Heldrakes in 8th

[HeresyBeliever]

How is everyone finding them in the new edition?

 

I plan to try later, I see the benefits of moving how you want and up to 30 inchs but i feel the weapons are a bit lack luster for the points. 

 

I think the Claws should be -2 ap and Damage 2 at first look but I will see how it fares later today. 

 

 

 

[oreaper84]

So i love my Drake, we are buds....but its kind of a one-way friendship. He is very situational for use. He will absolute murder scouts, ratlings, and most Dev squads. He has the speed to get there. I find reaction to his speed to be the best benefit. Opponents tend to tighten up their formation, and only commit strong to flanks. I used to use him as an Alpha strike unit, even tried 2 of them....unless your using him to soak up overwatch....dont. He is way better at clean up duty for those stray units your opponent "thinks" they are hiding. For the price of a predator though i wish he did more. I basically bring him to fill gaps using his speed with moderate efficiency.

[Mekhitar]

I'm very unimpressed with his damage (wish they could have kept his claws at the AP2 equivalent - something might actually stick then). He might scratch off a few wounds but he is no longer the killer he once was.

 

That being said, he is great at harassment and locking an enemy unit from shooting - just don't be fooled by his "+1 to hit fly" - he wants to lock something in that can't just zoom off and keep shooting. It's also hilarious the amount of firepower the enemy will pour into getting him out of their face - he's the best distraction unit I have fielded yet, and a good way to make sure your rhinos safely deliver their cargo.

[Mekhitar]

I'm very unimpressed with his damage (wish they could have kept his claws at the AP2 equivalent - something might actually stick then). He might scratch off a few wounds but he is no longer the killer he once was.

 

That being said, he is great at harassment and locking an enemy unit from shooting - just don't be fooled by his "+1 to hit fly" - he wants to lock something in that can't just zoom off and keep shooting. It's also hilarious the amount of firepower the enemy will pour into getting him out of their face - he's the best distraction unit I have fielded yet, and a good way to make sure your rhinos safely deliver their cargo.

[Commissar K.]

He's a nice eyepoker. Wont win you the game, can give you a good distraction in the early game so you might snowball.

The fact that hes 30 points cheaper now is great. As mentioned he will not kill much but he's also jsut 168 points with a Baleflamer which makes it budget enough to not have this be a downside anymore. A small squad of well kit out Havocs is only 3 points cheaper after all.

[WarriorFish]

This sounds quite good as a first wave to disrupt your opponent in a list intending to close, Baleflamer would be useful with the speed then go and charge the unit your opponent wants shooting. With the Fly keyword you don't even need to be stuck in combat, you could peel off to flame something (and tie up something else) as another unit piles in for example. I've been increasingly interested in getting one and this might be the excuse I need (at some point)

[Commissar K.]

Yeah it practicle only has two types of targets it still doesn't want to mess with and those are typically Terminator equivelants and Dreadnought/Monster equivelants.

The Heldrake just chews very slowely but competent things with S8+ and multiwound melee damage can mess it up really quick. Luckily though it's otherwise good to use against practically every type of non heavy hitting Infantry and other Vehicles. I'm just really happy that due to it's cost it also pretty much represents what you expect from it. 

The speed and flamer are it's biggest assets and it's gnarly to remove aswell, if you use this to your advantage you should be good. 

[MyD4rkPassenger]

Last game I played was against mechanicum, and I took two drakes and a maulerfiend to screen for my TS.  My opponent directed an obscene amount of firepower at those three units, while my defiler, helbrute, and infantry advanced unscathed.  Not to mention they are annoying to put down, my opponent didn't kill one by the time we called it.

[Sception]

he's also jsut 168 points with a Baleflamer

185, actually. Its claws aren't free.

[Zodd1888]

Feels too niche to me. It serves as an expensive scouting unit and doesn't do a lot of damage. That said, I do use it to shut down heavy tank fire by multi-assault when I can.

 

A little bit better attack on claws or defence with a hard to hit rule and I think it'd be pretty decent. I'll keep plugging away though because I love turkey.

[Lagrath]

I only use them sometimes, and only because I use them as Nurgle Daemons with Epidemius.

[Azekai]

I only use them sometimes, and only because I use them as Nurgle Daemons with Epidemius.

How has that worked out for you? I have been tempted to try Epi with my Decimator and foetid drones.

[Lagrath]

 

I only use them sometimes, and only because I use them as Nurgle Daemons with Epidemius.

How has that worked out for you? I have been tempted to try Epi with my Decimator and foetid drones.

 

 

It's really fun no matter what units you use, but you need to commit to using only Nurgle Daemon units.  Lack of mobility and shooting are painful.  Daemon Princes are great if you keep them somewhat safe the first few turns.  Mass nurglings are great for tying up units, preventing shots at daemon princes, and buying time for other stuff to move up the field.  Slow plague bearers bubble wrapping a herald and epidemius are annoying, but they get beefy by the time you hit max tally.

[Gothical]

I've been wondering about the Heldrake too, was even going to post a thread about it this evening *grumble*.

 

What is the best gun for the drake to take? I prefer the look of the Hades, and S8 D2 make it very attractive against vehicles (when the Baleflamer will mostly be wounding on 5s instead of 3s), but being a Heavy weapon on a BS4+ platform that will probably try to shoot Supersonic models at some point? That's Ork (or worse) level accuracy on an expensive gun. Thus I assume the Baleflamer is best, despite its random number of shots for such a pricey gun, you can at least hit the targets you want to hurt.

 

It strikes me that the claws are the primary weapon, particularly against Flying units for the bonus to hit, as although the Heldrake has a degrading profile it is pretty durable with its invulnerable save and regenerating a wound each turn.

