Heldrakes in 8th

[Mekhitar]

HeresyBeliever, one thing about your "pro" lost... the drake is a flyer in the force org chart, which means as per the FAQ it can't capture objectives anymore. :(

[HeresyBeliever]

HeresyBeliever, one thing about your "pro" lost... the drake is a flyer in the force org chart, which means as per the FAQ it can't capture objectives anymore.

Happy to be wrong here but the FAQ doesn't state that, unless i have missed it. 

 

It states that if you only have flyers left then you lose. If I have other units on the table the flyer can hold an objective.

 

If a Troops choice is next to the objective as well then they have control of the objective over the flyer 

[Sception]

That's the case for the moment, the change with fliers not counting for objectives hasn't been made official yet, but we already know it's coming with the first Chapter Approved book later this year.  I'd imagine some venues are already using the rule.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/09/new-matched-play-rules-in-chapter-approved-aug-9gw-homepage-post-1/

[Panzer]

Yeah it's coming.

What's funny is that they can't even give a good reason for it. We all know it's just for balance reasons but they try to give fluff reasons (like jets can't open crates and whatnot) while ignoring that there are non-flyer units which would have similar limitations fluff-wise (tanks for example....or T'au Drones...or Kroot hounds. The list goes on). :D

[HeresyBeliever]

That sucks! Back to the box the Heldrake will go I expect

[Mekhitar]

Ah, you guys are right. My friends and I just adopted the Chapter Approved stuff that was revealed immediately (making my drake sad).

[Khornestar]

Meh, turn 1 charges are all I need from them. Baleflamer is icing on the cake.

[Azekai]

Yeah it's coming.

What's funny is that they can't even give a good reason for it. We all know it's just for balance reasons but they try to give fluff reasons (like jets can't open crates and whatnot) while ignoring that there are non-flyer units which would have similar limitations fluff-wise (tanks for example....or T'au Drones...or Kroot hounds. The list goes on).

You are coming at it from the wrong angle. It isn't that 'helicopters and possessed robo dragons can't open boxes.' Boots on the ground matter, and air superiority, while important, doesn't actually let you hold ground, or even really deny it for that matter. The Luftwaffe ruled the skies above Britain, and Hitler thought that was enough (spoilers, it wasn't). I am not going to get into current affairs, but suffice to say, you can bomb the everloving crap out of the enemy and you still may not secure an area. Fliers are good for causing widespread destruction, but to actually make sure the enemy is totally rooted out and control remains in your hands long-term, you are going to want infantry.

 

This is not exactly 100% true in all cases, but it is true enough to be generally applicable, especially in our space man game where we seem to be fighting WW1-WW2 style battles with lasers.

[Panzer]

 

Yeah it's coming.

What's funny is that they can't even give a good reason for it. We all know it's just for balance reasons but they try to give fluff reasons (like jets can't open crates and whatnot) while ignoring that there are non-flyer units which would have similar limitations fluff-wise (tanks for example....or T'au Drones...or Kroot hounds. The list goes on).

You are coming at it from the wrong angle. It isn't that 'helicopters and possessed robo dragons can't open boxes.' Boots on the ground matter, and air superiority, while important, doesn't actually let you hold ground, or even really deny it for that matter. The Luftwaffe ruled the skies above Britain, and Hitler thought that was enough (spoilers, it wasn't). I am not going to get into current affairs, but suffice to say, you can bomb the everloving crap out of the enemy and you still may not secure an area. Fliers are good for causing widespread destruction, but to actually make sure the enemy is totally rooted out and control remains in your hands long-term, you are going to want infantry.

 

This is not exactly 100% true in all cases, but it is true enough to be generally applicable, especially in our space man game where we seem to be fighting WW1-WW2 style battles with lasers.

 

I'm not. I said that's how GW tried to sell that change. ;)

[Sception]

That sucks! Back to the box the Heldrake will go I expect

 

Eh, it's still alright as a distraction, and I never saw it as an objective-claiming kind of unit.

