Building a UM battalion detachment

[Izlude]

HI,

 

New to the 8th edition and had a few questions building a UM battalion detachment and did go via the new rules once:

 

1. Transports: Maybe I missed this but I wanted to take a squad of cata termis as an elite choice. Can I take a LR redeemer as a transport for them and save on a heavy support slot?

 

2. Kantor: I actually love his model and painted him up as a UM. Can I use him and his rules as a commander for my UM army? 

 

3. I own a Sicarian tank from Forgeworld. I wasn't sure how if I could add that to my detachment. I have the rules for it and the power points. Is it considered a heavy support and would I need consent to use it?

 

Thanks!

[Frater Cornelius]

1. No. Land Raiders do not have the dedicated transport battlefield role. You would need to invest that HS slot.

 

2. No. Kantor has the <Crimson Fists> keyword, which means he can be an <Ultramarine>. Only units with the <Chapter> keyword can choose. The rest are locked into their respective Chapter. You can use his model, but not his rules.

 

3. You would need to use the Forge World Index for the rules. It is an Elite choice, funnily enough. There is nothing else to it. It is a legal unit. You might eat some flak though, as FW is not very popular in many areas. It is also a Relic unit, which means you need more non-Relic units your army than Relic units, which isn't much of a concern if you only have one tank. Other than that, there is nothing more to it. Get the rules and happy hunting.

[Ishagu]

You don't need more non relics, just the same number.

For example, your Terminator squad unlocks the Sicaran for your army.

 

Forgeworld is fine, use it. Beautiful models, thematic rules.

 

 

As for Kantor, no - he can't lead the Ultramarines. If you put him in an Ultramarine detachment you'll lose Chapter Tactics, and his rules and auras only apply to Crimson Fists.

You can run him as a generic Captain with Storm Bolter and Power Fist, however.

 

The Landraiders are heavy support choices only. Well worth it in this detachment.

The regular variant with Las Cannons is generally the most useful in my experiences.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Ishagu

[crazyterran]

1: No, sadly. I bet future codices will get something like that, but for now, no.

 

2: Cant run his rules as an Ultramarine, but he would make an awesome Chapter Master with Power Fist and Primarchs Wrath, no?

 

3: the Sicaran is an elites choice, you can see what choice they are in the top left corner of their datasheet. A Crux Terminatus is Elite.

[Toxichobbit]

2: Cant run his rules as an Ultramarine, but he would make an awesome Chapter Master with Power Fist and Primarchs Wrath, no?

 

 

Primarch's Wrath is a boltgun. Kantor has a storm bolter, so that wouldn't work.

[Ishagu]

Also you're sacrificing the full benefit of the Batallion to make him a CM.

 

Better to just run Calgar.

[crazyterran]

 

2: Cant run his rules as an Ultramarine, but he would make an awesome Chapter Master with Power Fist and Primarchs Wrath, no?

 

 

Primarch's Wrath is a boltgun. Kantor has a storm bolter, so that wouldn't work.

Considering Primarch's Wrath fires the same shots as a Stormbolter, I dont think anyone will split too many hairs if you run the ornate, wrist mounted boltgun as the Primarch's Wrath.

 

Also you're sacrificing the full benefit of the Batallion to make him a CM.

Better to just run Calgar.

Fair play, a Captain works just as well - whether it's worth it or not depends on the rest of the list, i imagine, but most of the time you are correct - unless someone is really deadset on running a certain model.

[Toxichobbit]

Considering Primarch's Wrath fires the same shots as a Stormbolter, I dont think anyone will split too many hairs if you run the ornate, wrist mounted boltgun as the Primarch's Wrath.

 

 

Maybe, maybe not. If it's the only proxy then it's not such a big deal. If there's multiple proxies then people might get annoyed. Dorn's Arrow is quite clearly a storm bolter, two barrels, wrist mounted - just like Grey Knights and Grimnar, so WYSIWIG it's breaking the rules. Once you start breaking WYSIWIG, how long before other things change. Scatter lasers become bright lances (they're both lasers after all), devourers becomes deathspitters (both have three shots, just like your stormbolter-Primarch's Wrath reasoning) etc. Sure. it's not a big deal and I doubt many people would outright refuse, but once you cross the WYSIWIG line you're then imposing arbitrary restrictions as to where that line is now drawn. If you start proxying, even something as innocent as Dorn's Arrow - Primarch's Wrath, then your regular opponents can start proxying and things can get swifty out of control.

