Has anyone else noticed how cheap custodes are?

[Gnomeo]

has anyone else noticed that compared to paladins custodes are cheaper in points and in power points despite being better in my opinion

[Brother Captain Sirus]

Yes, i think a number of players have noticed.

 

It was recently mentioned to gw on fb, the answer they gave was units are priced within an army not across all codexes.

[Beams]

Custodes lack psychic powers too. And don't have the option to take PA squads. So you can't have nearly as large of an army.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

They also lack hqs and the buffs they provide, this may change as new codexes are released, so i'd guess their points cost may change in future as well.

[Danarc]

The answer is crazy. The most balanced edition what?

Balance inside codex (that doesn't exixt as you can see among pagk termy and pally) doesn't bring to balanced edition.

Custodes should cost much more.

[Beams]

But doesn't it?

 

Grey Knight paladins, by themselves, should.be cheaper compared to custodes. But with HQs for reroll hit and wound and banners for additional attacks and apocethary to heal wounds or revive, well, they are justified in costing that much. Not to mention our mound of psykers to buff them that way (sanctuary and gate). All things that Custodes lack. Sure, GK paladins don't "have" that intrinsically, but part of a cohesive balanced game is to make sure the factions are balanced against each other, not individual units against each other.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Beams

[Gentlemanloser]

RG and Inquisitors buff custodians. And provide HQ choices for them.

 

In 8th, with the imperium keyword, there is no such thing as units aren't balanced with each other.

 

The entire imperium is a single codex / army.

 

Don't let GW pr mislead you.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Gnomeo]

See I can appreciate how they don't get rerolls and stuff from other models or modifiers but if they did it would be insane as for points they are like 3-5 points cheaper or like 5 power points cheaper i dont think they need a drastic points increase but some as when you look at the points of the model without gear compared to paladin without gear they are insanely cheap and thats for s5 t5

[Beams]

RG and Inquisitors buff custodians. And provide HQ choices for them.

 

In 8th, with the imperium keyword, there is no such thing as units aren't balanced with each other.

 

The entire imperium is a single codex / army.

 

Don't let GW pr mislead you.

Also buffs GK. But GK have access to much more buffers.

 

With Chaplain and Grandmaster they get rerolls on to hit/wound, they get +1 attack from a banner, plus tons of psychic support, in addition to the leadership 9 from an inqusitor, rerolls from Guilliman and limited Inquisitor psychics that Custodes have.

 

A pure grey knights army will make each grey knight miles better,.where a pure Custodes army, well, doesn't.

 

Also, you can't compare without wargear. The wargear might cost separately, but you have to take it, so it effects the cost of the models themselves, as they have to be priced to work with the wargear on top of it.

[Danarc]

But doesn't it?

Grey Knight paladins, by themselves, should.be cheaper compared to custodes. But with HQs for reroll hit and wound and banners for additional attacks and apocethary to heal wounds or revive, well, they are justified in costing that much. Not to mention our mound of psykers to buff them that way (sanctuary and gate). All things that Custodes lack. Sure, GK paladins don't "have" that intrinsically, but part of a cohesive balanced game is to make sure the factions are balanced against each other, not individual units against each other.

ah-ahm we pay that reroll when we buy GM. Why we have to pay it twice? This is a little strange, isn't it?

[Waking Dreamer]

Someone should try to have a game against a pure Custodes army using their pure GKs. See if our GKs get trounced or not. GKs are at a pretty solid competitive level at the moment, haven't checked Custodes threads or army lists, not sure if custodes are struggling, giving a good account for themselves or walking all over their opponents...

[Gentlemanloser]

How can a codex unit cost be justified by the existence of other units?

 

What happens if you don't use those units that we've been increased in cost beside of thier existence?

 

Balance simply doesn't and can't work that way.

 

GKT don't cost 48ppm because Draigo exists and you *might* use him to let your GKT reroll failed hits...

 

Draigo costs 240 points because of the abilities he brings.

