New Company Organization w/Primaris Marines

[DogWelder]

So I was interested as to how the Primaris Marines would be integrated into the Chapters and what their organization would be. I'm using the Ultramarines 2nd Company from Codex Space Marines 8th Edition as the default one since they were always the 'model company' in the previous codicies as well.

 

 

As you can see, the Primaris Space Marines seem to be organized into 5-man squads instead of the traditional 10. This means there has to be even more squads in the company to make sure the numbers are up to a 100. I counted 104 members of the Ultramarines 2nd Company, including the Dreadnoughts.

 

Also the Chapter Layout says there are only 10 squads within the Company while the Company Layout clearly shows 2 more. Is this an error/oversight in the editing of the Codex?

Edited August 23, 2017 by DogWelder

[Eddie Orlock]

Nope.

... A company is traditionally organised into ten squads of ten Space Marines, each led by a Sergeant. However, new guidelines in Guilliman's updated Codex Asteres provide for up to twenty squads of five battle-brothers. ...

[DogWelder]

Nope.

... A company is traditionally organised into ten squads of ten Space Marines, each led by a Sergeant. However, new guidelines in Guilliman's updated Codex Asteres provide for up to twenty squads of five battle-brothers. ...

 

 

Ah I must have missed that part. Makes sense then since Primaris SM squads are up to 5.

 

I assume the Primaris only Chapters have 20 squads while the mixed Chapters have 10-20.

 

This raises a point though. Does that mean the more Primaris Marines in the Chapter the better? Why didn't Guilliman just make the Ultramarines Primaris-only? He clearly had thousands of Primaris SMs he used to make new Chapters in Ultramar with.

[Eddie Orlock]

Why didn't Guilliman just make the Ultramarines Primaris-only?

Because Guilliman is frugal with the Emperor's resources, and while they're not the latest model his existing gene-sons are still serviceable combatants. In time they may all perish and be replaced, but this has yet to happen.

 

All that's rationalisation though.

 

From a real life perspective it's probably closer to the truth to say they don't wish to immediately alienate all those players with large, existing, Ultramarine collections. So, the fluff's adjusted to accommodate this exigency.

[DogWelder]

 

Why didn't Guilliman just make the Ultramarines Primaris-only?

Because Guilliman is frugal with the Emperor's resources, and while they're not the latest model his existing gene-sons are still serviceable combatants. In time they may all perish and be replaced, but this has yet to happen.

 

All that's rationalisation though.

 

From a real life perspective it's probably closer to the truth to say they don't wish to immediately alienate all those players with large, existing, Ultramarine collections. So, the fluff's adjusted to accommodate this exigency.

 

 

That makes sense. So if we assume that this distribution of Primaris Space Marines is consistent throughout all the companies (though the reserve companies may have gotten more as reinforcements due to the losses of regular marines the Ultramarines had during the Plague Wars): 25 Primaris SM per company for a total of around 200-250 Primaris Marines per Chapter in a regular 'mixed' Chapter Id imagine.

 

I assume the percentage of Primaris Marines will slowly overtake the regular marines as time goes on though.

[shipmonkey]

The Ultramarines also have a fully Primaris manned 11th company now too.

[Closet Skeleton]

Back in 2nd ed Terminator squads were always 5 man so the first company actually had up to 20 squads. So there's precedent for this.

 

But the 2nd ed idea of the codex astartes was a lot more sensible than the post 3rd ed one, since it made it clear that 1000 was not the maximum size of a chapter but the expected peace time size and the actual campaign size allowed for unlimited recruitment.

[munocat]

Decals in the primaris hellblasters box now go up to 20 squads. Edited August 24, 2017 by munocat

[Ciler]

Back in 2nd ed Terminator squads were always 5 man so the first company actually had up to 20 squads. So there's precedent for this.

 

But the 2nd ed idea of the codex astartes was a lot more sensible than the post 3rd ed one, since it made it clear that 1000 was not the maximum size of a chapter but the expected peace time size and the actual campaign size allowed for unlimited recruitment.

Peace time ? Are we living in the same imperium ?

 

Joking aside, that 1000 marines thing has always been fuzzy anyway, because it was for instance never made clear whether it included officers, vehicle pilots, dreadnoughts etc...

[DogWelder]

 

Back in 2nd ed Terminator squads were always 5 man so the first company actually had up to 20 squads. So there's precedent for this.

 

But the 2nd ed idea of the codex astartes was a lot more sensible than the post 3rd ed one, since it made it clear that 1000 was not the maximum size of a chapter but the expected peace time size and the actual campaign size allowed for unlimited recruitment.

