Grey Knights - a question and where to start?

[Seizeman]

Some of the points people are made here about razorbacks are extremely wrong and misleading, and if you take that advice to decide on your purchases, you are going to have a bad time.

 

Some people are saying razorbacks are expensive, wich is not true at all. They are one of the best andcheapest units in the game, so much that many armies use them just as shooting platforms, ignoring their transport capacity.

 

Also, they say being able to deep strike your units is a reason for not needing them, when it's the opposite. Because you want to deep strike, you need units on the table. Before your deep striking units arrive, your army will be smaller than usual, so those units will be more vulnerable than usual. Because of that, you need those units to be relatively durable, mobile sothey can join the rest of the army on time (and take objectives) and have some anti-infantry firepower to clear your opponent's anti-deepstrike bubble (or your reserve units won't be able to do anything). Razorbacks (and storm ravens) fullfill the three criteria.

 

Be sure that you won't be able to field a competitive army unless you have razorbacks or stormravens. Also, you don't need so many NDKs. Two of them is plenty (although, once you have everything else, a third one won't hurt either).

[Gerhard]

Thanks for that advice. I love Razorbacks, a lot, and in my starting army of 2000 points I added one with Assault Cannon, and a Stormraven. The list I intend to start with is inspired on two forum posts in the list section and is as following:

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [108 PL, 1989pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 285pts]: 1: Daemon Slayer, Domina Liber Demonica, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord

 

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 285pts]: Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword

 

Grand Master Voldus [10 PL, 190pts]: Purge Soul, Sanctuary, Vortex of Doom

 

+ Troops +

 

Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]: Astral Aim

. 4x Grey Knight (Falchion): 4x Storm Bolter

. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

 

Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]: Astral Aim

. 4x Grey Knight (Falchion): 4x Storm Bolter

. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

 

Strike Squad [7 PL, 105pts]: Astral Aim

. 4x Grey Knight (Falchion): 4x Storm Bolter

. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

 

+ Elites +

 

Apothecary [5 PL, 103pts]: Hammerhand, Nemesis Daemon Hammer

 

Apothecary [5 PL, 103pts]: Gate of Infinity, Nemesis Daemon Hammer

 

Paladin Squad [19 PL, 301pts]: Gate of Infinity

. Paladin (Daemon Hammer): Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter

. 3x Paladin (Falchions): 3x Storm Bolter

. Paragon: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter

 

+ Flyer +

 

Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 307pts]: 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Two Hurricane Bolters, Typhoon Missile Launcher

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback [5 PL, 100pts]: Twin Assault Cannon

 

++ Total: [108 PL, 1989pts] ++

 

The idea is that two strike squads and Voldus ride the Stormraven, and one strike squad is on the board in the Razorback. The rest Deepstrikes.

 

As for powers.... please ignore those for now. I still need to properly research that. Ive simply added a selection of powers to get rid of the errors in Battlescribe. The same is true for which of the HQs is the warlord, the traits and the relics. Any suggestions are always welcome though!

 

Feel free to comment/suggest on the list. This is how I intended to start out.

 

But yeah.... Razorbacks and Assault Cannons are my absolute favourite unit :).

[Seizeman]

Well, that's the list I posted and what I'm playing right now, except I use the Melta instead of the typhoon on the Stormraven (the -2 ap is so weak).

 

About powers, I distribute them as follows:

 

GMNDK: sanctuary for both.

Strike squads: GoI for all of them.

Paladins: hammerhand.

 

Apothecaries: one with hammerhand, one with sanctuary. The extra hammerhand is useful when paladins die and you want to buff your characters. Sometimes you want to deploy an apothecary before (or split from) the rest of the army, to get some juicy objective, so sanctuary on himself is useful in that situation (also redundancy).

 

Voldus: Vortex, Purge, GoI. Ive tried giving him astral aim but it just is not very useful, and having the exra redundancy on GoI is very useful, specially mid-late game when strikes are either dead or far from the main force grabbing objectives/killing isolated units.

