New Company Organization w/Primaris Marines

[Blindhamster]

that will be great if they do provide some examples of it, currently the only official stuff we have is the process of making a marine and making a primaris marine, two of the primaris organs (sinew coils and amplifier) get implanted very very early in the process, the last one (belisarian furnace) gets implanted right after the kidney implant. In that writeup there is absolutely no indication that they could be added to an existing marine. But it would definitely be good if they could (I took the original twitch comment saying it could be done as gospel and even made my primaris captain to be captain Aphael of the 2nd company blood angels) however since then theres nothing concrete to say it can be done or how it would work :(.

Regardless, it certainly wouldnt take 15 years, as it doesn't take 15 years to make any astartes (11 years to 18 years start to finish, except BA which do it all in a single year but seem to spend more time getting their neophytes adapted to the flaw).

[Ciler]

I think we also need to bear in mind the rule 101 of 40k geneseed lore. Never fiddle with geneseed... There is not a single case of anyone other than the Emperor doing it without it going wrong somehow. The Raven Guard fiddled with it during the Heresy and a couple of centuries later it degraded severely. The Primaris are hardly going to implode and go extinct, but odds are pretty good on some unexpected flaw cropping up in the not too distant future. 

Actually, even what the Emperor did was not an overall success. Many legions had genetic flaws even before 10 000 years of deviations and ritualisation of the implantation. By our modern medical standards, the failure rate of gene seed implantation would be considered absolutely horrendous.

 

 

[...]

A regular marine cannot be made into a primaris marine based on all text we have so far. A primaris marine takes exactly as long as any other marine to make, with the three extra organs going in at steps along the way to make any other marine.

This was taken from a post on Dakka, where the talk was about how the Carcharadons would relate to the primaris marines. The guy is the author of Red Thirst among others.

 

That last paragraph certainly suggests that old marines can be made into primaris marines. Although I understand that the authors post is not absolute GW official.

I only read it as meaning that they can make primaris from new raw recruits, the same way a "normal" marine would be made.

[Lustrati]

I'll be honest, I have found GW's lack of clarification on the whole "Primaris" situation really stupid, the fluff was received hotly contested and more information could have easily helped mitigate it in some fashion. They can not use the excuse they have in the past which boiled down to "the Imperium is shocking at keeping any form of records", this is happening in the now not 5000 or 10,000 years in the past.

 

Given this and the codex, I do not see any new Primaris releases for a long time, which leads me to the theory of they are slowly going to start replacing things in the new scale as they go, although they could just release a new codex in 6 months time to accommodate new units but that will have a side effect of really angering a lot of people who bought the 8th ed codex.

 

This is a failing on GW's part, considering the central role the Primaris play in Dark Imperium you would expect a whole lot more background information on chapters , organization etc.

 

My theory and the one I am using in building my army atm is:

 

Primaris are capable of becoming any designation tactical or whatever, all it means for me is that my tactical guys get 1 less wound then the primaris in RL, apart from that they are the same size etc, could even be a defect of transforming Astartes into primaris is that they are not as tough as "pure" Primaris marines.

 

I am making an army of "truescaled" marines based on the primaris models, although i have noticed that with the greaves and chestplate being separate it could be possible for GW to sell kits with just the parts for MK II to MK VIII armor so who knows, everything is in the air and largely up to a persons perspective which allows a little more freedom in the fluff and army building but can also be construed as GW being lazy and having an "out" should primaris be received badly.

 

 

 

I think we also need to bear in mind the rule 101 of 40k geneseed lore. Never fiddle with geneseed... There is not a single case of anyone other than the Emperor doing it without it going wrong somehow. The Raven Guard fiddled with it during the Heresy and a couple of centuries later it degraded severely. The Primaris are hardly going to implode and go extinct, but odds are pretty good on some unexpected flaw cropping up in the not too distant future.

 

If memory serves, I am sure I read somewhere that the reason the Raven Guard's attempt failed was because it was sabotaged by the Alpha Legion, I believe they did the same to Bile as well. There have been instances where someone in the Imperium has tried to correct flaws etc but given the state of technological decline it is no surprise that they failed.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Lustrati

[Lustrati]

 

I think we also need to bear in mind the rule 101 of 40k geneseed lore. Never fiddle with geneseed... There is not a single case of anyone other than the Emperor doing it without it going wrong somehow. The Raven Guard fiddled with it during the Heresy and a couple of centuries later it degraded severely. The Primaris are hardly going to implode and go extinct, but odds are pretty good on some unexpected flaw cropping up in the not too distant future. 

