Has anyone else noticed how cheap custodes are?

[the jeske]

Since it belongs to such a small, limited faction it doesn't matter WHAT detachment you put it in, the Custodes unit lacks synergy by comparison and must (more or less) rely on their own stats, so it totally makes sense for them to be cheaper.

 

 

I don't know triangulating a G-man behind a screen of some assasins has synergy, and both units come from different detachments. Plus there is the overload rule. If you take 6-7 of something which normal armies can deal with 2-3, and those 6-7 things are good, then they can come from 6-7 different codexs and synergy is still going to be there. Its like having a conscript chaff in front[and behind] 3-4 knights. Technicly the commissars do nothing to make the knights better, but we know this is not the case. Same with g-man giving the whole "formation" buffs and counter.

[Gentlemanloser]

Adeptus.

 

Potential synergy (just a small example) for our Apothecaries includes using an Inquisitor for +1 ld and Terrify to buff our casting of Purge Soul.

 

Is *anyone* serously suggesting that our Apothecaries, or even any of our Psychic units, have points costs based on that potential synergy?

 

No?

 

Well you must, if you assert that points costs are based on synergies with other units.

 

Prot bought it up, I'd been staying clear of it. But Codexes bring 'free' buffs.

 

It's unfair to compare index units with the freebies that the codexes have given the lucky few at them moment. Chapter Tactics, extra powers, relics, warlord traits, stratagem. All free boosts that's codexes have brought.

 

I'd be surpassed if Custodians don't get any when thier time comes.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Gentlemanloser]

Jeske are you talking about using a couple of Culexus Assassins walking in front of RG so no one can shoot him (except snipers) a he walks up the board?

 

And the Culuxes need to be shot on 6+.

 

Sneaky!

[Beams]

Adeptus.

 

Potential synergy (just a small example) for our Apothecaries includes using an Inquisitor for +1 ld and Terrify to buff our casting of Purge Soul.

 

Is *anyone* serously suggesting that our Apothecaries, or even any of our Psychic units, have points costs based on that potential synergy?

 

No?

 

Well you must, if you assert that points costs are based on synergies with other units.

 

Prot bought it up, I'd been staying clear of it. But Codexes bring 'free' buffs.

 

It's unfair to compare index units with the freebies that the codexes have given the lucky few at them moment. Chapter Tactics, extra powers, relics, warlord traits, stratagem. All free boosts that's codexes have brought.

 

I'd be surpassed if Custodians don't get any when thier time comes.

Maybe they have?

 

But you could rock a Grandmaster with +1 LD from the trait and +1 LD from a banner (so LD 11) to purge soul with an inqusitor to terrify (-1 to your enemy)

 

Since you are basically guaranteed to have a banner and a Grandmaster of some form, I guarantee that this was playtesters with purge soul, especially since purge soul is super powerful.

 

Against a guard flier (LD 7), you are rolling 11+d6 vs their 6+d6, meaning, at Max you can do 17 v 7, so drop it by 10 wounds. Is that unlikely, yes. But for them to tie you, you'd need to roll a 1 and they'd need to roll a 6, so most likely you'll do (avg 14.5 vs 9.5) 5 wounds.

 

That's a brutal Combo, which with the addition of one model, is totally doable in a standard list.

 

They most likely balanced the point cost for the GK around not having a -1 to LD, but that's prolly why the Inquisitor is 55 base, since -1 LD is huge.

[Chronos Darkhelmet]

 

Adeptus.

 

Potential synergy (just a small example) for our Apothecaries includes using an Inquisitor for +1 ld and Terrify to buff our casting of Purge Soul.

 

Is *anyone* serously suggesting that our Apothecaries, or even any of our Psychic units, have points costs based on that potential synergy?

 

No?

 

Well you must, if you assert that points costs are based on synergies with other units.

 

Prot bought it up, I'd been staying clear of it. But Codexes bring 'free' buffs.

 

It's unfair to compare index units with the freebies that the codexes have given the lucky few at them moment. Chapter Tactics, extra powers, relics, warlord traits, stratagem. All free boosts that's codexes have brought.

 

I'd be surpassed if Custodians don't get any when thier time comes.

Maybe they have?

 

But you could rock a Grandmaster with +1 LD from the trait and +1 LD from a banner (so LD 11) to purge soul with an inqusitor to terrify (-1 to your enemy)

 

Since you are basically guaranteed to have a banner and a Grandmaster of some form, I guarantee that this was playtesters with purge soul, especially since purge soul is super powerful.