Peace time ? Are we living in the same imperium ?

 

Joking aside, that 1000 marines thing has always been fuzzy anyway, because it was for instance never made clear whether it included officers, vehicle pilots, dreadnoughts etc...

 

 

Not everyone is on constant crusade all the time :P lol

 

I think the size should be assumed to be around 1100 or slightly higher all things considered. Especially considering vehicle/air armies in the chapter as well. 

[tdemayo]

So what does one of the newly-founded Primaris chapters look like? Technically, the new model range has enough variety to create a Codex-compliant list of Intercessors, Hellblasters, Inceptors and Agressors -- but that's an extremely limited selection. I sorta have to assume that there are Primaris armaments and vehicles we simply have not seen yet. They have to have Techmarines, for example, even if there are no rules or model. Likewise, I find it hard to imagine a functional chapter with little to no long-ranged las cannon support, close up anti tank meltaguns, MBTs, close support aircraft, and so forth. Even if such gear exists only in the background, without models currently.

 

Primaries Marines can't get in a normal Rhino or Land Raider. In game, this is clearly to separate the new stuff from the old stuff and sell a lot of new transports. But in the game world, are these vehicles physically too small to cram a Primaris inside the chassis? Can a Rhino hull be retrofitted to accept a Primaris driver? Are there Primaris-crewed Predators, Whirlwinds, and so forth? (It seems very unlikely that the Imperium or any Chapter would abandon such valuable, ancient machines.). What about scouts? Scouts are still growing boys. Do Primaris initiates go thru a scout stage? Are existing scout models supposed to represent them at a stage of unfinished growth?

 

For that matter, what is it like be a Primaris Marine in such a chapter? Do they remember being inducted, trained, and then .... shoved into stasis. Do they resent having been Marinesicles for centuries or millenia, when they could have been out in the galaxy fighting? Are the oldest-frozen ones as appalled and POed as Guilliman must be? Are they miffed at Cawl? (I mean, what if Guilliman had died? Would the Admech have kept the Primaris Marines in the freezer -forever-?)

Edited August 24, 2017 by tdemayo

[Felix Antipodes]

@tdemayo

These are some of the questions that pushed me from a Ultima Founding all Primaris Chapter to an Astartes reinforced with Primaris one. In some cases I have simply swapped an Intercessor, etc, unit for an equivalent tactical, etc, one. In others I have replaced a random Primaris fit out with Astartes weaponry (bolt rifle for bolter, etc) to represent casualty replacements. (Still building these as I'm not a great bits converter). If/when they release the "missing" troops and vehicles I will think about a full Primaris then, but as it stands it's too half-arsed for me ATT.

[Ogun]

So what does one of the newly-founded Primaris chapters look like? Technically, the new model range has enough variety to create a Codex-compliant list of Intercessors, Hellblasters, Inceptors and Agressors -- but that's an extremely limited selection. I sorta have to assume that there are Primaris armaments and vehicles we simply have not seen yet. They have to have Techmarines, for example, even if there are no rules or model. Likewise, I find it hard to imagine a functional chapter with little to no long-ranged las cannon support, close up anti tank meltaguns, MBTs, close support aircraft, and so forth. Even if such gear exists only in the background, without models currently.

 

Primaries Marines can't get in a normal Rhino or Land Raider. In game, this is clearly to separate the new stuff from the old stuff and sell a lot of new transports. But in the game world, are these vehicles physically too small to cram a Primaris inside the chassis? Can a Rhino hull be retrofitted to accept a Primaris driver? Are there Primaris-crewed Predators, Whirlwinds, and so forth? (It seems very unlikely that the Imperium or any Chapter would abandon such valuable, ancient machines.). What about scouts? Scouts are still growing boys. Do Primaris initiates go thru a scout stage? Are existing scout models supposed to represent them at a stage of unfinished growth?

 

For that matter, what is it like be a Primaris Marine in such a chapter? Do they remember being inducted, trained, and then .... shoved into stasis. Do they resent having been Marinesicles for centuries or millenia, when they could have been out in the galaxy fighting? Are the oldest-frozen ones as appalled and POed as Guilliman must be? Are they miffed at Cawl? (I mean, what if Guilliman had died? Would the Admech have kept the Primaris Marines in the freezer -forever-?)

 

A lot of good questions, and I hope we find out some of these details soon. 

Looking at that 2nd company layout I am increasingly convinced that standard marines are still being recruited alongside Primaris. The Indomitus Crusade has been underway for 120 years by the time given for that formation. Primaris have therefore been in the UMs for probably over half a century at least, possibly a lot longer. From everything we've been told so far the UMs have been busy constantly defending Ultramar since before the Gathering Storm, and taking heavy casualties doing so. If they had switched wholly to making Primaris I would have expected to see a far larger proportion of them present by now.

