while being able to stand toe-to-toe or counter most other more balanced armies just speaks volumes about lack of balance in regards to the actual game system or specific army type instead of difference in player skill levels...

 

Also, should we also discuss certain aspects of our rules in general to exploit or use from being lackluster to something greater? Like our mediocre Chapter Tactic... maybe there's a way to make it far better than what it is, or is that rule just really hopeless?

[Firepower]

 

Also, should we also discuss certain aspects of our rules in general to exploit or use from being lackluster to something greater? Like our mediocre Chapter Tactic... maybe there's a way to make it far better than what it is, or is that rule just really hopeless?

 

 

There's no real building anything around our CT.  It is what it is.  It meagerly assists a single approach, and not in any way that would change how you already go about it.  The most dramatic effect I can think of is encouraging assault from deep strike, so perhaps a Pod assault army, but with my experience I would say that's a big pile of fool's gold.  The odds don't change so dramatically in our favor that you want to build the army around it.  

 

It's not useless, it just doesn't change much of anything.

[Gerhard]

I've been having luck with first turn deep strikes so far with Reiver Squads and Vanguard decked out with Plasma Pistols. Truth be told about the CT though: if I play a game with such an army, I have to succeed the turn one charge. If not, trying to win is a lot more difficult.

[Firepower]

Pretty much, yeah. It's a big gamble and our CT only marginally improved our odds above 50% success on the 9 inch charge.

[Marshal Arthur]

If smite was weakened a bit things wouldn't be such a problem. Either change it so you can only cast it once per phase, change mortal wounds so they don't spill over (so D3 damage would only ever kill one model), or give us alternative ways to deny the witch. Smite is also really easy to reliably cast, and with CP rerolls it's near impossible to fail or suffer a perils so an increase in difficulty and inherent risks could help. Other than rule changes allies seem like the best counter in which case I'd prefer Grey Knights. They too require an aggressive strategy and can deepstrike to support deepstriking Templars. They also have a smaller model count than other ally choices so I wouldn't need to buy as many models. It's just a shame our buffs don't apply to them. We could also try to take advantage of the fact that smite must target the closest unit but if they're spamming psykers doesn't seem as effective.

[Stemplar]

The re roll of charge has failed 100% of the times I've tried it. Better to re roll one dice with a CP. As far as general tactics go ... two thoughts and a question:

 

The Stormraven is fantastic in 8th. Lots of shooting, hard to hit and able to drop a dreadnought and anything else wherever you need it. I've had lots of luck with it. I know that's not chapter specific, but getting the EC in close with protection, or dropping Helbrecht in with a decent unit means we can go nuts.

 

I focussed on killing the psyker last time out and it worked great. Stormraven, lots of shooting, throwing everything at it. Still think that's the best way.

 

Question ... How do we feel about bringing in help? Adding a couple of assassins or an allied unit that can compliment what we do?

[Gerhard]

I am definately open to allied detachments, but thats because my aim is always to be as competitive as I can. So I definately don't mins getting assassins or even allying with Psykers :).

[Ebon Hand]

Edit: Double post Edited August 27, 2017 by Ebon Hand

[Ebon Hand]

Maybe I am looking at it through rose tinted lenses but our chapter tactic has really been an asset to me. Sure there's times where I roll 3 and reroll to another 3, but it's saved me from l failing important charges. Granted, I don't really play competitively anymore, but we don't make totally soft lists here either, just not tournament level competitive.

 

I agree, I don't think righteous zeal is something you should build your army around, but rather something you consider while playing. I don't know about you guys but assault has happened every game I've played, and in 8th being the one charging is important even if it's just with a shooting unit to tie up something scary. It gives you more reliability in some situations, and the usefulness of that is hard to quantify. I think it's better than some make it out to be, but that's just my opinion.

 

I'm also thinking Grey Knights are a good ally choice not only for the psyker defense but some anti deamon abilities and close combat strength as well. They just seem to mesh well. Deamon princes and deamon engines are strong and they're everywhere.

[Medjugorje]

If you want discussing about playing against Smite-spam. You must look on this case with the same competitive sight. We have to spam the same strong units we have... but in that case, its not close combat but shooting units which buffed by Helbrecht.

 

Take Razrobacks with Stormcannons, LRC with Stormcannons and Hurricane-bolters. And take Stromravens. So you have the abilities to kill all Psykers very fast.  Beside Horrors, but they are even TOP TIER NR.1  -  so its not a BT-problem but a problem for all.