 

The main thing, which I did not pick up on at first, is that the Heldrake doesn't have a minimum move distance, unlike other aircraft (also doesn't force -1 To Hit as a trade-off), so it potentially can sit still and shoot with the Hades if moving aggressively is a bad idea; more importantly it is much easier to engineer charges and use the Baleflamer more effectively when you can freely pivot on the spot and move only the necessary distance to get your target. Using this manoeuvrability in combination with its speed should give you plenty of options on the table.

[Azekai]

I would not use the Hades even if it were free. Its wild inaccuracy when moving is at odds with the primary role of the heldrake, I.E, hyper mobile daemon engine that shoots/assaults/contests vulnerable targets with relative impunity. If I wanted high-strength long-range guns I would use hellforged contemptors and those suckers hit on a 2+. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Azekai

[Sception]

I like the chasis, and the concept of making it less a gunship and more a cyber dragon, but it is let down by its offence. The claws aren't damaging enough, and it doesn't make enough attacks either in melee or at range to really live up to the feel of the model. It's ok for hunting small outlying units or tying up an unscreened ranged unit, but mostly its a distraction. Not a terrible one, its usable, just feels a little... underwhelming in practice.

[Gothical]

I would not use the Hades even if it were free. Its wild inaccuracy when moving is at odds with the primary role of the heldrake, I.E, hyper mobile daemon engine that shoots/assaults/contests vulnerable targets with relative impunity. If I wanted high-strength long-range guns I would use hellforged contemptors and those suckers hit on a 2+. 

 

I agree. There is the Blasphemous Machines stratagem, but even then you're hitting on 4s. You could stack Daemonforge for re-rolls too, but that's 2CP on a fairly mediocre platform (better to use the former on Predators/Helbrutes, the latter on Forge-/Mauler-fiends).

 

I like the chasis, and the concept of making it less a gunship and more a cyber dragon, but it is let down by its offence. The claws aren't damaging enough, and it doesn't make enough attacks either in melee or at range to really live up to the feel of the model. It's ok for hunting small outlying units or tying up an unscreened ranged unit, but mostly its a distraction. Not a terrible one, its usable, just feels a little... underwhelming in practice.

 

It feels more like a skirmisher/bully than cyber-dragon, but the Claws seem pretty good to me - 4x S7 AP-1 D:D3 attacks is likely to do an acceptable amount of damage, and there's probably another 2 (up to 12 but so unlikely) damage from the Flamer. It does feel like it was costed based on its potential rather than its typical performance, because it can to 24 damage to a vehicle in a single turn (on a platform that can almost freely get to any target), which is very impressive but just so incredibly unlikely.

[Mekhitar]

I'd be a lot happier with it if the claws did a flat 2D, to be honest.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

The Hades is OK if you're going to fire once at a ground target with Daemonforge and then charge. On average, without DF, it will kill one less Space Marine than the Baleflamer will, though the Baleflamer has higher potential (D6 shots is very important for Command Reroll) while the Hades has range. The advantage of range on that platform is debatable. Hades saves 5pts and some people like the look.

 

Either way, both are mostly a prelude to charging things and being annoying.

Edited August 24, 2017 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Sception]

Honestly, neither gun kills much of anything. Again, the offense on a drake is rather lackluster.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Honestly, neither gun kills much of anything. Again, the offense on a drake is rather lackluster.

Yep.

 

That's why I said both guns just exist as a prelude to charging.

[Fhanados]

I've found my Baleflamer Heldrake good at zipping around and putting some hurt on things like Devastators, heavy weapons teams and the like. Low model count stuff that sits in a corner and shoots. His combat ability is next to nothing, but it is useful to charge something and force the opponent to make a decision whether to retreat or not. Overall though I found it hasn't really done a whole lot. It's just kind of a thorn in the enemy's side but it's either killed off fairly quickly, or they realise it's not actually that dangerous and ignore it.

 

Maybe if I had 2, or something else fast to zoom around with it then maybe it would be more worthwhile, but for the meantime he's getting dropped in favour of Bloat Drones.

[adreal]

I love my heldrake, yes it's not a huge damage dealer, but it is a turn 1 threat, and hard to put down, so will take alot of fire power. Mine usually gives up first blood, but it gives me a turn without the rest of my stuff getting shot up, which is really good

 

And it got cheaper, which is amazing

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah I've tried the drake twice and both times my opponent got really hung up on trying to kill the drake for awhile, even though it doesn't do much damage. Simply the fact that you can fly up the board 30" then lock something in combat is a great distraction for a lot of opponents. 

 

That being said, as others have mentioned I wish it would do more damage. The baleflamer is alright as a weapon that at least won't miss most of the time like the hades autocannon, but it's a far cry from last edition where it would just easily take out +3 armor units. Mainly though I just wish the heldrake really could be a flier hunter that would just swoop down and destroy other fliers, and for that it would need more attacks and/or damage. I tried going after a vendetta with a heldrake, barely scratched it even with the drake's full attacks. 

[HeresyBeliever]

So My experiences from yesterdays game and the first time using a heldrake. 

 

Pros (always start with the Pros)

1 - First turn threat

2 - Ultra mobile possibly the best in the game. When you need to get that objective for a VP this is what you want.

3 - Fire magnet (Against those who have not played against them)

4 - 5+ invol save I love a good 5+ invol

 

Con 

1 - Damage output Flamer is ok against infantry and that's about it. 

2 - Despite point drop expensive for the damage output. 

3 - A bitch to paint

4 - Not enough attacks and AP value on the claws. 6/5/4 attacks with -2 AP and I think the damage output would be acceptable 

 

This has all been said by others now as well and after my game I am in agreement. 

I am going to continue to use one over the next few games just to try and make the most of the positives.