 

Personally, I like to draw the line at WYSIWIG is WYSIWIG. I wouldn't get all bent out of shape about the OP having Kantor with Primarch's Wrath, but it's not somewhere I'd personally go, either for myself or with my regular opponents. I like clean games, proxy and counts as muddy the waters. There's enough ambigiuity with GW's rules writing without adding more.

 

If it was me, I'd be looking into either leaving him with a storm bolter, or (more likely) giving him a really nice looking boltgun that could run as either a master-crafted bolter or Primarch's Wrath. There's a few fancy boltguns in various kits and adding stuff like purity seals and 3rd party scopes, PEQs, foregrips etc can make for a really distinctive and awesome looking gun.

[crazyterran]

If you are going to dislike proxies, using the Pedro Kantor model at all would be a negative, no? He has a distinct look, and even just shaving the fists off him doesnt really solve it.

[Ishagu]

You can shave off any CF iconography I guess.

 

At that point it becomes a conversion.

[fisheyedbunny]

If it is just friendly games at a local club or people you know there is nothing stopping you using Kantor and just saying everything looks like Ultramarines but they are all actually Crimson Fists and they don't get the Ultra chapter tactics rather they get the Crimson Fists one or Imperial Fists if there isn't a CF one. That is how I use my Howling Griffons, I say they all look like Howling Griffons but they are using the Ultramarines chapter tactics since they are a successor. I could use the Black Templar, Salamander or Imperial Fist one if I wanted, essentially there is nothing stopping you as the colour of the model is just so it looks nice. The most important thing is for the detachment all of them are from the same Chapter.

 

Its your game so do what you want mate, if you showed up against me and said that the Ultramarine Kantor and the Ultramarine dudes are all using Crimson Fist chapter tactics because you love the model and want to run the army I wouldn't mind.

[Toxichobbit]

If you are going to dislike proxies, using the Pedro Kantor model at all would be a negative, no? He has a distinct look, and even just shaving the fists off him doesnt really solve it.

 

Nah. There's a difference between proxy and conversion. Kantor painted Ultramarine (or another Chapter that uses Ultra Chapter Tactics) with the fists removed isn't a proxy, it's a conversion. At least to me. You could even just put purity seals or terminator honours on the fists or paint them into his heraldry. Sure. it's only a minor conversion, but it shows the player has gone to the effort to fit him into with their Chapter, which is something I can respect.

 

Kantor painted as Kantor leading Ultramarines though, that wouldn't go down as well. It's not something I'm interested in regularly playing against, even if it isn't using Kantor's rules. I hate the current philosophy of so many players of chopping and changing the rules as they feel and disregarding what the models look like. Ultramarines with Raven Guard CTs, Ultramarines with White Scar CTs, Ultramarines using Deathwing or Ravenwing rules. Home brew Chapters with a version of every special character available that switch Chapter Tactics like other people switch underwear. It definitely impacts game experience for me and many of my regular opponents when we have to constantly remember which army we're playing against today, what they're armed with etc becase the models don't represent the rules.

 

I'm not completely against proxying, I get that sometimes you just want to switch things up to keep it interesting or try out a new unit's rules before putting in the cash and effort to aquire and prepare them for a game. That's all cool and I play against proxies from time to time without issue. It's the habitual proxiers that I have no interest in sharing my small part of this hobby with.

 

So, with regards to the OP, if it's a case of loving Kantor, wanting to use Kantor's rules, model, background etc but wanting to be able to run Ultramarines when you don't feel like using Kantor, then I'd say give Kantor and your opponents the respect they deserve and put the effort into doing a detachment of Crimson Fists. If it's a case of loving Kantor's model and wanting to use it in an Ultramarine army while using whatever rules are most appropriate for Ultramarines (as I suspect it is) then if you're willing to go to the effort of painting him to match and maybe even converting him a bit to fit him in, then I'm 100% behind that. I know not everyone is bothered about what the models on the table look like and that's fine. As the poster above said it's your game and by extension your models, do what you want. Just be aware that while it's your game, it's also my game, the guy on the table next to you's game and every other person who buys the rules and plays with toy soldier's game too.

[Ishagu]

I'm assuming TC has made efforts to convert Kantor.

 

Seeing a Marine covered in CF iconography leading Ultras would be immersion breaking for me.

 

We should be encouraging players to use their minis as modelled, and not just to proxy from game to game.