 

Against a guard flier (LD 7), you are rolling 11+d6 vs their 6+d6, meaning, at Max you can do 17 v 7, so drop it by 10 wounds. Is that unlikely, yes. But for them to tie you, you'd need to roll a 1 and they'd need to roll a 6, so most likely you'll do (avg 14.5 vs 9.5) 5 wounds.

 

That's a brutal Combo, which with the addition of one model, is totally doable in a standard list.

 

They most likely balanced the point cost for the GK around not having a -1 to LD, but that's prolly why the Inquisitor is 55 base, since -1 LD is huge.

Sadly, I think that the point at which every thinking process stops is that GW internally playtests units and equips within the *narrative* way to play, which is where all the huge messy failure comes from.

 

In fact, since in narrative games you may cast as many clone powers as you have in the list, this means that you could potentially take down e.g. 2 IG flyers per turn with repeated Purge Souls. In balanced games, which is where all things should be playtested but actually this is not, your single Purge Soul will likely place those 5 mortals and that's it.

 

I frankly foresee balance in the new 40k only when GW will drop out the narrative system concentrating back on the balanced alone, but doubt this will ever happen an any point in the future.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah Beams, but if they have, balanced our units by the existence of other non codex imperial units, then they must have also balanced custodians in regards to paladin. ;)

 

Either all imperial units are balanced with relation to the existence and possible use of all other imperial units.

 

Like RG running with Assassins.

 

Or none are.

 

And units are pointed solely on what they individually bring to the table.

 

And nothing else.

 

Again i'll make the point about buffs being worth more in some cases than others and that surely the points increase for bringing those buff should change depending on this.

 

Draigo should cost more when buffing ws/bs 3 units over ws/bs 2.

 

RG should cost more when used with UM marines. And less when he isn't.

 

But none of this happens.

 

There is no synergy consideration to a units point cost. None.

 

GW points on only what a unit brings to the table.

 

Not how we decide to use them. Or with whom.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Gentlemanloser]

Also Inquisitors cannot be pointed around bringing terrify.

 

Becuase they are not psykers.

 

They *can* be. But they also might not be.

 

And theres no point difference. Being a psyker isn't even a cost. But a free choice.

 

The inquisitor loses nothing by becoming a psyker.

 

Well unless you want to say the trade off in points is now becoming sucesstible to all anti psyker rules in the game...

Edited August 26, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Gentlemanloser]

Great point on the +1 ld Beams! I love purge soul atm, might have to look at using that trait on my warlord!

[Zamtro]

Either all imperial units are balanced with relation to the existence and possible use of all other imperial units.

 

Or none are.

 

 

That's a fairly solid absolute dude, specially as has been said, 1 is an Index entry and they other is codex. The 2 can't have a proper comparison until they're both in proper format. But even in the mean time, Would you take Custodians instead of Paladins, and if not, Why? 

Edited August 26, 2017 by Zamtro

[Gentlemanloser]

We were all index units. Had to have been balanced versus all there. And our Codex bought next to nothing in points balancing. All our Codex stuff was *free*. So that's hardly an issue.

 

Personally i've thought about using custodians.

 

But i don't because i like the psychic phase too much. And my warrior mage space paladin.

[Zamtro]

Psychic powers are strong... probably has something to do with the point difference. And deepstrike.

[Waking Dreamer]

Minimum unit for Paladins is 3. Paladins are an elite slot. To have one unit of paladins in your list is only 165 points. Paladins synergies extremely well with GK apothecaries (increasing their survivability tremendously). 

 

Think about it, GK Apothecaries ALSO share the same slot as Paladins  - Elite. Therefore, 3 Paladins + 2 GK apothecaries is enough for a Vanguard detachment (plus the 1 mandatory HQ), where as little as 5 infantry models  will fulfil the 3 ELITE unit requirement to get you 1 CP.

 

As been said, Custodes are inherently TROOPS. Minimum unit number is 5 man, so for 3 Troop units that's a minimum of 15 Custodes infantry models (plus the 2 mandatory HQs) for you to start getting CPs. For Custodes to bring your list CPs you NEED 15 of them plus ALWAYS 2 HQs. And as been mentioned, they are far less versatile than Paladins, no Daemon Hammers / Smite / DtW / Psilencers / Deep Strike / Sanctuary etc...

[Gentlemanloser]

Or you can bring RG and 1 unit of Custodian for 3CP, the same as a battalion!