 

Regardless of which units he does, or doesn't buff.

 

Draigo doesn't cost 240 points becuase he might make Purgators better at shooting.

 

Use him with bs3 troops and he should cost more than if you use him with bs2 ones becuase his reroll is worth more...

 

Game balance doesn't work that way

Edited August 26, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Beams]

Game balance doesn't work in a vacuum

 

A grey knight hq is priced the way he is due to the abolities he brings.

 

A grey knight paladins is priced based on the abilities they bring.

 

The fine tuning is brought when you test them as an army, and see how powerful everything is as an army.

 

Yes, you (mostly) pay for the rerolls when you use a grandmaster, but the paladin most likely costs 1-2 pts more becuase there are significantly options to buff them and they probably would perform way above par if they were any cheaper.

[Archon_77]

Someone should try to have a game against a pure Custodes army using their pure GKs. See if our GKs get trounced or not. GKs are at a pretty solid competitive level at the moment, haven't checked Custodes threads or army lists, not sure if custodes are struggling, giving a good account for themselves or walking all over their opponents...

 

One of my local guys plays pure custodies and with my pure GK list we've split our four games. We mostly end up trying to out position each other as we both are low model count. I'd say they are fine, but I've yet to play him with our new codex... I think I'd be ahead now.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

Someone should try to have a game against a pure Custodes army using their pure GKs. See if our GKs get trounced or not. GKs are at a pretty solid competitive level at the moment, haven't checked Custodes threads or army lists, not sure if custodes are struggling, giving a good account for themselves or walking all over their opponents...

One of my local guys plays pure custodies and with my pure GK list we've split our four games. We mostly end up trying to out position each other as we both are low model count. I'd say they are fine, but I've yet to play him with our new codex... I think I'd be ahead now.

Have you felt his infantry units out preform our GK Terminators/paladins?

[Gentlemanloser]

So we pay more for our dreads because we have the potential to spend cp on heed the wisdom of the ancients and gain rerolls.

 

Except they did not increase in cost from index to codex.

 

So no, that's obviously not correct.

 

And again, with the imperium keyword, the entire imperial range is simply one big codex. So every unit in the imperial range must be balanced versus every other unit 'in codex'.

 

RG must be costed as much as he is becuase he can buff Custodians, right? Custodians must cost as much as they do simply becuase you have the option to bring RG to give them a reroll...

[Gnomeo]

see I am not saying the should have a massive points increase only a slight take a paladin with halbard and stormbolter and a custodian with guardian spear. 

the custodian is 3 pts cheaper per model with better movement, WS, S, and T.

in shooting we get either 1 or 2 extra shots depending on range however they have ap -1 and 2 damage. this makes us better at 1w models but them better at multi wound models.

now the guardian spear in melee has -3 ap compared to are -2 but otherwise is the same.

 

are advantages are ATSKNF, Deamon hunters, Rites of banishment, teleport strike and psychic shinanigans. (I do think that custodus should have either fearless or ATSKNF there the emperors personal guard)

 

we can tailor are unit more with ranged weapons and diffrent melee weapons.

 

however custodes can change melee weapons so the get a storm shield essential almost turning them each in to mini old school draigos when he had S5, T5.

 

to get an extra attack we have to buy an extra model and keep it in range yes it has the character rule but that does not effect snipers or if it get charged.

 

custodes can get the same benefit by upgrading one.

 

as an army I think we smash them partly just due to the number of mortal wounds we can dish out. 

 

however they are better at close combat yes we can use hammerhand and sanctuary however even with both up they are still better at close combat. 

 

so I think there points should be increased maybe so they are 3pts more expensive than paladins they are ment to be the best fighters in the imperium.

 

now there power points are definitely wrong 14pp gets you a 5 man squad   were as to get a 5 man squad of paladins is 19pp. this however could be from either end as power points are a bit random and very poorly balanced in some cases and it may be that paladin power points are just massively over costed

Edited August 26, 2017 by Gnomeo

[the jeske]

ok, if GK cost more because they can be buffed, doesn't G-man buff all imperials ? So the custodes should cost more. And the interaction with stuff like culexus assasins should make them cost even more. Or is the points balanced done only withing a codex/index, but not within a faction?