Actually, even what the Emperor did was not an overall success. Many legions had genetic flaws even before 10 000 years of deviations and ritualisation of the implantation. By our modern medical standards, the failure rate of gene seed implantation would be considered absolutely horrendous.

 

 

[...]

A regular marine cannot be made into a primaris marine based on all text we have so far. A primaris marine takes exactly as long as any other marine to make, with the three extra organs going in at steps along the way to make any other marine.

This was taken from a post on Dakka, where the talk was about how the Carcharadons would relate to the primaris marines. The guy is the author of Red Thirst among others.

 

That last paragraph certainly suggests that old marines can be made into primaris marines. Although I understand that the authors post is not absolute GW official.

I only read it as meaning that they can make primaris from new raw recruits, the same way a "normal" marine would be made.

 

 

If you read the last paragraph again it says "and apply alterations to existing void brothers" which does imply that Astartes can undergo a procedure to add the new organs, although whether it is effective as a proper implant process is unknown.

[Ogun]

I'll be honest, I have found GW's lack of clarification on the whole "Primaris" situation really stupid, the fluff was received hotly contested and more information could have easily helped mitigate it in some fashion. They can not use the excuse they have in the past which boiled down to "the Imperium is shocking at keeping any form of records", this is happening in the now not 5000 or 10,000 years in the past.

 

Given this and the codex, I do not see any new Primaris releases for a long time, which leads me to the theory of they are slowly going to start replacing things in the new scale as they go, although they could just release a new codex in 6 months time to accommodate new units but that will have a side effect of really angering a lot of people who bought the 8th ed codex.

 

This is a failing on GW's part, considering the central role the Primaris play in Dark Imperium you would expect a whole lot more background information on chapters , organization etc.

 

My theory and the one I am using in building my army atm is:

 

Primaris are capable of becoming any designation tactical or whatever, all it means for me is that my tactical guys get 1 less wound then the primaris in RL, apart from that they are the same size etc, could even be a defect of transforming Astartes into primaris is that they are not as tough as "pure" Primaris marines.

 

I am making an army of "truescaled" marines based on the primaris models, although i have noticed that with the greaves and chestplate being separate it could be possible for GW to sell kits with just the parts for MK II to MK VIII armor so who knows, everything is in the air and largely up to a persons perspective which allows a little more freedom in the fluff and army building but can also be construed as GW being lazy and having an "out" should primaris be received badly.

 

 

 

I think we also need to bear in mind the rule 101 of 40k geneseed lore. Never fiddle with geneseed... There is not a single case of anyone other than the Emperor doing it without it going wrong somehow. The Raven Guard fiddled with it during the Heresy and a couple of centuries later it degraded severely. The Primaris are hardly going to implode and go extinct, but odds are pretty good on some unexpected flaw cropping up in the not too distant future.

 

If memory serves, I am sure I read somewhere that the reason the Raven Guard's attempt failed was because it was sabotaged by the Alpha Legion, I believe they did the same to Bile as well. There have been instances where someone in the Imperium has tried to correct flaws etc but given the state of technological decline it is no surprise that they failed.

 

They did indeed, but the daemonic corruption was done to the later waves of the Raptors. The initial batch were completely fine. The corrupted Raptor geneseed was obviously not used again, but it seems that the early Raptor seed may well have been, resulting in the subsequent degradation some time after the Heresy. The okay Raptors were bigger, faster and stronger than standard marines, much like the Primaris. 

[Captain Idaho]

I'm pretty sure the Warhammer Community team posted on Facebook or one of their live seminars that it takes a decade or so to build a Primaris Marine from a regular Marine.

 

Regardless, it must take some time and if you look at it logically, if it's so easy to turn existing classic Marines into Primaris, then why hasn't it been done? ;)

[Blindhamster]

why bother making a regular marine into a primaris when you can make a primaris from a human boy in the same time as you can make a regular marine? (the fact it takes exactly the same amount to make either is written in black and white in the article on creating a space marine)

You could say experience, but considering you'd run a (small) risk of killing the marine during the upgrade process and lose that marines impact on any theater of war for that decade, why bother?