I suppose it is possible that RG means for chapters to contain both sorts. He is revealed as being a bit iffy about the Primaris in Dark Imperium. I'm a bit disappointed we've not yet had a bit more on any downsides with recruiting Primaris, i.e. are they slower to make, are there higher transformation mortality rates, or perhaps more restrictions on genetic compatibility? These would be interesting as then you could see Ultima Founding Chapters actually starting to raise standard marines to keep their numbers up. It would create an interesting dynamic, sort of the opposite to that of the Primaris introduced into established chapters. Part of the chapter would be composed my marines who are probably hyper conscious that in some way they didn't make the grade. It would create some interesting narrative potential.

[Blindhamster]

Cawl specifically said that they have less issues with comparability, he also says they have a much higher success rate. And they take exactly as long as any other marine to make as per codex space marines.

 

Guilliman doesn't have concerns about the primaris, he refers to them as the future and believes regular marines days are numbered. He is even going so far as to prefer primaris for roles close to him, and getting them to do non combat tasks like dealing with architects and important folk.

He does have concerns about cawl though. The one instance that could be deamed a concern about primaris would be the line "cawls blasphemous hordes". And that line is as likely to be a note to his view on cawl as anything else.

[Ogun]

Cawl specifically said that they have less issues with comparability, he also says they have a much higher success rate. And they take exactly as long as any other marine to make as per codex space marines.

 

Guilliman doesn't have concerns about the primaris, he refers to them as the future and believes regular marines days are numbered. He is even going so far as to prefer primaris for roles close to him, and getting them to do non combat tasks like dealing with architects and important folk.

He does have concerns about cawl though. The one instance that could be deamed a concern about primaris would be the line "cawls blasphemous hordes". And that line is as likely to be a note to his view on cawl as anything else.

 

It is interesting that we get the 'days of the older Space Marines were numbered' from Decimus' thoughts, not Guilliman's. 'Cawl's blasphemous hordes' stands out in part because it is the first time Guilliman really expresses a private opinion on the Primaris. The term, to me, seems to impart judgement on both Cawl and the Primaris. Guilliman is happy to use them, but he clearly has some hang ups which might become significant down the road.  

I got the impression that part of the reason Guilliman was fostering mainly Primaris was that they were in general far less experienced than their normal counterparts. 

 

I had a look at the Dark Imperium bit again. Cawl's comments were that, mutational deviancy was 'less than 0.001%', also;

'All Chapters who have adopted the Primaris paradigm have adapted to the new creation processes with minimal wastage of recruits or mistakes in implantation'.

It's not really clear if wastage is in comparison to the wastage inherent in making Primaris, or old style Marines. I can't find a comment on compatibility, can you remember where it was?

[Captain Idaho]

Actually I believe it was Felix who considered Guilliman's thoughts were that the Classic Marine days were numbered.

 

***edited*** was it not Felix? Never mind, it weren't Guilliman!

 

Guilliman made a point of telling the Imperium that Primaris Marines are not above corruption, using his past experience with his brothers as an example. It's obvious from that action he doesn't trust Primaris Marines above Classic Marines. He's also worried about a barrier between them hence why Felix becomes Tetrach.

 

I firmly believe Chapters are still recruiting traditional Marines. The process of changing a classic Marine into a Primaris takes time, something like 15 years (can't remember exactly) and that implies Primaris Marines go through the process of a Space Marine 1st. In addition their additional organs are not replacements to existing organs which implies again that you need to be a Space Marine to be a Primaris.

 

So if you need the warriors quickly and Space Marines are perfectly suitable, waiting another 15 years for recruits is a difficult decision. Sure a Chapter can recruit every year to get a turn around, but remember there are limits to size and resources. That's why most Chapter recruit either once a generation or as and when they're replacing heavy losses.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Captain Idaho

[Ogun]

Actually I believe it was Felix who considered Guilliman's thoughts were that the Classic Marine days were numbered.

 

***edited*** was it not Felix? Never mind, it weren't Guilliman!

 

Guilliman made a point of telling the Imperium that Primaris Marines are not above corruption, using his past experience with his brothers as an example. It's obvious from that action he doesn't trust Primaris Marines above Classic Marines. He's also worried about a barrier between them hence why Felix becomes Tetrach.