 

Yeah I'm using 3 pallies and 2 Apothecaries as a vanguard atm. It's great!

 

Apithecaries are amazing. Bonkers in narrative play.

[Beams]

Great point on the +1 ld Beams! I love purge soul atm, might have to look at using that trait on my warlord!

Before the codex came out, that was my go to. The reason I used a IG flier as an example was because I usually fight them, and I found the easiest way to kill them was in psychic. Purge Soul and then smite wib everyone in range.

[Corvus Fortis]

I actually played Pure GK vs Custrodes with RG and Eversor. The only problems for Pallies is Custodes t5 and 3++ on shields. If custs are without shields, pallies have good chances if they stike first, but hammerhand or halberds is a must. Custodes shooting seems weaker to me, so GK generally should outmaneuver them. Custs are slow, have no deepstrike and LR is their only transport. 

[Gnomeo]

interesting debate guys one thing I would like to point out is that paladins have not changed at all in points, power points or stats from when they were in the index.

however with codex release they have gained the choice of 3 other psychic powers and the detachment special rule. However the detachment special rule only applies if it is pure gk.

so paladins in GW eyes when they released the index with its rules before codex drop were better thus more expensive. now i believe pals are better aggressively as has been mentioned above but Custodus have soo much more survivability. the question is then what does more damage in 5-6 turns factoring in unit death?????

 

also you could grab 5man custodus and an inquisitor as a patrol detachment thus getting that terrify. 

 

I agree that there biggest limiting factor is mobility so in a gk army pals are better as gate and stormravens. however to a more defensive army!!!! they will hold the front line for the whole game.

 

with regards to points costing I think this is very hard to balance as the work better in different situations my gut feeling is they should be more points than pals but maybe not by much like 3pts per model. however there is rumour in the uk of some tournaments using power points now here I think they are tooooo cheap or paladins tooo expensive personaly i think a bit of both

 

5 man Custdodus = 14 power points 

5 man paladins = 19 power points

[Beams]

The ability to spam smite and drop vortex of Doom and Purge soul helps negate the defensive bonus.

[Waking Dreamer]

The ability to spam smite and drop vortex of Doom and Purge soul helps negate the defensive bonus.

True. Custodes are completely defenseless against smite spam (especially non-nerfed ones), which is pretty much the pew pew of choice for psyker heavy armies (in the batrep with GKs vs Magnus and Tzentch Daemons, even with all the GKs psychic defenses I was deeply concerned they were about to melt), Paladins get DtW +1 with our codex built into their cost. So defensively, you could say they're more well-rounded, and won't get hard countered by mind bullets (T5 and 3++ become useless) - which is definitely a thing with every psyker knowing smite in one form or another in this edition.

 

From simply a unit to unit comparison, Paladins would actually be a take-all-comers design, not seriously disadvantaged in whatever other unit they might face compared to custodes. I like that.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Waking Dreamer

[Gentlemanloser]

Myy opponents have come to the viewpoint that Smite is a tad OP.

 

And needs to be balanced some how.

 

Wait till i run a full Primaris Psyker force (or bc and Index libby) and spam non nerfed smites in thier face every turn! ;)

[Godeskian]

Wait till i run a full Primaris Psyker force (or bc and Index libby) and spam non nerfed smites in thier face every turn! ;)

Primaris armies have psykers? I thought they were still borrowing from regular marines?

[Gentlemanloser]

The astra telepathica.

 

GW have used Primaris a lot!

[Godeskian]

The astra telepathica.

 

GW have used Primaris a lot!

Fair enough , I'll admit I looked at a 55 point psyker as a pretty good cost for a regular smite, what I couldn't figure out was a good way to get them up the board close enough to be useful with the models I own.

[Gentlemanloser]

Inquisitors have a special rule that allows them to ride in any imperial transport.

 

So can stick them in your razors / ravens / raiders if you use those.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Godeskian]

Inquisitors have a special rule that allows them to ride in any imperial transport.

So can stick them in your razors / ravens / raiders if you use those.

Uhm, that's a bit nasty. A stormraven dropping off an even dozen smiters in turn two is an unpleasant idea.

 

And at 610 points for those twelve smiters and 300 or so for the Raven that makes for an unfriendly 1000 point list

 

Kudos, I look forward to hearing if it worked

Edited August 30, 2017 by Godeskian

[Valerian]

There is a Primaris Marine version of the Librarian, too, by the way; just to answer your question about that.