Interesting thought on WC Facebook regarding BTs

[Ebon Hand]

Indeed Medjugorje, we could try out doing our own version of Guilliman gunline but with a strong assault unit (assault Terminators?) thrown in for counter charge that takes advantage of Helbrecht's strength buff. That's getting more into general strategy though. What about specifically vs a psyker army?

 

What Grey Knight units would you guys take, and with what detachment?

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Now that my bro has taken up Deathwatch (which I was planning to add to my Templars sooner or later...) I'm now left w/ no other ally to my force, but the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus... I'm not too keen on taking psykers myself, but I guess adding some psycannons and a Grand Master should be worth throwing away some CPs for psyker defense and general offense... I take it they still have access to Rifle-man Dreads with psychic boosters? I should contemplate taking those over the ridiculous looking Baby-Carrier Knights... I'd rather take Primaris Marines than the Nemesis Dreadknight... or maybe proxy in a Redemptor for the Nemesis... seems about right scale-wise, and just need to add either a Hammer or a sword...

 

Whatever we add in as allies for our force, we always have to consider that they should fill a void which our army lacks... If I take in GK, then I'd have to contemplate if I need to swap them for the Assault role that Terminators/Crusaders should take, and put the BT in ranged support mode with multiple small heavy weapons spam... or if I focus on making the GK the ranged support units, with Psycannons, Rifle-man Dreads and Razorbacks... and use the BT as my main Assault units... going just pure Assault can work too, which I think would compliment both armies still, but will be completely outclassed by a heavily armed ranged army... Tau and Space Marines comes to mind... and will still suffer at the hands of pure dedicated melee armies, such as Khorne or Nids... so I think the best path for GK + BT is a well balanced group that will complement each other and balance them between melee and shooting... maybe something like 60% dedicated melee and 40% dedicated ranged... it's just a matter of who you think can handle melee better...

[Gerhard]

When it comes to Grey Knights then focussing on adding to eachothers strengths is indeed very important. Black Templar have access to Primaris which Grey Knights do not and Grey Knights in turn have beefed up terminators and melee capabilities which the BT can't beat.

 

My take on a combined force would be one or two squads of Paladins (or terminators, depending on the points total), Grand Master Voldus as he can manifest and deny three powers per turn and then any combination required to create some form of detachment. This I still have to figure out. I would not use a Razorback or any vehicle for the Grey Knights as they can teleport strike and have powers to move themselves around the field. Furthermore, you'd sink points of valuable Grey Knights into non-Psykers and the whole point is to complement our weakness.

 

With Black Templar in return I'd focus on shooting in the form if heavy support and bolterfire with potentially one Reiver squad just to annoy the enemy. Grey Knights lack heavy firepower so a squad of Hellblasters, a Dread with double Auto-Cannon, and maybe Predator could do well to complement it.

 

Grey Knights can then be used as counter-charge while Black Templar focus on mowing stuff down.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Gerhard

[Ciler]

Nope. That dread is gone.

[Gerhard]

Still in the Index no?

[Ciler]

Still in the Index no?

Yes, indeed.

[Gerhard]

So that means it can still be used? I could be missing something of course but I assumed that, based on that FAQ by GW, the Dread with double Auto Cannon was still possible even if not in de Codex: Space Marines.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Yes but codex loudout replaces index one So No you can't use TAC Dread, unless you take FW one contemptor or deredoe i don' t remember now

[Gerhard]

It replaces? I had no idea that was the case. I thought it was "you can use either"...

[Ciler]

That question of whether index loadouts are still usable is still very much up in the air (there's two threads in the general astartes section you can read to get an idea of the arguments in favour and against). The matter is further complicated by the fact that not all tournament organisers do share the same view on the matter.

 

If you want to use an index loadout in a casual game, the safest thing is to make sure the person you're playing with is OK with it. Once that is established, as far as I'm concerned you're fine.

 

Aegir : the FW mortis pattern does not have psyker, so is not a great option for GK players.

 

edit : spelling, grammar and... missing words galore

Edited August 29, 2017 by Ciler

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Ok that's Right.

 

I've read somewhere about it. If the model isn't in the codex for example apothecary on bike you can use index values And rules, but If it is in codex then he replace the rules from index, although i don't remember the sourcebut it was gw ones. Facebook funpage of gw but not for sure

[Gerhard]

That question of whether index loadouts are still usable is still very much up in the air (there's two threads in the general astartes section you can read to getan idea of the arguments for and against). The matter is further complicated by the fact that not all tournament organisers do not share the same view on the matter.

 

If you want to use an index loadout in a casual, the safest thing is to make sure the person you're playing with is OK with it. Once that is established, as far as I' concerned you're fine.

 

Aegir : the FW mortis pattern does not have psyker, so is not a great option for GK players.

 

Thanks for that clarification and apologies for my earlier wrong assumption in that case. I had no idea. 

[Ciler]

Ok that's Right.

 

I've read somewhere about it. If the model isn't in the codex for example apothecary on bike you can use index values And rules, but If it is in codex then he replace the rules from index, although i don't remember the sourcebut it was gw ones. Facebook funpage of gw but not for sure

It was on the community website. But as I indicated, people have made vastly different readings of the statement.

[Ebon Hand]

Wow I'm surprised this is still coming up. The statement was that old index loadouts are possible, you just have to use all points cost and power level from the newer book. It's a datasheet replacement if there's newer datasheet with the same name, it's a points replacement if there isn't. So you can't get a double autocannon dread from the Grey Knights Codex, but you can get one from the Forgeworld index by taking a Mortis Pattern Dreadnought.

 

Edit for proof: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

 

"Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index)."

 

"Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?

The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version."

 

And as always you can do anything if your opponent and you agree to it.

 

Why not just go for a Redemptor Dread or Deredeo if shooting is what you want? I'm thinking the Grey Knight allies need to be bringing anti psyker and anti deamon close combat more than anything. Other areas like shooty dreads we aren't really lacking, it's not what we need help with. I think I'd be looking at a Patrol with a squad of GK Terminators and a Grey Knight HQ, or a Supreme Command with several HQs. Something cheap and spliced in to augment the Black Templars, not steal their glory (and their points).

 

I must admit though, I'm not very familiar with the new Grey Knights yet. Are there any small groups they have that can counter certain threats well?

Edited August 29, 2017 by Ebon Hand

[Marshal Arthur]

What about a supreme command detachment? Just take a couple librarians and a brother-captain and you have multiple psykers who can deep strike and reposition themselves wherever needed.

[Gerhard]

The thing with Grey Knights is that their units do not come cheap, so we have to be a bit selective. Since its focussed on Psyker Defense, we want the units that can deny as much as possible. Looking at HQ choises, one stands out: Grand Master Voldus as he has three denies available to him per enemy Psyker phase.

 

As for the rest of the detachment, there are two options I think.

 

A supreme command, and taking two Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknights. The major downside of this detachment is that it is a massive point sink... but in return you get 7 times deny the witch from three units. Total point cost of this setup starts at 570 though, and then there is the optional wargear still to be added. Grand Master Dread Knights are extremely durable and powerful though, and can dish out rediculous damage.

 

Another option would be to take Voldus, and then add a multitude of small squads which can each deny 1 power. This could either be a patrol detachment with Voldus and (for example) 3 strike squads, giving you 6 denies as well at a cost of stock 380 points, or trying to make it a battalion detachment, with Voldus, 3 strike squads and a brother captain, giving you 7 denies at a stock cost of 530.

[Gerhard]

So, I purchased the Codex and have my first Grey Knight models. Going to run a few games with then as allies to see how it goes. Time to paint and then I'll keep you updated on how it goes!