 

I firmly believe Chapters are still recruiting traditional Marines. The process of changing a classic Marine into a Primaris takes time, something like 15 years (can't remember exactly) and that implies Primaris Marines go through the process of a Space Marine 1st. In addition their additional organs are not replacements to existing organs which implies again that you need to be a Space Marine to be a Primaris.

 

So if you need the warriors quickly and Space Marines are perfectly suitable, waiting another 15 years for recruits is a difficult decision. Sure a Chapter can recruit every year to get a turn around, but remember there are limits to size and resources. That's why most Chapter recruit either once a generation or as and when they're replacing heavy losses.

 

Sorry, was using his surname! Yes, Felix Decimus. 

[Robbienw]

Chapters are undoubtedly still making new normal marines in the current time period, otherwise scouts wouldnt be in the codex anymore, nor would they be in the new fluff. 

 

Perhaps Primaris Marines take more resources or time to produce, perhaps they are not quite as capable in some nebulous way that would require normal marines to still be around, or perhaps the chapters still need to use their huge amounts of advanced wargear and relics (such as terminator armour and almost their entire force of vehicles) that Primaris are unable to use and cannot be replaced quickly by Primaris specific wargear.

 

GW have been vague about this in the new fluff so far.  I suspect this is because they are waiting to see how Primaris marine fluff is received and how well the models sell compared to regular marine models going forward, before they make a decision on wether they will eventually replace regular marines or remain as a supplementary force to them.  

[tdemayo]

There are always gene-seed supplies to consider.  Older chapters that received reinforcements cannot possibly have enough Primaris gene-seed to switch over completely, even if they wanted to.

[Blindhamster]

It doesn't take 15 years to make a regular marine into a primaris marine... where in earth are you getting that.

 

A regular marine cannot be made into a primaris marine based on all text we have so far. A primaris marine takes exactly as long as any other marine to make, with the three extra organs going in at steps along the way to make any other marine.

[Boldthreat]

Yeah, put me in the camp that believes the Primaris will eventually replace the traditional Adeptus Astartes.

 

Dark Imperium is pretty clear that the regular Astartes are a dying breed. Primaris gene seed is more stable and better. I.E. Imperial Fist Primaris gene seed not only has the three new organs unique to the Primaris, but also have the 2 organs they have been missing for some time now.

 

Why would you continue to use the degraded and worse gene seed? Especially when the new gene seed also come with new/better technology? You wouldn't. The originals are a dying breed. In fact some chapters are probably already more Primaris than not:

 

The Crimson Fists are noted as being almost completely rebuilt with Primaris marines following Guilliman and the Indomitus Crusade reaching Rynn. Any regular Astartes that survives Waaagh Snagrod and the following Chaos Invasion can probably fit in the Crusade company now. The rest would be Primaris.

 

The Imperial Fists are another chapter that more than likely have a higher Primaris to normal Astartes ratio. Especially with how much GW and BL like to kill them.

 

Executioners are another Chapter that would almost completely be rebuilt following their Penitent Crusade.

 

Marines Errant are another Chapter that would get a new lease on life following the sacking of their repository.

 

We know the Blood Angels are single handedly saved by the Indomitus Crusade and rebuilt with Primaris.

 

All across the new fluff it's clear that Chapters are accepting the new Astartes and embracing them as the future of their organizations. Most instances necessarily so.

 

After the Plague Wars and the Konor campaign... I would be shocked if the Ultramarines didn't have more Primaris than not. I just don't believe there is a valid reason to keep making regular Astartes anymore... at least for the Chapters that accepted them.

[Jochteas]

As per the wiki

 

I'm working on a Primaris army myself and have had a similar question. Upon further reading this is what I found.

 

Here is what a current company looks like after the Codex revisions by Guilliman

 

Chapter

1st Veteran Company

2nd Battle Company

3rd Battle Company

4th Battle Company

5th Battle Company

6th Reserve Company -Battle Line

7th Reserve Company -Battle Line

8th Reserve Company -close support

9th Reserve Company -fire support

10th Scout Company

 

The veteran company has all your veteran units in it and get shuffled around to battle companies or missions as needed to assist.

The battle company is made up of 6-12 Battle line units, 2-4 close fire support units, and 2-4 fire support units. These companies are the primary marine fighting force. They make up the companies 2-5.

 

Companies 6-9 have units of the type listed who are greener and still learning. They typically get sent to battle companies 2-5 as need to reinforce or resupply

 

Company 10 is scouts and basically neophytes who just got in and are learning the ropes.

