Which Chaos Army does what best? Shooting/Assault/Terminator

[General Strike]

With the new codex out, what army does shooting best. This edition is so different in what units are good and what aren't, I figured that I would get your guys opinions. For an assault based army I think I would do WE Zerkers and NL Warp Talons with AL Havok Support. For shootinf, who does it best? BL with AL? Or renegades? I like building modular armies, and I'm not opposed to mixing and matching. Edited August 24, 2017 by HCMistborn

[Mekhitar]

For sheer long-range firepower, I'd run slaanesh-marked noise marines or LC havocs, depending on if you want to go anti-everything or harder-hitting anti tank. Probably AL for the penalty to hit them at long range. (I play EC, but their legion trait ain't meant for shooting.)

 

A babysitting/countercharge DP handing out prescience and rerolls of 1 in the same package, plus 3cp for VotLW and double shooting on the unit, gives a lot of punch. You can't afford it all the time, but when you can, it'll seriously hurt.

[Panzer]

Anything with Slaanesh units due the double shooting Stratagem. I'd argue Alpha Legion due the -1 to-hit penalty for enemys. ^^

[OnboardG1]

Anything with Slaanesh units due the double shooting Stratagem. I'd argue Alpha Legion due the -1 to-hit penalty for enemys. ^^

 

Missile Launcher havocs are pretty dirty being able to fire twice with veterans of the long war active. 

[General Strike]

So maybe a EC battalion of Noise Marines, a AL Spearhead of Nurgle Havoks with Miasma, and fill in the gaps with protection from CC?

 

Nurgle AL Havoks with Miasma would be a -2 to hit, which makes them way more survivable. I just wonder would survivability pay off more or would the second shooting? The list I made has 8 CP to use.

Edited August 24, 2017 by HCMistborn

[Panzer]

I wouldn't go with Nurgle Havocs. Just plain Slaanesh Havocs. Let them benefit from the double shooting Stratagem. A -1 to-hit modifier at >12" is already good enough for a long ranged unit and if you want to give them more protection you could still give them a 5+ FnP via the Slaanesh psychic power.

[General Strike]

Hah you answered my question as I was typing it.

[Mekhitar]

You can't get 4 of them in a squad, but it's worth noting that point-for-point, blastmasters beat out missile launchers. With the same strength and AP, they are Averaging 2 shots and 2 DMG per (total 4) to a ML's average 3.5. They have a higher max damage, too, of 9 vs 6... and multiple shots benefit more from prescience and reroll auras. Ignores cover is just a bonus... and they are only 20pts a pop.

 

The anti horde stats are even better: d6 s5 ap-1, vs d6 s4 ap-. But again, can't get four in a squad. However you can load up the rest of your NM with sonic weapons, making them deadly at 24" in addition to being meatshields, and more useful shot-wise than extra havocs with just bolters.

 

I have tried running lashavocs in min sized squads and find I regularly lose 4-6 bodies between enemy shooting and morale on T1... so taking those extra bodies to preserve your havoc specials is worth it.

 

In the case of NM, you need to take 10 to unlock the second blast master. Since they shoot back as they die, though, they make great soaks.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Mekhitar

[the jeske]

AL list with AL noise marines, havocks and leviathan dreads.

[OnboardG1]

A shooting-based contemptor dread with two C-beamers or two Butcher cannons would be a pretty nasty threat with the AL keyword. Especially given that for the princely sum of 1cp per turn you can double its shooting.

[Commissar K.]

Yeah for shooting Id say AL right now, though I think TS will be right there with them once their Codex hits.

 

For melee we have a lot of good options, WE have the prime Berzerker advantage, EC Princes are incredible and NL Raptors/Talons should do great also but all this is heavily empowered by Warp Speed. Its a pitty Fighting again is 3 cp but shooting again is 2.

 

For Terminator games Id say DG will get that win. Even if all they have is 2+ and 5+++ without 5++. Reasoning is their upcomming spoiled wargear most CSM wish they had.

Then there are some nice combined arms advantages to BL aswell and frankly Abaddon is a rockstar. Who happens to be in termy armour also.

 

Unfortunatly WB and IW still feel very underwhelming.

[HeresyBeliever]

I have been running BL as I have been using Abaddon but my next step is to try Iron warriors. 

The ignore cover have to be an advantage. 

 

Agreed the AL -1 o hit is a mega trait as well

[Mekhitar]

I thought it was ruled that only Helbrutes benefit from fire frenzy and legion traits...?