[Danarc]

It is crazy to affirm that the price are ok because of our HQ abilities.

SM received an huge points drop even if they have Guillyman AND other HQ, and their CM upgrade costs CP not points.

There is no balance. Neither inside nor among codex. And there is no reason for GK overprice.

[Adeptus]

Unit pricing has to take into account both the pure crunch of a unit AND it's potential synergies. Paladins in a Grey Knights detachment have great synergy. The same Custodes unit in a Grey Knights detachment does NOT have the same synergies and it's cost should reflect that. Since it belongs to such a small, limited faction it doesn't matter WHAT detachment you put it in, the Custodes unit lacks synergy by comparison and must (more or less) rely on their own stats, so it totally makes sense for them to be cheaper. Edited August 26, 2017 by Adeptus

[Zamtro]

So logically speaking, why don't you take Custodes instead of Paladins?

[Waking Dreamer]

Custodes are Troops. They are the ONLY troop option. Any other army that have troops cost just shy of our best infantry unit ?

 

You need minimum 15 of them to get CPs.

 

Mathhammer...are they so much better than Paladins after the psychic, shooting and combat phases?

[Seizeman]

Paladins are a lot better than custodes when you consider every factor.

 

Firstly, custodes are not good vs vehicles. They can't take hammers, wich are the main damage dealers vs vehicles, and their spears are not better than falchions in this situation.

 

Secondly, their shooting is a lot worse. They are slightly better against multiwound opponents, but they are pretty bad anyway against those targets. Against infantry, wich is the main target for bolters, they are a lot worse. There's no use in having expensive melee units if they can't get past the bubble wrapping.

 

Thirdly, they can't be buffed. Yes, buffs are added to the HQ cost, but custodes being unable to receive any relevant buffs affects their performance and should be considered when costing them. A unit cost should be not just a sum of gear and stats but must consider the actual effectiveness of the unit. WIth just a regular GM aura (reroll 1s), which you can manage to have most of the times, Paladins become significantly better against vehicles and pretty close to the custodes against marines, and a lot better with their bolters.

 

Talking about actual effectiveness, the most important disadvantage of the custodes is their mobility, which seriously affects their playability. They can't deep strike, which is a huge deal. With deep striking, Paladins can start doing damage from the first turn and come to full efficiency on the second (when they can reliably charge) at most. Custodes must go on foot, so you won't be using them for at least one turn, and won't be able to get into close combat for one or two more turns in most cases. Not only that, but during those turns they can be shot by the enemy. The alternative is to buy them a 366 points land raider, wich solves those problems partially, but it is still worse than deep striking, as they will spend at least one turn (oftentimes 2, if the opponent plays defensively) closing the distance and they are unable to shoot while embarked (and, of course, the land raider can be destroyed). It is also extremely expensive (at least their land raider is very good). The Paladins can also ride a stormraven, that is basically a flying land raider with better firepower.

 

Lastly, paladins can use psychic powers, wich we already know how good they are. A single smite does as much damage as half a custode (shooting+melee). Casting hammerhand on the paladins puts them way ahead of the custodes.

 

So, all in all, Paladins are significantly better than custodes, specially when they don't fit in any detachment except for imperial soup ones. In fact, I'd say custodes are overpriced by 3 or 4 points per model.

[Danarc]

Custodes overpriced?

Ahahahahahhaha. I can't tell anymore.

You win.

[Prot]

Just keep in mind the Index rules are extremely vanilla and we can see what happens once an army starts getting a codex, strategums, special rules, etc. I think we can fairly say that judging anything from the index only gives us an initial glance of how it will work but not a heck of a lot more. Please wait til the Custodes Codex comes out before making any broad sweeping judgments.