[Lustrati]

I'm pretty sure the Warhammer Community team posted on Facebook or one of their live seminars that it takes a decade or so to build a Primaris Marine from a regular Marine.

 

Regardless, it must take some time and if you look at it logically, if it's so easy to turn existing classic Marines into Primaris, then why hasn't it been done?

 

because than GW would have a lot of very angry customers to deal with, that is why lol

[Robbienw]

why bother making a regular marine into a primaris when you can make a primaris from a human boy in the same time as you can make a regular marine? (the fact it takes exactly the same amount to make either is written in black and white in the article on creating a space marine

Which article is this, do you have a link to/picture of it?

[Lustrati]

why bother making a regular marine into a primaris when you can make a primaris from a human boy in the same time as you can make a regular marine? (the fact it takes exactly the same amount to make either is written in black and white in the article on creating a space marine)

 

You could say experience, but considering you'd run a (small) risk of killing the marine during the upgrade process and lose that marines impact on any theater of war for that decade, why bother?

 

Same time for a more experienced, tougher, faster stronger version of themselves, I can see why space marines would do it, hell most would volunteer if only to improve their combat abilities.

 

Also do not forget that not every chapter has access to new recruits and of those that do there numbers are small so upgrading your existing marines makes sense in that regard.

 

I can see some chapter using it as a progression thing (depending on chapter), a decade as a neophyte than get the black carapace implented to become a an initiate than another century of proven combat ability and you earn the right to go from initiate to primaris.

 

There are plenty of reason why a chapter would prefer to upgrade a existing marine. Not to mention we have as yet not been told if there is any risk in the process of initiate to primaris process.

[Blindhamster]

 

why bother making a regular marine into a primaris when you can make a primaris from a human boy in the same time as you can make a regular marine? (the fact it takes exactly the same amount to make either is written in black and white in the article on creating a space marine

Which article is this, do you have a link to/picture of it?

 

 

it was in last months white dwarf, it was an update to the old article where it shows each step in making a marine, and gives a description for each implant plus a timeline for age of the candidate (even used the same art)

 

I'll take some photos later if people want.

 

 

 

why bother making a regular marine into a primaris when you can make a primaris from a human boy in the same time as you can make a regular marine? (the fact it takes exactly the same amount to make either is written in black and white in the article on creating a space marine)

 

You could say experience, but considering you'd run a (small) risk of killing the marine during the upgrade process and lose that marines impact on any theater of war for that decade, why bother?

 

Same time for a more experienced, tougher, faster stronger version of themselves, I can see why space marines would do it, hell most would volunteer if only to improve their combat abilities.

 

Also do not forget that not every chapter has access to new recruits and of those that do there numbers are small so upgrading your existing marines makes sense in that regard.

 

I can see some chapter using it as a progression thing (depending on chapter), a decade as a neophyte than get the black carapace implented to become a an initiate than another century of proven combat ability and you earn the right to go from initiate to primaris.

 

There are plenty of reason why a chapter would prefer to upgrade a existing marine. Not to mention we have as yet not been told if there is any risk in the process of initiate to primaris process.

 

Idaho was saying he'd seen it takes 10 years to turn an existing marine into a primaris marine. It doesn't take so many years to make a primaris marine from a human candidate.

 

In the case of Blood Angels (and their successors) for example, a human is made into an astartes (minus black carapace) within 1 year.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Robbienw]

 

 

 

why bother making a regular marine into a primaris when you can make a primaris from a human boy in the same time as you can make a regular marine? (the fact it takes exactly the same amount to make either is written in black and white in the article on creating a space marine

Which article is this, do you have a link to/picture of it?

it was in last months white dwarf, it was an update to the old article where it shows each step in making a marine, and gives a description for each implant plus a timeline for age of the candidate (even used the same art)

Ah yes, I know the one. Really it just says at what age implants are inserted, I thought. Not necessarily that the implants mature by that age, some like the black carapace need time to mature I think.

 

So just speculating, but it could be that the effects of the Magnificat amplifying the ossumodula and the biscopea takes additional time to grow the primaris marine to his full bigger size, for example.