[Khornestar]

Re: Fire Frenzy: That's more or less how it "has" to be since it seems to only apply to the unit and not the keyword Helbrute.

 

For the legion trait it applies to all dreads, as per the FW errata/FAQ contemptors, leviathans, and I think decimators (possibly deredeos too) have the Helbrute keyword.

[HeresyBeliever]

Re: Fire Frenzy: That's more or less how it "has" to be since it seems to only apply to the unit and not the keyword Helbrute.

 

For the legion trait it applies to all dreads, as per the FW errata/FAQ contemptors, leviathans, and I think decimators (possibly deredeos too) have the Helbrute keyword.

Decimators don't have the helbrute keyword as they are daemon / daemon engines

[Commissar K.]

The Fire Frenzy Stratagem is Helbrute only though (dunno if that was the point of discussion). Its not Keyword focused but name focused.

[Sception]

TLDR:  Who does what best?

 

Shooting: Alpha Legion (shrouded long range units, infiltrating short range units)

honorable mentions: Emperor's Children (troop noise marines), Black Legion (Abaddon), Iron Warriors (if you play on the right tables, against the right opponents, such that ignoring cover matters)

 

Assault: Alpha Legion by a mile (infiltrating melee units)

honorable mentions: World Eaters (troop berzerkers), Renegades (advance & charge), Night Lords (leadership penalties), Black Legion (abaddon)

 

Terminators: Alpha Legion (infiltration > deep strike)

honorable mentions: Black Legion (abaddon), Night Lords (leadership penalties, shrouding stratagem), World Eaters (extra attacks), Iron Warriors (if you play on the right tables, against the right opponents, such that ignoring cover matters)

 

Booby prize: Word Bearers, with a trait that, if anything, is even more useless than the Black Legion and no Abaddon to save them.  They're not completely without merit, as their artefact and warlord trait are good, but they're not really the best or even good in a unique way at anything other than daemon summoning, which isn't a good enough trick to make them stand out.

 

Disclaimer:  In general the best things about Chaos Marines are general stuff, not legion specific.  FW shooty units.  Berzerkers.  Winged princes.  Terminators.  Khorne Icons.  Shoot twice slaanesh stratagem.  Veterans of the Long War.  For the most part, it doesn't matter what your legion is, and the difference between a legion that is good at something and a legion that is bad at that same thing is basically completely negligible, as they'll still run mostly the same units doing mostly mostly the same things.

 

 

The only subfaction rules that might really change how or what your army plays are, in order of most to least significant:

 

1) the Alpha Legion's infiltration stratagem (and to a much lesser extent their shrouding trait)

 

2) the World Eaters' and Emperor's Children's mark restrictions and troop cult units, and

 

3) the Black Legion's access to Abaddon the Despoiler.

 

Apart from that, Chaos Marines are Chaos Marines, and subfaction traits are garnishes at best, which is kind of disappointing because there's little to make, say, a Night Lords army feel mechanically distinct from a Word Bearers one.  But as a silver lining, it also means that your legion choice mostly isn't going to make you much worse off, either.  Word Bearers may be the 'worst' legion, but they're so little removed from most other legions in terms of what they use and how they operate that it isn't really worth getting bent out of shape over.

 

 

Long version:

Shooting:

 

Here Slaanesh has an edge with the shoot twice stratagem, but that's for infantry only and like all stratagems only once per phase.  Even with the double-shooting stratagem, anti-infantry firepower from havocs or noise marines is still overshadowed by that provided by rapier platforms, imo, so you're probably better off taking the platforms for anti-infantry, and using the stratagem on an anti-heavy unit, like lascannon havocs, or infiltrating alpha legion havocs or chosen with plasmaguns, or deep striking terminators (my preference).  Obliterators are also an option to consider, but while the doubling of their firepower makes them ok on their own, their limited unit size makes them an iffy choice for spending multiple command points per turn - though if any future changes let you field them in larger squad sizes then double shooting slaaneshi oblits will definitely become a thing.

 

While the double shooting slaaneshi stratagem is the stand out option, there are a few other generic stratagems that are good for shooting armies, the most notable being veterans of the long war.  It's a powerful ability, and the fact that renegade chapters can't use it is the biggest strike against them.  The double shooting helbrute stratagem is the best thing that unit has going - though do note it can only be used by the helbrute unit, not other units with the helbrute keyword.  Our stratagems in general are strong, especially at range, so you're going to want to rack up those command points.  I see a lot of MSU cultists in the future for CSM shooty armies, along with side detachments filling slots with brimstones or mutant rabble.