 

I'll run it either way - once I finish converting and painting mine at least - but I do wish they'd up the damage output in melee especially.  6/5/4 attacks and a static weapon skill (having both attacks and WS degrade is too much, imo), and the ability to move and shoot the hades without the heavy weapon penalty would do it, IMO.  Or maybe instead of more attacks with the claws, an additional bite attack with better AP and damage?

 

I don't know.  Again, it's not terrible right now, even without scoring.  A bit overpriced, but not horrifically so.  It just isn't quite the unit that the model implies it should be, imo.

[Azekai]

 

I'm not. I said that's how GW tried to sell that change.

 

Maybe we aren't reading the same blurbs, but all I remember is them saying about the FAQ was this:

 

“Flyers have also been adjusted in light of some feedback from your matched play games. The design team want Warhammer 40,000 to be as fun as possible for as many players as possible, but we’ve noticed that a couple of army lists and certain units were crowding out other options. Now you’ll need to have feet on the ground (or tentacles, hooves, claws, or tracks) to win your games. Flyers are just as powerful as they were before, but now players are encouraged to take more diverse and unusual armies.”

 

Sounds exactly like 'boots on the ground' justification to me.

 

Edit: also the Sudden Death entry of the FAQ says the same thing:

 

 

‘If at the end of any turn after the first battle round, one player has no models on the battle field, the game ends immediately and their opponent automatically wins a crushing victory. When determining if a player has any units on the battle field, do not include any units with the Flyer Battlefield Role – these units cannot operate within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot hold territory without ground support. Furthermore, do not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield Role unless they have a unit embarked inside – even the most formidable bastion requires a garrison if it is to pose a threat.’

 

They clearly aren't saying this rule was put in place because airplanes are bad at opening boxes. If someone quipped that, that is cool, but it certainly doesn't seem to be a significant component in the rule design.

 

At any rate, I would not just shelve the drake. I would try it out, assault some stuff, and see if you can get your opponent to charge it out of frustration for those sweet free flamer hits.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Azekai

[Panzer]

 

 

I'm not. I said that's how GW tried to sell that change.

 

Maybe we aren't reading the same blurbs, but all I remember is them saying about the FAQ was this:

 

“Flyers have also been adjusted in light of some feedback from your matched play games. The design team want Warhammer 40,000 to be as fun as possible for as many players as possible, but we’ve noticed that a couple of army lists and certain units were crowding out other options. Now you’ll need to have feet on the ground (or tentacles, hooves, claws, or tracks) to win your games. Flyers are just as powerful as they were before, but now players are encouraged to take more diverse and unusual armies.”

 

Sounds exactly like 'boots on the ground' justification to me.

 

Edit: also the Sudden Death entry of the FAQ says the same thing:

 

 

‘If at the end of any turn after the first battle round, one player has no models on the battle field, the game ends immediately and their opponent automatically wins a crushing victory. When determining if a player has any units on the battle field, do not include any units with the Flyer Battlefield Role – these units cannot operate within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot hold territory without ground support. Furthermore, do not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield Role unless they have a unit embarked inside – even the most formidable bastion requires a garrison if it is to pose a threat.’

 

They clearly aren't saying this rule was put in place because airplanes are bad at opening boxes. If someone quipped that, that is cool, but it certainly doesn't seem to be a significant component in the rule design.

 

At any rate, I would not just shelve the drake. I would try it out, assault some stuff, and see if you can get your opponent to charge it out of frustration for those sweet free flamer hits.

 

 

 

 

 

Well they said many different things on many different platforms. Can't blame anyone for not catching all of it ^^

[Megadoomer]

First turn charges are nice.

 

Harassing/Distracting key units is nicer

 

Saying "Dracarys" whenever you use the Baleflamer......the best.

[Azekai]

 

 

 

I'm not. I said that's how GW tried to sell that change.