 

However if it does mean that the primaris take the exact same time to create/finish growing as normal Marines, then there must be another reason why chapters are still making regular Space Marines at the current point in the timeline.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

 

 

why bother making a regular marine into a primaris when you can make a primaris from a human boy in the same time as you can make a regular marine? (the fact it takes exactly the same amount to make either is written in black and white in the article on creating a space marine

Which article is this, do you have a link to/picture of it?

it was in last months white dwarf, it was an update to the old article where it shows each step in making a marine, and gives a description for each implant plus a timeline for age of the candidate (even used the same art)

Ah yes, I know the one. Really it just says at what age implants are inserted, I thought. Not necessarily that the implants mature by that age, some like the black carapace need time to mature I think.

 

So just speculating, but it could be that the effects of the Magnificat amplifying the ossumodula and the biscopea takes additional time to grow the primaris marine to his full bigger size, for example.

 

However if it does mean that the primaris take the exact same time to create/finish growing as normal Marines, then there must be another reason why chapters are still making regular Space Marines at the current point in the timeline.

I'd guess it may be due to a lack or supply? Growing gene seed with code for the primaris organs will take time and I doubt the chapter would have gotten enough up front to replace every marine.

 

There has been no down sides to primaris in the fluff yet, so it's hard to see reasons for not replacing an entire chapter. There is also the idea that perhaps more regular astartes aren't being made in any large number and that's why most battle companies have a number of primaris squads in them now. With longer serving marines making up the remainder?

[DogWelder]

I suppose we'll get more fluff on this subject from RobMacs new Ultramarine book. It seems to feature Ultramarine Primaris as part of the Chapter.

[Robbienw]

 

 

 

 

 

why bother making a regular marine into a primaris when you can make a primaris from a human boy in the same time as you can make a regular marine? (the fact it takes exactly the same amount to make either is written in black and white in the article on creating a space marine

Which article is this, do you have a link to/picture of it?

it was in last months white dwarf, it was an update to the old article where it shows each step in making a marine, and gives a description for each implant plus a timeline for age of the candidate (even used the same art)

Ah yes, I know the one. Really it just says at what age implants are inserted, I thought. Not necessarily that the implants mature by that age, some like the black carapace need time to mature I think.

 

So just speculating, but it could be that the effects of the Magnificat amplifying the ossumodula and the biscopea takes additional time to grow the primaris marine to his full bigger size, for example.

 

However if it does mean that the primaris take the exact same time to create/finish growing as normal Marines, then there must be another reason why chapters are still making regular Space Marines at the current point in the timeline.

I'd guess it may be due to a lack or supply? Growing gene seed with code for the primaris organs will take time and I doubt the chapter would have gotten enough up front to replace every marine.

You may be on to something there, of course the gene seed is new as well and gene seed takes time to grow additional ones. That might explain why it would take centuries for chapters to build up enough to make all new recruits Primaris versions.

[Blindhamster]

Time will tell.

 

I still expect some kind of flaw to surface with them honestly. Probably about the same time chaos get access to them I suppose.

[Lustrati]

Time will tell.

 

I still expect some kind of flaw to surface with them honestly. Probably about the same time chaos get access to them I suppose.

 

I agree, while the "not enough gene-seed" idea does seem the most plausible (in my chapter that is the reason they are not at full strength and did not get any Primaris marines, there simply was not enough).

 

However this would not be 40k without a downside, if anything I feel they might be more easily converted to chaos, but it would mainly be fluff only although the following scernario would be funny the first time.

 

"Hellblaster overcharges and rolls dice, comes up not blowing up, in enemies shooting phase they shoot at said hellblaster hits etc, rolls save, rolls a 6..... Priamris suffers a heart attack is removed of the board"

[Blindhamster]

 

However this would not be 40k without a downside, if anything I feel they might be more easily converted to chaos

 

I felt like the opposite was actually hinted at in Dark Imperium, apparently their real strength isn't something physical, but its something thats important for the future of the Imperium, I can't think what would be more important than being resistant to the very corruption that is commonplace.

 

Note that the above is not the same as going traitor for more human hubris, which Guilliman implied he expects from absolutely anyone.

[DogWelder]

 

 

However this would not be 40k without a downside, if anything I feel they might be more easily converted to chaos

 

I felt like the opposite was actually hinted at in Dark Imperium, apparently their real strength isn't something physical, but its something thats important for the future of the Imperium, I can't think what would be more important than being resistant to the very corruption that is commonplace.

 

Note that the above is not the same as going traitor for more human hubris, which Guilliman implied he expects from absolutely anyone.

