Grey Knights - a question and where to start?

[Waking Dreamer]

How would you guys equip apothecaries if no extra hammers are available and you're stuck wysiwyg? I could use the soul glaive on one, but what would you suggest for others? Sword, halberd or warding staff? Probably situational?..

I think crunch-wise Halberds preform about the same as Warding Staves but the latter gives your apothecary 4++ in combat.

[Valerian]

How would you guys equip apothecaries if no extra hammers are available and you're stuck wysiwyg? I could use the soul glaive on one, but what would you suggest for others? Sword, halberd or warding staff? Probably situational?..

Just spend a couple bucks to get a Hammer from an eBay bits site. You definitely want that hammer on those WS2+ characters. The other options just don't come close.

[Adeptus]

To be honest I actually feel like GW made an error in judgement giving the Apothecary WS2+. It feels a bit much for what is essentially a combat medic, and makes them very attractive units compared to the Ancient or even Paladins. At WS3+, they'd be much more in line with our other choices.

[Soder]

Thanks guys. I own 4 terminator hammers so I'll def magnetize them all as well just incase but thanks Val, I'll check out eBay again. Problem is Canadian ebay usually sucks, lol. Not as many people ship out here and if they do I've seen some hammers cost $10+ not including shipping. I may just have to suck it up and pay! Lol

 

I've got a box of TDA that was meant to be terminators (for 7th edition) that I never got around to making but now I'm gonna turn them into 2 Apothecaries, 2 Ancients and a Brother Captain. Outcome is still up for debate tho

Edited September 7, 2017 by Soder

[Gerhard]

Nice discussions in here, thanks, that has given me a lot to think about.

 

Though, Apothecaries are not necessarily just 'combat medics' though when it comes to the Lore, right? I always assumed and thought they were special Space Marine officers who are held in the highest of honor due to their multi-role on the battlefield: a fierce warrior, combined with the preservation of the gene-seed of the Chapter. Because they are more vulnerable on the field when taking care of their Brothers, they need to be exceptionally skilled to hold their own in such situations. I rather like how strong they are, it fits the lore in my opinion. 

 

As for my starting situation, I'm going to experiment with two as originally posted in my list. When playing with my other army, keeping my entire melee squads in the respective officer bubbles is extremely annoying and difficult, and I've lost a battle or two when trying to maximize the bubble-use at the expense of attacking the wrong targets. I foresee something similar could occur if I try to combine an Ancient with a GMNDK. Not saying I'm not going to try out an Ancient though, I definitely will, but for now I'm leaning towards the double apothecary. 

 

Whilst adding more is definitely an option for when I go to a Tournament in the local GW or something, I'm pretty sure my casual home-meta will start objecting if I suddenly bring five apothecaries just because I want to roll them off the table . 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Gerhard

[Seizeman]

Well, an apothecary is a Paladin to begin with, and one of the best ones, so it should not be worse than a paragon. As a rule, Space marine characters have a minimum of 4 wounds, and terminator armour gives one extra, so 5 is correct.

 

Ultimately, it's not that the apothecary is too good for his points, is that every other character choice is severely overpriced.

 

GW is having problems with the cost of characters. The character rules makes so a "standard" costing based on their stats doesn't work. Weak characters are underpriced while tough characters are overpriced. For example, an Imperial guard comissar or a commander is so cheap because in theory is weak and fragile, but in practice they are inmortal. 

 

The op top lists that are winning right now are heavily dependant on spaming undercosted characters (and conscripts).

 

And yes, you must give a hammer to the apotheary, otherwise he's not good.

[skarn]

Armies consisting of the lost-in-the-warp supreme master, 4 or 5 medics, 2 of the 8 grand masters in baby carriers, a gunboat and 3 5 man strike squads are so horrendously unfluffy haha.

[Godeskian]

Remind me to remodel my apothecary. He's currently got a halberd, like all my older ones do

 

[Seizeman]

Well, in a time where primarchs are flying around on the battlefield, evertything is fluffy. In fact NDKs were designed to fight against that kind of threat, and several GM gathering to fight something like Mortarion is perfectly justified. Against a threat like that, it would not be unthinkable for 3 or 4 brotherhoods to act together. After all, there's only about a thousand GK.

 

Anyway, every codex has unfluffy stuff for the sake of gameplay. In fact, the existence of power armored grey knights is unfluffy (except for interceptors). Nowhere in the lore is justified why some grey knights don't use terminator armor, when it is clearly stated they have enough of them for the entire chapter. 

 

Also, why no purifiers in terminator armor? One would think that the purest and most valuable individuals in the chapter should be well protected, specially when their cleansing flaming looks perfect for closed spaces, which is what terminator armour was designed for in the first place.