 

Battle line units that are primaris are:

Intercessors,

 

Primaris units that fall under fire support are:

Hellblasters

Aggressors

 

Close support that are primaris are

Reivers

Inceptors

 

 

Non primaris marines all get shuffled into these categories as well but these are just the primaris designations

Edited August 29, 2017 by Jochteas

[Ogun]

It is pretty clear that the Primaris are being embraced by the chapters, and it is pretty clear that the replacement of the regular Astartes is being held up as an in universe possibility (leaving aside debates about GW's real world intentions for a moment).

 

There are some points that are a bit problematic though. Guilliman has made no move to make the Primaris replicate other Codex units. He can hardly think that the Codex is such a failure that he needs to dispose of it after keeping the Imperium together for 10,000 years. Instead the Primaris are formed purely in units complementary to the Codex formations. Those units still fulfil vital functions the Primaris units struggle with. Felix admits himself in Dark Imperium that, for example, the old Tactical squads have their advantages over Primaris units. If Guilliman wanted to have the Primaris fill the full range of codex roles after 120 years we would have already seen him do it. Until they do, Chapters still have a motivation for continuing to implant their standard marine geneseed, which, as tdemayo has astutely pointed out, they probably have in larger quantities than Primaris.

 

I think we also need to bear in mind the rule 101 of 40k geneseed lore. Never fiddle with geneseed... There is not a single case of anyone other than the Emperor doing it without it going wrong somehow. The Raven Guard fiddled with it during the Heresy and a couple of centuries later it degraded severely. The Primaris are hardly going to implode and go extinct, but odds are pretty good on some unexpected flaw cropping up in the not too distant future. 

[Boldthreat]

It is pretty clear that the Primaris are being embraced by the chapters, and it is pretty clear that the replacement of the regular Astartes is being held up as an in universe possibility (leaving aside debates about GW's real world intentions for a moment).

 

There are some points that are a bit problematic though. Guilliman has made no move to make the Primaris replicate other Codex units. He can hardly think that the Codex is such a failure that he needs to dispose of it after keeping the Imperium together for 10,000 years. Instead the Primaris are formed purely in units complementary to the Codex formations. Those units still fulfil vital functions the Primaris units struggle with. Felix admits himself in Dark Imperium that, for example, the old Tactical squads have their advantages over Primaris units. If Guilliman wanted to have the Primaris fill the full range of codex roles after 120 years we would have already seen him do it. Until they do, Chapters still have a motivation for continuing to implant their standard marine geneseed, which, as tdemayo has astutely pointed out, they probably have in larger quantities than Primaris.

 

I think we also need to bear in mind the rule 101 of 40k geneseed lore. Never fiddle with geneseed... There is not a single case of anyone other than the Emperor doing it without it going wrong somehow. The Raven Guard fiddled with it during the Heresy and a couple of centuries later it degraded severely. The Primaris are hardly going to implode and go extinct, but odds are pretty good on some unexpected flaw cropping up in the not too distant future.

I think you are missing one very important point that invalidates this though, and that is the new Chapters that are made up entirely of Primaris marines, the ones created in the Ultima Founding.

 

Do you believe these chapters have Primaris Tactical/assault/devestator/etc squads? Do you believe these Chapters have their own repository of regular geneseed to create those kinds of squads? We know that's not true because the Space marine codex already clearly states that there are new chapters made up solely of Primaris marines.

 

No I think the intention is that the Primaris Intercessor squads are the battle line squads of the Primaris Chapters and eventually all chapters. Same with Hellblasters, inceptors and etc. This is not stopping GW from eventually coming out with legitimate Primaris Tacticals and what have you. As I would bet Dorns scrimshawed hand that we are for sure going to get Primaris Terminators.

 

And regarding the geneseed tampering. I see how you feel about it. Heck I did too initially. But in Dark Imperium, Cawl and Guilliman discuss how 90+% of the existing chapters accepted the new geneseed and the approved indoctrination procedures. I don't want to belittle regular geneseed, but the Primaris is better in every way and all of our favorite Chapters are moving to it. Is there some hidden flaws we haven't seen? Maybe... maybe not. Will it be worse for the blood Angels and space wolves? Maybe. But I am confident that fluff wise Primaris marines are the future of the Astartes, and would wager that most of the hardest hit existing Chapters are already predominantly Primaris.

[Spiky Norman]

[...]

A regular marine cannot be made into a primaris marine based on all text we have so far. A primaris marine takes exactly as long as any other marine to make, with the three extra organs going in at steps along the way to make any other marine.

This was taken from a post on Dakka, where the talk was about how the Carcharadons would relate to the primaris marines. The guy is the author of Red Thirst among others.

 

 

That last paragraph certainly suggests that old marines can be made into primaris marines. Although I understand that the authors post is not absolute GW official.