 

 

I think their real strength may be more than them just being Space Marines. Consider this passage:

 

“How are your Primaris brothers faring?’ said Guilliman, returning to matters of war.

 

‘They are a wonder, my lord, and Lord Calgar sends his personal thanks that you provided them to us so quickly. Ultramar is stronger for their presence, in battle and in other ways. Wherever they go, they bring great heart to our warriors. Whether they are Ultramarines, reinforcements for other Chapters or new Primaris foundings, they are your sons at heart. Some of them remember the days when you walked among us – to hear some of their stories is remarkable. Additionally, their presence has helped with several cases of dissension from the planetary commanders of Greater Ultramar. They speak so eloquently of the ancient days, and of the unity of the old Ultramar, that several governments saw that their opposition to reunification was not to the taste of their peoples. Peaceful means do not elude us in all disputed cases.”

 

Excerpt From: Guy Haley. “Dark Imperium.” iBooks. 

 

It seems they have an extremely important role with regards to morale and politics within the Imperium as well.

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

 

However this would not be 40k without a downside, if anything I feel they might be more easily converted to chaos

 

I felt like the opposite was actually hinted at in Dark Imperium, apparently their real strength isn't something physical, but its something thats important for the future of the Imperium, I can't think what would be more important than being resistant to the very corruption that is commonplace.

 

Note that the above is not the same as going traitor for more human hubris, which Guilliman implied he expects from absolutely anyone.

 

 

So, following Blindhamster vision^^ :

 

Primaris are better Astartes, that are by the way also far more resistant to corruption and are equiped with more powerfull weapons and vehicles....so, where is the humanity auto-win button ?  

 

--------------------------------------------

 

Now, i think that the Primaris stuff have been rushed.

 

The whole thing about Primaris being resilient to corruption is wrong. For, if we follow the great lines of the new fluff, Guilliman provided Cawl with data that served in the creation of the Primarchs.....and Cawl created half Legionaries/half Primarchs, Primaris Astartes. No need say that half of the Primarchs fell to corruption and madness, and that Guilliman tremble at the idea of Cawl creating Primaris from the gene-stocks of his fallen brothers, and that he also appears concerned by the genetic deviation of Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

 

I don't buy the story of the "Great Beyond", where Guilliman, Cawl, and their Primaris save the Galaxy against everything, and humanity live happily ever after.

 

The Emperor did not created the Primaris, and i think that it is because they would have been to powerfull. That Guilliman and Cawl, used ancient technology to enhance Legionary Astartes is just the result of childs playing grown up with big daddy work tools. In the end they will do more harm than good.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

 

However this would not be 40k without a downside, if anything I feel they might be more easily converted to chaos

 

I felt like the opposite was actually hinted at in Dark Imperium, apparently their real strength isn't something physical, but its something thats important for the future of the Imperium, I can't think what would be more important than being resistant to the very corruption that is commonplace.

 

Note that the above is not the same as going traitor for more human hubris, which Guilliman implied he expects from absolutely anyone.

 

 

So, following Blindhamster vision^^ :

 

Primaris are better Astartes, that are by the way also far more resistant to corruption and are equiped with more powerfull weapons and vehicles....so, where is the humanity auto-win button ? 

 

--------------------------------------------

 

Now, i think that the Primaris stuff have been rushed.

 

The whole thing about Primaris being resilient to corruption is wrong. For, if we follow the great lines of the new fluff, Guilliman provided Cawl with data that served in the creation of the Primarchs.....and Cawl created half Legionaries/half Primarchs, Primaris Astartes. No need say that half of the Primarchs fell to corruption and madness, and that Guilliman tremble at the idea of Cawl creating Primaris from the gene-stocks of his fallen brothers, and that he also appears concerned by the genetic deviation of Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

 

I don't buy the story of the "Great Beyond", where Guilliman, Cawl, and their Primaris save the Galaxy against everything, and humanity live happily ever after.

 

The Emperor did not created the Primaris, and i think that it is because they would have been to powerfull. That Guilliman and Cawl, used ancient technology to enhance Legionary Astartes is just the result of childs playing grown up with big daddy work tools. In the end they will do more harm than good.

 

 

wow.

 

I didn't say they were better astartes that were far more resistant to corruption.