[Godeskian]

I'm actually debating the value of attaching Primaris legs to GK torsos arms and heads to create larger GK troops. Obviously they'll still function as PAGK's, but they won't look quite like they got the rubbish armour

[Shagah]

Thanks guys. I own 4 terminator hammers so I'll def magnetize them all as well just incase but thanks Val, I'll check out eBay again. Problem is Canadian ebay usually sucks, lol. Not as many people ship out here and if they do I've seen some hammers cost $10+ not including shipping. I may just have to suck it up and pay! Lol

 

I've got a box of TDA that was meant to be terminators (for 7th edition) that I never got around to making but now I'm gonna turn them into 2 Apothecaries, 2 Ancients and a Brother Captain. Outcome is still up for debate tho

 

http://maxmini.eu/conversion-bits/melee-weapons-shields/mechanical-hammers-MK2-bits

 

I use these, mostly cause of price.

 

They also do cloaks suitable for TDA that I use to decorate character models

[Gentlemanloser]

Do the cloaks fit pagk?

[Prot]

To be honest I actually feel like GW made an error in judgement giving the Apothecary WS2+. It feels a bit much for what is essentially a combat medic, and makes them very attractive units compared to the Ancient or even Paladins. At WS3+, they'd be much more in line with our other choices.

The shootier Ork units hit on 3's in close combat. So even though their specialization lays outside of close combat, the weapon skill pays homage to the race's affection for brawling. I'd like to think an honoured Grey Knight Apothecary would have the prowess in close quarters second only to a few.

 

He might be an Apothecary but let's put it this way..... I'd rather have him defend me against an unending wave of Daemons, than ask him to remove my appendix! ;)

Edited September 9, 2017 by Prot

[Plasmablasts]

 

To be honest I actually feel like GW made an error in judgement giving the Apothecary WS2+. It feels a bit much for what is essentially a combat medic, and makes them very attractive units compared to the Ancient or even Paladins. At WS3+, they'd be much more in line with our other choices.

The shootier Ork units hit on 3's in close combat. So even though their specialization lays outside of close combat, the weapon skill pays homage to the race's affection for brawling. I'd like to think an honoured Grey Knight Apothecary would have the prowess in close quarters second only to a few.

 

He might be an Apothecary but let's put it this way..... I'd rather have him defend me against an unending wave of Daemons, than ask him to remove my appendix! ;)

"I'll just check your reflexes..." (daintily swings Nemesis Daemonhammer towards patient's knee).

 

Actually, armour-clad warrior monk, favouring blunt weaponry, banishing supernatural threats and healing comrades - the GK apothecary seems like the Dungeons and Dragons cleric in space.

[Shagah]

Do the cloaks fit pagk?

 

Have not tried.  They fit on the rear vent edges on TDA so may be too wide.

Cannot check at the moment either as I am on the other side of the world from my models for the next few weeks!

[Adeptus]

I believe I've seen them used on power armoured models, and if they're a bit wide it's nothing a bit of hot water or a hairdryer won't fix.

 

To be honest I actually feel like GW made an error in judgement giving the Apothecary WS2+. It feels a bit much for what is essentially a combat medic, and makes them very attractive units compared to the Ancient or even Paladins. At WS3+, they'd be much more in line with our other choices.

The shootier Ork units hit on 3's in close combat. So even though their specialization lays outside of close combat, the weapon skill pays homage to the race's affection for brawling. I'd like to think an honoured Grey Knight Apothecary would have the prowess in close quarters second only to a few.

He might be an Apothecary but let's put it this way..... I'd rather have him defend me against an unending wave of Daemons, than ask him to remove my appendix!

 

 

Totally get where you're coming from, and a case can certainly be made for having him be WS 2+, but I think an equally strong case can be made for him to be WS3+ and at 3+ he wouldn't be the clearly superior choice to the Ancient that he currently is.

[Seizeman]

If the apothecary had WS 3+ that would not make the ancient better, but just make both unplayable. They have to buff the ancient by making it cheaper, as with the rest of our HQ.

[Aethernitas]

If the apothecary had WS 3+ that would not make the ancient better, but just make both unplayable. They have to buff the ancient by making it cheaper, as with the rest of our HQ.

Edited

 

I think the Apothecary and the Ancient are both perfectly fine models . So are Strikes, Paladins, GMs, Dreadnoughts, Stormravens, NDKs, our new flyers as well as Land Raiders and the Dedicated Transports. Yes, some units might look better mathhammering them in whiteroom discussions, but there are thing that are very hard to factor into those equations like the 'rule of one' heavily favoring bigger units when it comes to buffing, the 'objective secured' rule and it's benefits or actual positioning on the table.

 

The Brother-Captain feels kinda ok on their own but suffers from the fact that Purifiers are not very good right now. It feels like they wanted to give us a more smite-centered way to play GKs - kinda advancing behind a bow-wave of psychic flames. Terminators seem ok in a vaccuum but in comparison with the Paladins they just look bad even with Obsec. Generally I would say a lot of our HQ characters need work. The Brotherhood-Captain, the Bro-Champ, the Techmarine and the Chaplain could all use a lil point tinkering or some rule finetuning.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Valerian

[Adeptus]

If the apothecary had WS 3+ that would not make the ancient better, but just make both unplayable. They have to buff the ancient by making it cheaper, as with the rest of our HQ.

I don't think the Ancient is bad. I think he's quite good. But the Apothecary is just better.