 

Apart from that, chaos predators are good, and the kill shot stratagem is particularly nice if you can afford three of them.  And Rubrics can do some work, especially with the chaos familiar stratagem that lets you trade out their champion's depowered smite for a full strength heretic astartes power.  But our best shooty options, unsurprisingly, come from forgeworld, even if those units have limited access to our codex's stratagems.  Helforged Deredeos, Leviathans, Sicarans, Contemptors, and (as previously mentioned) Rapiers can all do a lot of work, as can Decimators.  Fire Raptors are expensive, but not quite prohibitively so for how much firepower they put out (though sadly their heavy bolter sponsons now completely eclipse the fluffier and cooler autocannons).  And if you dip into renegades and heretics, you can pick up a lot of firepower there.  Not from the heretic squads themselves, they're garbage, but earthshaker batteries and heavy quad launchers offer some serious long range firepower with the added benefit of ignoring line of sight, and a plain old baneblade is one of the better superheavies Chaos has for shooting stuff - though a plain old dual dakka renegade knight is still quite respectable.

 

Character-wise, smiths are cheap and nice for healing vehicles (though be aware that, per the faq, none of the FW hellforged stuff can benefit from them), lords have a nice re-roll aura that, unlike the apostle and exalted auras, works for shooting.  The big character is sorcerers, though.  Prescience is an amazing power, death hex also works wonders if you can get in range to cast it.  Infernal gaze at first looks like a worse smite, but then you realize that it isn't limited to the nearest unit and can in fact pick out pesky hidden characters.  The aligned defensive buffs are all fantastic (though the tzeentch power is a lot more situational than the other two).  And of course smite itself remains a good power.

 

Legion-wise, few of the chaos legions actually benefit shooting directly, at least offensively.  The Iron Warriors trait does, though with the way terrain works in the new edition it may not be a significant benefit for you.  I tend to play against msu opponents on heavily cluttered city fight boards, and in that kind of setting the Iron Warriors trait actually really does shine, but if you play against people who run larger units or on tables with less area terrain it very quickly drops off into worthlessness.  Black Legion lets infantry units advance and fire rapid fire weapons, but they fire them as assault weapons, which means no double tap and a penalty to hit, which makes any shots they do make with the weapons basically negligible, so it can be considered a non-ability.  So if you don't play on the kinds of tables and against the kinds of opponents that make the Iron Warriors trait good, then the best legion for shooting is Alpha Legion by a mile, with their significant defensive boost at mid to long ranges that will be especially beneficial to Deredeo dreadnoughts.  Alpha Legion doritos make a strong case for being the best shooting unit in the entire chaos arsenal, their only weakness is again that errata that prevents them from being healed by warpsmiths or hellwrights.

 

None of the other legions have legion traits relevant to shooting, although a couple of the legion stratagems are.  Night Lords shrouding strat can be a life saver, as well as an effective psychological tool.  The Black Legion stratagem to re-roll ones to hit is redundant with character auras, but you can use it on unsupported flanking units.  It lets their terminators play the double-shooting slaaneshi plasma game without having to invest in a character to babysit them.  The iron warriors stratagem can add some extra defense in a pinch, but... it's really unreliable.  The best stratagem is probably the Alpha Legion one, which lets you infiltrate units for a command point each.  It's obviously relevant for melee and short ranged units like chosen or havocs with plasma or meltaguns, melta-armed terminators, or (especially) berzerkers, but even long ranged units can benefit from it, letting you see the enemy's full deployment before you commit them, giving them the best possible firing lanes.  You might not want to rely too heavily on it, though.  It's so good that I would not be surprised to see it nerfed in the future, with either the cost increasing to two command points or else being restricted to one unit per game.

 

And while I don't think noise marines are an amazing choice for anti-infantry shooting as an elite unit, Emperor's Children get them as troops, where they absolutely do shine compared to basic chaos marines or cultists.  So while the rest of the EC stuff is mostly melee or short range based, troop noise marines do make them worth noting among CSM shooty armies, even if it's still probably not enough to make them better than Alpha Legion.

 

As a final note, while I don't think the Black Legion trait is worth consideration, their special character absolutely is.  A 12" fearless aura for your screens and a 6" miss re-roll aura for your guns is all anyone could reasonably hope for from their warlord in a shooty list.  Two extra command points and a counter-punch unit that, with a little support from nearby sorcerers, even primarch-level threats have to think twice about engaging is the icing on the cake that makes him absolutely worth his points cost and then some.  Abaddon by himself makes the Black Legion a respectable contender among CSM shooty armies.  And, though it remains a somewhat lackluster option, it is worth mentioning that the Black Legion have the only artefact that's at all relevant at range.