 

They are physically more resilient and stronger, this is spelled out in the descriptions of their extra organs. No point disputing that. They aren't going to be any more adept with weapons etc than other astartes, they also aren't more mentally adept (though i thought they might have been when they were first shown.

 

I also didn't mention more powerful weapons or vehicles.

 

What i said, was that they are hinted as having some other strength that makes them important for humanities future. And that I can't think what could be more important than being resistant to corruption. But I don't KNOW what it would be. However, I really doubt it's likely that they're more likely to fall to corruption either.

 

I think

 

 

It seems they have an extremely important role with regards to morale and politics within the Imperium as well.

 

Is an excellent other meaning to how they're so important to humanities future - the symbolism they bring, even beyond that of other astartes.

 

 

 

 

as far as Cawl "being like a child" when it comes to playing with the emperors work... A primarch managed to make marine/primarch hybrids in a few weeks or months. And they were shown to be a step up in many ways compared to normal astartes, he did that because he had data from the emperors workshop. The ONLY reason they went bad was because of daemonic corruption planted in the place they were being made by Alpha Legion (Mustache Twirl!!).

 

So, Cawl being able to do something that is almost as good as what a primarch pulled off in weeks/months over the course of 10k years? Yeah I'm absolutely fine with that, seeing as its specifically noted Guilliman gave Cawl the data that was able to be recovered from the emperors workshop. It also states that it's incomplete data and the god maker (what the belisarian furnace is a derivative of) is something Cawl could not completely crack so basically made half of one.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Blindhamster

[tdemayo]

 

I think we also need to bear in mind the rule 101 of 40k geneseed lore. Never fiddle with geneseed... There is not a single case of anyone other than the Emperor doing it without it going wrong somehow. The Raven Guard fiddled with it during the Heresy and a couple of centuries later it degraded severely. The Primaris are hardly going to implode and go extinct, but odds are pretty good on some unexpected flaw cropping up in the not too distant future.

 

Wouldn't be a bad justification for introducing Primaris-sized Chaos SM models.

[Lustrati]

I think, at least from my point of view, is the Primaris require more resources (they have 3 new organs and need new armor/weapons made)  to make than the their older brethren, don't forget the Emperor had to create a template to keep the large Astarte legions active (which was hinted as one of the reasons why so many astartes fell to chaos) the more complicated he made it the harder it would have been for the legions to maintain what little "quality" control they had not to mention the resources required.

basically the normal Astartes were production models, quick and relatively cheap to make, but given chapters are the way things go in the current timeframe and due to degradation they generally are a lot more picky of their candidates and of the gene-seed they use it makes sense that Primaris can be used now despite the resources required as it is more managed on a smaller scale not really possible back in the 30k days.

 

One thing they would bring that  normal astartes wouldn't is hope, humanity was shown they are progressing again instead of "not understood" and primaris came out in huge numbers at a time when the imperium was lets face about to collapse. That hope is a very powerful tool and makes the Primaris all the more valuable, but once again 40k always has 2 sides of the coin and their flaw will come out, stating that though GW could just have a fluff stall and just say "primaris bring hope and have no flaws"

[Blindhamster]

to be fair, they dont NEED to have any more flaws than any other astartes.

The real flaw could simply be the fact that their eventual capture allows Fabius to complete his own dark simulacrum thats probably even more pumped up.

 

i.e. whilst their arrival created hope, it was also the first step toward giving the enemy a far greater weapon.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Stoic Raptor]

 

 

 

The whole thing about Primaris being resilient to corruption is wrong. 

I don't buy the story of the "Great Beyond", where Guilliman, Cawl, and their Primaris save the Galaxy against everything, and humanity live happily ever after.

 

 

"Chaos will someday overrun us," thought Guilliman. "I need to make new soldiers who are stronger, more powerful, and more susceptible to corruption!  It's not enough that I am the most brilliant mind in the Imperium - they don't call me Gullible for nothing!"

 

...or, we could accept that it would be ridiculous to create a purpose-built warrior whose greatest flaw is the thing he's designed to fight - especially given that the most potent mind in all of Humanity had the raw materials designed by a God to work with,

 

As for humanity winning?  That's the whole idea behind everything the Emperor did - why he created the Primarchs and the Legions and the Astronomican.  The whole story is about mankind's struggle to pacify a hostile universe.  Losing doesn't make for a very good ending, unless this is really a samurai movie in disguise.