 

Side note about relics. Not only HQs can use them, but any character, so give one of your apothecaries the 4d hammer or the cuirass.

[duz_]

My guard matched up against a Storm Raven GK list last night that thing was tough and it destroyed my Valkyrie :( (more poor rolling certainly didn't help!)
A flying Land Raider is always handy! ;)

[Gerhard]

Well, that's the list I posted and what I'm playing right now, except I use the Melta instead of the typhoon on the Stormraven (the -2 ap is so weak).

 

About powers, I distribute them as follows:

 

GMNDK: sanctuary for both.

Strike squads: GoI for all of them.

Paladins: hammerhand.

 

Apothecaries: one with hammerhand, one with sanctuary. The extra hammerhand is useful when paladins die and you want to buff your characters. Sometimes you want to deploy an apothecary before (or split from) the rest of the army, to get some juicy objective, so sanctuary on himself is useful in that situation (also redundancy).

 

Voldus: Vortex, Purge, GoI. Ive tried giving him astral aim but it just is not very useful, and having the exra redundancy on GoI is very useful, specially mid-late game when strikes are either dead or far from the main force grabbing objectives/killing isolated units.

 

Side note about relics. Not only HQs can use them, but any character, so give one of your apothecaries the 4d hammer or the cuirass.

 

Thanks for those suggestions!

[Danarc]

I agree about the suggested psychic powers change.

But I can't understand why 2 apotecharys. The same unit can receive only 1 nartechum bonus. And that unit is pally only. GMDK are veichle and can't be targetted by apo. Strike squad are only 5 end it isn't necessary use all that point to save them. It is better buy more of them instead.

I suggest to take the ancient that is a huge boost for pally and GMDK.

 

Edit: put voldus (I prefere draigo but it is more expansive) and the three elites in the vanguard detachment for +1 CP.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Danarc

[skarn]

Would it be worth dumping an apothecary and taking 2 x 3 man pally units instead of the 5 man?

[Seizeman]

How is the ancient a boost for GMNDKs? Ancients' aura only works on infantry.

 

And no, it's not a huge boost to paladins. You are getting 5 extra attacks, 2 of them with hammers, and that's assuming they are in range of his aura, which is not always easy to accomplish. An apothecary gives you 4 hammer attacks with WS2+, which is a lot better, plus he can use the relic hammer. All of this for 103 points instead of 140, plus you get an extra healing on top of that.

 

Apothecary does not work only on paladins. It also works on himself, the second apothecary and voldus (or a strike squad, but that's not that useful).

 

I think he knows about the vanguard detachment, it is just a limitation of battlescribe.

 

Why dump the apothecary for one more paladin? The apothecary is just a better paragon, no point in downgrading him.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Seizeman

[Gerhard]

Thanks for the feedback regarding the Detachments. Battlescribe is a bit annoying when it comes to that but I do appreciate the suggestion. That's indeed what I intended to do. 

 

As for the Paladin vs Ancient, it is indeed as Seizeman said. Apart from being a matter of points which I can't spare it's an extra heal and good stats for 103 points which fits in the list

Edited September 1, 2017 by Gerhard

[Gerhard]

So, now that the first models are in the basecoat... I've started thinking about bases.

 

I'm looking for some inspiration. The thought I have in mind is to make some sort of Daemon world base to fit the Grey Knight theme with a color that really stands out. At first thought I was thinking about a grey-ish/brownish base with bright purple goo around rocks or ground. Has anyone done anything like that? If so, how did you do it? Any pictures? Would it fit?

[Danarc]

True, you are right, ancient doeasn't work on GMDK.

 

Nevertheless i still believe that it is almost mandatory, and better than a second apothecary. First of all, hammer hits with -1 and the relic hammer still has the -1 and the ancient has the same WS, wounds and Atk as apo. He can't use the hammer but with left falchion hits at 2+.

According to this, The difference is related to weapon, the boost of attacks (5 as you said, 4 for pally and 1 for himself) and Discipline that it is useful not only for test (not really useful in 5 or less men units) but also for purge soul. On the other hand it is more expensive.