 

Maybe we aren't reading the same blurbs, but all I remember is them saying about the FAQ was this:

 

“Flyers have also been adjusted in light of some feedback from your matched play games. The design team want Warhammer 40,000 to be as fun as possible for as many players as possible, but we’ve noticed that a couple of army lists and certain units were crowding out other options. Now you’ll need to have feet on the ground (or tentacles, hooves, claws, or tracks) to win your games. Flyers are just as powerful as they were before, but now players are encouraged to take more diverse and unusual armies.”

 

Sounds exactly like 'boots on the ground' justification to me.

 

Edit: also the Sudden Death entry of the FAQ says the same thing:

 

 

‘If at the end of any turn after the first battle round, one player has no models on the battle field, the game ends immediately and their opponent automatically wins a crushing victory. When determining if a player has any units on the battle field, do not include any units with the Flyer Battlefield Role – these units cannot operate within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot hold territory without ground support. Furthermore, do not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield Role unless they have a unit embarked inside – even the most formidable bastion requires a garrison if it is to pose a threat.’

 

They clearly aren't saying this rule was put in place because airplanes are bad at opening boxes. If someone quipped that, that is cool, but it certainly doesn't seem to be a significant component in the rule design.

 

At any rate, I would not just shelve the drake. I would try it out, assault some stuff, and see if you can get your opponent to charge it out of frustration for those sweet free flamer hits.

 

 

 

 

 

Well they said many different things on many different platforms. Can't blame anyone for not catching all of it ^^

 

Kek. I cited where GW gave well-reasoned in-universe explanations for unscoring fliers. Where are the sources of them saying fluff doesn't support stormtalons and valkyries opening crates, therefore they can't score? It isn't that I believe you, but such a flippant and absurd approach sounds more like a joke than anything else.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

 

I'm not. I said that's how GW tried to sell that change.

 

Maybe we aren't reading the same blurbs, but all I remember is them saying about the FAQ was this:

 

“Flyers have also been adjusted in light of some feedback from your matched play games. The design team want Warhammer 40,000 to be as fun as possible for as many players as possible, but we’ve noticed that a couple of army lists and certain units were crowding out other options. Now you’ll need to have feet on the ground (or tentacles, hooves, claws, or tracks) to win your games. Flyers are just as powerful as they were before, but now players are encouraged to take more diverse and unusual armies.”

 

Sounds exactly like 'boots on the ground' justification to me.

 

Edit: also the Sudden Death entry of the FAQ says the same thing:

 

 

‘If at the end of any turn after the first battle round, one player has no models on the battle field, the game ends immediately and their opponent automatically wins a crushing victory. When determining if a player has any units on the battle field, do not include any units with the Flyer Battlefield Role – these units cannot operate within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot hold territory without ground support. Furthermore, do not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield Role unless they have a unit embarked inside – even the most formidable bastion requires a garrison if it is to pose a threat.’

 

They clearly aren't saying this rule was put in place because airplanes are bad at opening boxes. If someone quipped that, that is cool, but it certainly doesn't seem to be a significant component in the rule design.

 

At any rate, I would not just shelve the drake. I would try it out, assault some stuff, and see if you can get your opponent to charge it out of frustration for those sweet free flamer hits.

 

 

 

 

 

Well they said many different things on many different platforms. Can't blame anyone for not catching all of it ^^

 

Kek. I cited where GW gave well-reasoned in-universe explanations for unscoring fliers. Where are the sources of them saying fluff doesn't support stormtalons and valkyries opening crates, therefore they can't score? It isn't that I believe you, but such a flippant and absurd approach sounds more like a joke than anything else.

 

Dude it's not like I save links or even care to remember where they say such trivial stuff. It's not like it has ANY meaning. It was just funny to mention because it was so ridiculous. :D

[WarriorFish]

Back to the Heldrake please, this isn't the place to discuss GW's reasons (sensible or not) for a rules change. Thanks.

[Bulwyf]

I have used one for my Death Guard army. It is a distraction that can tie up backfield units and that's about it. I do roleplay the Baleflamer as breathing Phosphex on the enemy but even that is done better with Bloat Drones.

 

I echo what many have said: the model wants to be a bad mama jama in melee but it doesn't do enough damage to justify that image.