 

.................................

 

Assault:

 

We have some of the stronger melee units in the game.  Chaos terminators, flail-armed plague marines, warp talons, daemon princes, artefact-armed lords, Khârn, Abaddon, and especially berzerkers are all quite impressive.  The Lord of Skulls is a beast and a half, apostles and exalteds offer solid melee buffs to nearby units, defilers and maulers and even mutilators and possessed can get some work done, though the randomness of the latter units makes them less appealing, imo.  And there are significant contributions to be had from the daemon book.  Skarbrand and Fiends of Slaanesh in particular can keep units you engage tagged in place, so that they don't just fall back and leave your melee units exposed to the enemy's guns, while Be'Lakor is a fantastic character an in particular works well with Night Lords.

 

The problem, as always, is delivery.

 

And since delivery is the biggest problem, the most powerful Chaos Marine melee army is Alpha Legion, thanks to their amazing, frankly too good stratagem, which lets you deploy your heaviest melee units in range for a first turn charge.  Expensive and vulnerable transports just don't compare.  Heck, even deep striking doesn't compare, in an Alpha Legion army terminators are often better served infiltrating than deep striking.  Again, though, I would not be surprised to see the infiltration stratagem nerfed, and even if it isn't the Alpha Legion aren't the only game in town, even if they are unquestionably the best.

 

Renegades also make a decent case for themselves, with the ability to advance and charge, which is a big help to rhino and land raider based assault rushes, though losing out on veterans of the long war hurts them in melee almost as much as it does at range.  World Eaters get extra attacks on the charge, but that strikes me as a kind of superfluous ability when the tricky part is charging in the first place.  Possessed, though, are especially covetous of any source of extra attacks, so that they're not completely dependent on the die roll there, so I could see world eaters possessed doing alright.  That and getting berzerkers as troops is a significant bonus to melee armies.  The Night Lords leadership debuff is kind of nice for a melee army, and, fluffily enough, works particularly well with raptors, though again it's a bonus that mostly only matters once you've already reached melee, when what CSM assault armies really want is help getting there in the first place.

 

One or more sorcerers for warp time (and death hex, maybe diabolic strength, and the aligned defensive buffs are still great here) is also a near must have in any non-alpha-legion melee army.  Even World Eaters should be strongly encouraged to grab some psychic support in a side detachment, much as it might gall them to do so.

 

If you're not playing Alpha Legion, you'll probably need transports.  Rhinos are good if kept cheap, but can actually be somewhat reasonable little dakka tanks with a havoc launcher and a second combi bolter if you have spare points.  And our land raider is actually a decent tank this time around, though I still chafe at it's small transport capacity.  dreadclaws are more points than they're worth, ime.  I have no opinion one way or the other on the kharybdis.  The spartan feels too pricey for me, and the lack of machine spirit on it really hurts its dual roles.

 

So mostly I recommend rhinos, with maybe a land raider or two points depending.  For what goes in them - definitely clown car, imo.  For World Eaters, 2x5 berzerkers, and for emperor's children 2x5 noise marines, but for other legions I'd say 1x5 basic CSMs for claiming objectives and 1x5 some specialist unit.  For a melee army, berzerkers are the best here, but most of our power armored infantry can work in this configuration, whether you're talking possessed, melee or ranged chosen or plagues, rubrics with bolters or flamers, havocs with special weapons, etc.  Since this ends up being a sort of MSU set up, the Night Lords trait can quickly get up to the threshhold where it matters.

 

Unfortunately, 2x5 doesn't leave room for characters.  Lords and sorcerers can take terminator armor or wings and deep strike into position as their units disembark.  Daemon Princes are especially good characters in this kind of army, and can take wings to keep pace with your transports.  Borrowing a bloodthirster or Be'Lakor in a side detachment can be good - Be'Lakor in particular is nice with Night Lords.  Exalteds and apostles will have to displace models in those transports, so maybe one of your clown cars carries 8 zerkers plus an apostle and an exalted instead of the usual 5 zerks, 5 csms.

 

You can take MSU cultists for troops and skip the CSMs in the rhinos, just taking the better specialist units instead, but the obsec troop rule makes me think it's worth bringing a few CSM units along for the ride in your assault rush, unless you're playing world eaters or emperor's children, of course, in which case you should never field basic CSMs ever.