So the choice between apo and pally ancient depends to the list you want to build. But in my opinion if you already have an apo in the list the other slot is absolutely for ancient.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Danarc

[Gerhard]

Since I have both options to model (I purchased two boxes of Paladins), I'm just going to playtest both :). I can see the added value of both so I'll let my meta decide what my favourite "default choice" will be :).

 

I do really appreciate the advice & discussion. Being new to Grey Knights it is cool to see different angles on the same Chapter, so thanks for that!

[Gerhard]

Just finished modelling 10 Strike Squad members, all with double Falchions. Bit difficult to get a proper pose given the fact that I had to fiddle with arms meant for different weapons but overall I am happy with the result.

 

It did get me thinking though: how many attacks does that give them? It says they get an additional attack when fighting with two Falchions, but does that mean 2 attacks, or because they have two weapons and an additional attack: 3 attacks? Never really had units equipped with two melee weapons so I realized I don't know the ropes on this one.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Gerhard

[Plasmablasts]

I think it's two attacks: there isn't a universal rule in 8th edition giving an extra attack from a second melee weapon (or pistol), so you just benefit from that weapon's specific rules.

[Adeptus]

Yep, there's no blanket "+1 for two close combat weapons" rule anymore, so it's just 1 base + 1 for the Falchions special rule.

[Gerhard]

Alright, cheers!

 

Time to practise my wet-blending skills tonight to make 30 Force Weapons....

[Aethernitas]

I agree about the suggested psychic powers change.

But I can't understand why 2 apotecharys. The same unit can receive only 1 nartechum bonus. And that unit is pally only. GMDK are veichle and can't be targetted by apo. Strike squad are only 5 end it isn't necessary use all that point to save them. It is better buy more of them instead.

I suggest to take the ancient that is a huge boost for pally and GMDK.

 

Edit: put voldus (I prefere draigo but it is more expansive) and the three elites in the vanguard detachment for +1 CP.

I dunno why but Seizeman seems to have a personal vendetta against Ancients. The Ancient is a great power multiplier for any force even if you just reach one unit with the bonus. The more the merrier ofc.

[Adeptus]

Not to mention they look rad! Those banners are gorgeous!

[the jeske]

 

I dunno why but Seizeman seems to have a personal vendetta against Ancients. The Ancient is a great power multiplier for any force even if you just reach one unit with the bonus. The more the merrier ofc.

 

The reaching is a problem though. The apothecary works always, as there will always be shoting. And if an apothecary bites to bullet before getting to heal anything, then an ancient in the same situation would be dead too. Ancients require "interactive" game play from the opponent and nothing going wrong. Apothercaries requier being on the table to work. Huge difference.

 

I dunno why but Seizeman seems to have a personal vendetta against Ancients. The Ancient is a great power multiplier for any force even if you just reach one unit with the bonus. The more the merrier ofc.

 

The reaching is a problem though. The apothecary works always, as there will always be shoting. And if an apothecary bites to bullet before getting to heal anything, then an ancient in the same situation would be dead too. Ancients require "interactive" game play from the opponent and nothing going wrong. Apothercaries requier being on the table to work. Huge difference.

[Aethernitas]

The reaching is a problem though. The apothecary works always, as there will always be shoting. And if an apothecary bites to bullet before getting to heal anything, then an ancient in the same situation would be dead too. Ancients require "interactive" game play from the opponent and nothing going wrong. Apothercaries requier being on the table to work. Huge difference.

 

I'll just copy/paste my response from the other thread:

 

With 40mm bases you can reach back over 5" in cc while you still get to hit with all of your guys so if you don't charge the full 12" and your Ancient is deepstriking/beeing transported with your Terminators/Paladins you always get the bonus attack. If not thats on you for bad positioning. Only time you might loose a few attacks is with PAGK when charging extreme distances because of the smaller bases. In those cases you have to daisychain one modell to reach the buff still.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah I have to say when the Index first dropped I was all psyched about Ancients and stacking them with Grandmaster aura near Paladins. 