 

Apart from infiltrating alpha legion and rhino rush, the alternative options for assault are infantry horde, terminator drop, and fast-attack-based bike/jump rush.  The first is, imo, really only an option for Black Legion, and only then with the Despoiler on board, since without Abaddon to hand out fearless and rerolls I don't think our bulk infantry are brave or hurty enough to try that game.  Termi drop sticks you at pretty long range for assault, though with multiple small units carrying icons of khorne you can get a few in there, plus you'll have one try at warp time from a sorcerer, which should help.  And even units that don't make the charge will still have had a chance to do some damage with their shooting attacks.  You'll also likely suffer from CP issues, since multiple termi units are expensive, so you'll likely be stuck relying on the elite leaning detachment rather than troop heavy battalions.  Abaddon can help with this, if you play Black Legion.

 

Bike/Jump rush suffers from the same CP issues.  Melee CSM armies in general can afford to play with slightly fewer CPs than our ranged armies, though, as IMO our melee units are less dependent on stratagems to do their work than our shooty units, and our most notable melee stratagem - khornate stuff fighting again - costs too many CP to be practical.  The bigger issue for jump/bike rush is that you'll need a lot of line of sight blocking terrain to cover your advance, or else you'll be stuck trying to make a lot of long range charges from deep strike.  As with terminators, multiple minimum strength units and icons of khorne and a sorcerer or daemon prince with warptime can help make sure at least something gets to assault, but deep striking raptors and warp talons don't have as much durability or ranged firepower as terminators to fall back on if they fail their charge.  Night Lords, World Eaters, and Renegade traits are all decent here.  Winged Princes are probably the best CSM characters for this sort of army, though blood thirsters, fiends of slaanesh, and Be'lakor from the daemon book are all welcome additions.  Night Lords, again, especially want Be'lakor.  You should really always think of them going together, like Peanut Butter and Jelly, or Black Legion and Abaddon.

 

..................................

 

Terminators: I've mentioned a bit already.  With combi-plas, deep striking terminators are ideal platforms for the slaaneshi shoot twice stratagem.  With the Icon of Khorne, multiple small units of khornate terminators have a good chance of making a charge out of deep strike.  If you're taking a terminator heavy army, I'd recommend one larger unit of the former, and multiple minimum strength units of the latter, supported by a terminator or jump lord and multiple sorcerers, in particular casting death hex to kill enemy invulnerable saves and warptime to push a lord or Abaddon or that one slaaneshi unit into assault range.  Abaddon fits right in here, as he does everywhere else.  Nurgle and Tzeentch terminators don't have as much to sell them as their Slaanesh or Khorne counterparts, especially when their respective cult terminators are so much better, but if you have multiple sorcerers it can be worth taking them just to have targets for the other aligned spells.  Oblits provide some decent extra fire support for deep striking terminators as well.  Remember that you'll need to deploy as many units as you reserve in matched play, so some cheap cultists or a couple CSM clown cars or a side detachment of brimstones or mutants may be needed.

 

In terms of who does it best, well, again infiltrating is better than deep striking, so alpha legion is the best here, and don't even need to bother with icons of khorne.  Black Legion, as usual, have Abaddon to recommend them.  Iron Warriors are very good if you play against the right opponents on the right boards and worthless otherwise.  Night Lords and World Eaters can be decent here if pushing the multiple icon bearing khorne terminators trying to get assaults in, and the Night Lords shrouding trait can be very helpful with shielding that one larger slaaneshi unit.  Other legions IMO don't add or detract much for this sort of army, though the emperor's children stratagem can actually be kind of impressive with terminators.

Edited August 25, 2017 by malisteen

[MoGuy]

I hope that Death Guard will do Termis best once their codex drops...

[Mekhitar]

To go with the great comprehensive look above, do not forget about DTTFE when facing imperials! A slaanesh icon + prescience increases your damage output by 50% since you generate new attacks on a 4+ (in case you were looking for something for your plasma terminators with combiplas to smack with their axes afterward.) especially great as prescience lasts the whole turn, letting you benefit from the shooting and the assault back to back.

 

This makes those termies with AL especially good...

[Commissar K.]

I hope that Death Guard will do Termis best once their codex drops...

I deem it quite likely. T5, ARM2+, 5+++ and WND2 are certain.

[Sception]

I hope that Death Guard will do Termis best once their codex drops...

 

I didn't consider Death Guard or Thousand Sons in my longer post above.  Partially because they don't have their own books out yet and so their abilities are subject to considerable change, and partially because I just have less experience with them.

 

That said, on the terminator front, rubric terminators are pretty nice, especially, again, with that familiar stratagem to swap our the champions weak smite for something better.  You'll need a non-TS CSM detachment to unlock the CSM stratagems to use it, but once you've done so it should work on them just fine.  Combine that with cheap combi bolters boasting real AP and a 2+/4++ save, and they're a very nice unit.  I would probably run some in my Black Legion army if they weren't legion-locked to the sons.

 

Death guard termis should rank pretty high once they're out.  Looks like they get two different versions, melee and ranged.  The melee ones look elity and will probably be more expensive despite the ranged ones probably being better by default due to shooting being better than melee generally and deep strike putting you in guaranteed shooty range but only very unlikely assault range.  Either way, both should be sporting 2+/5++/5+++ saves, making them very resilient, particularly if DG have access to additional defensive buffs via legion traits, stratagems, or psychic powers.  I imagine they'll certainly be up there in terms of terminator quality.

 

Ye olde generic Chaos Space Marine terminators will probably still be the best overall, due to access to endless cacophony or icon of wrath, along with the Alpha Legion's infiltration stratagem.

[Gothical]

 

Anything with Slaanesh units due the double shooting Stratagem. I'd argue Alpha Legion due the -1 to-hit penalty for enemys. ^^

 

Missile Launcher havocs are pretty dirty being able to fire twice with veterans of the long war active. 

 

 

 

I hadn't considered we could combine those two Stratagems.

 

Might be my new favourite for Iron Warriors, who seem to be being sold a little short. Ignores Cover is a little situational, but I haven't seen a game where there wasn't something hunkered down being a problem. Being able to throw 24 shots wounding on 2s with AP-1(/effectively -2 against Cover) will be devastating against infantry. At the same time, putting out 8 Lascannon shots that wound virtually every vehicle on a 2+ (Warhounds on 3+, Reavers on 4+ and Warlords on 5+) and even gets Fortifications on a (re-rollable) 4+ is bonkers. Missile Launchers are, as you point out, brilliant there too (upgrades them to quasi-Lascannon or Havoc Launcher)

 

Oddly, the only one I'm not impressed with is the Autocannon. It may be a perfect middle-ground weapon normally, but doesn't gain as much as the other options.

 

I don't even want to consider what that combo would do to a full-Combi Terminator squad. Wow.

[OnboardG1]

 

 

Anything with Slaanesh units due the double shooting Stratagem. I'd argue Alpha Legion due the -1 to-hit penalty for enemys. ^^

 

Missile Launcher havocs are pretty dirty being able to fire twice with veterans of the long war active. 

 

 

 

I hadn't considered we could combine those two Stratagems.

 

Might be my new favourite for Iron Warriors, who seem to be being sold a little short. Ignores Cover is a little situational, but I haven't seen a game where there wasn't something hunkered down being a problem. Being able to throw 24 shots wounding on 2s with AP-1(/effectively -2 against Cover) will be devastating against infantry. At the same time, putting out 8 Lascannon shots that wound virtually every vehicle on a 2+ (Warhounds on 3+, Reavers on 4+ and Warlords on 5+) and even gets Fortifications on a (re-rollable) 4+ is bonkers. Missile Launchers are, as you point out, brilliant there too (upgrades them to quasi-Lascannon or Havoc Launcher)

 

Oddly, the only one I'm not impressed with is the Autocannon. It may be a perfect middle-ground weapon normally, but doesn't gain as much as the other options.

 

I don't even want to consider what that combo would do to a full-Combi Terminator squad. Wow.

 

 

I use a sorcerer and lord to get rerollable 2+ to hit too. The look on my friend's face when I shot two of his eldar troops off the board in a single turn with one unit of havocs...

[General Strike]

So, how would you guys make a terminator focused army work? I want to run a list of DG terminators (guessing they will be around the same price of Scarab Occult), as well as Scarab Occult. What are the gaps to fill? Movement after DS can be helped with warp time, and bringing bodies and fast options is needed. In terms of fast options, DG and Tsons are limited to Bloat Drones and Spawn. For bodies we have Poxwalkers, Tzaangors or cultists.

[Sception]

obvious gap to fill is ground units, since only half your units can special deploy, and obvious unit to fill those gaps with is poxwalkers, but beyond that can't say much till we see the actual rules for death guard termies and their codex more generally. Be patient. It'll only be a few weeks now.