 

After watching other armies try and keep their character auras in range of their melee threats, its quite hard to maintain formation once charges go off. You're typically sitting the Ancient or Apothecary behind your Paladins, so by definition he can't just charge in to tank Overwatch+stay in range.

 

I don't really rate Apothecaries either. They're a fun choice, but more Paladins is IMO a better investment. More Paladins mean bigger squads (so more efficient use of buffs like 'Sanctuary' or 'Hammerhand'), or more squads (which means more threat and redundancy). Apothecary at least is cheap, Ancients just cost too much. 

 

Razorbacks are okay, but they're just gunboats at the end of the day. I don't think they're 100% required for a competitive build, you can take Strikes for 5pts more and leverage more of our faction benefits and abilities. My local scene is a bit mixed, I feel like assault cannons would end up being a bit too niche. 

[Adeptus]

Apothecaries are pretty boss. Point for point they're more efficient then Paladins since they have WS2+ and can heal lost wounds.

 

Ancients definitely have their place too though, depending on how you build and play your army.

[Seizeman]

In fact, I'm testing some lists with only apothecaries and no paladins, and so far they are performing amazingly.

 

The problem with paladins is every guy after the paragon lowers the efficiency of the unit. When comparing the paragon to the apothecary, the paragon comes ahead, but when you compare the apothecary with the first paladin with a hammer, the difference is inmense. Your are paying 35 more points for the apothecary, but he deals about 80% more damage and has 2 extra wounds plus a self-heal and an extra smite, although he loses the bolter (but remember they still have grenades, which is easy to forget). 

 

Just compare a 3-man paladin squad with 2 hammers (192 points) with a 2 apothecary "squad" (206 points). On one side you have 8 WS2+ hammer attacks, and on another 6 hammer attacks (half of them WS3+) and 4 falchion attacks, which makes the apothecaries better even against infantry. Paladins total 9 wounds, while apothecaries total 10 wounds, plus they have a self heal and an extra psychic power to cast. You have 2 grenades instead of 3 bolters, but that's not a big deal (considering you get the extra smite).

 

You'd think they are more vulnerable, being a single model, but in practice it is not the case. While paladins get decimated by heavy weapons, apothecaries just can't be targeted in most cases because of their character status. With GMNDKs or Draigo (specially with heed the prognosticars) in front of them, stormraven positioning and units in combat it's very hard to shoot at them. Even if some heavy weapons get to shoot them, they are not an amazing target, as they are not that easy to kill, specially if you give on of them the cuirass of sacrifice, and if they survive, they will just heal back on your turn. In one of my recent games, 2 apothecaries and Draigo took about 11 wounds total during the game, and they all were at full health by the end of it.

 

Against melee, they are a lot more fearsome than paladins. Because of their size and heroic interventions, the enemy is forced to charge as many as you want if you keep them together, which is a lot harder to do with paladins. Furthermore, once the opponent is locked with them, he has to be very careful about how he wants to distribute his attacks, as too many on one would result in overkill and lost damage, but too few could leave them alive, which would be disastrous not only because they would be able to hit back but also heal themselves. Of course, if one of them dies, you have the all-powerful Only in death... stratagem (best stratagem on the codex by far) for a good amount of extra damage, which is unusable on paladins.

 

They also fill elite slots for the vanguard detachment very easily, which is a small bonus. I've been using 2 of them with Draigo in a storm raven (along a 5-man strike squad) for the guaranteed charge (in a 1850 points list because of an upcoming tournament) and they've been ridiculously good. It will need some more testing, but it is very possible that Strikes and GMNDKs with razorbacks/stormravens and characters is the way to go.

[Soder]

How would you guys equip apothecaries if no extra hammers are available and you're stuck wysiwyg? I could use the soul glaive on one, but what would you suggest for others? Sword, halberd or warding staff? Probably situational?..

[duz_]

Downside to multiple apothecaries though is that if one dies you can't bring them back to life.

Apothecary + paladins you can as long as 1 of the paladins is still alive.

 

I am intrigued by this multi apothecary approach though