Helbrute vs Predator

[Bloody Legionnaire]

So the Chaos Predator has definitely been all the rage for players of Chaos looking for some offensive dakka output. It's got a very competitive price for the weapons options, pretty solid toughness, and a solid number of wounds as well. the x4 Lascannon kit option clocks in at about 190 pts.

The Chaos Helbrute... Which can be outfitted with just as much firepower comes in at 172.. 

 

Now, don't get me wrong, if points were not an issue I would be going for the Predator most of the time... However, since 8th edition has seen the increase in point cost across the board (due to needing to pay for weapon options) I feel the Helbrute is going to wind up being a very good alternative because of the points it's going to save you on. 

What do you guys think though? Is the rifleman dread/Helbrute as standout as it is on paper or just not tough enough for the points? I was thinking they would fit well in a footslogging Death Guard force. 

 

 

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The helbrute's big limitation is that it can't take double of any weapon. Only Weapon + Missile launcher for rifleman builds. I feel like the missile launcher is lackluster on such an expensive unit, and it's not a Twin missile launcher. I wish we could double up on twin heavy weapons, or even if we could just have a Reaper instead of the missile launcher. Twin HB + Reaper would be solid.

 

The real purpose of the helbrute is to be able to fire some nice shots while advancing up the board and putting pressure on people. It's probably better cheap, with power scourge and Reaper, Twin heavy bolter, or plasma cannon if you've got a Reroll nearby.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Drudge Dreadnought

[ChazSexington]

Legion tactics. Alpha Legion Dreads are -1 to hit, for example. Renegade Helbrutes can advance and charge. 

[Panzer]

I feel like both have their place.

Helbrutes can't take double weapon but benefit from the Helbrute Stratagem and the Legion trait plus won't be useless for a turn just because some random unit made it into melee with it (you did take the fist or scourge, didn't you?).

The Predator has the option of the sweet Predator Stratagem if you take three of them and can take double weapon, but is useless in melee and can't benefit from the Legion trait.

[Commissar K.]

Yeah as others have mentioned both have their roles and their roles differ quite a lot.

In my opinion the largest benifit gained from a Predator in this edition is long range offense in a very solid body, much more solid as Havocs for, in many cases cost as much, are easier to kill but do have the benifit of gaining better Stratagem options and Legion Traits. That aside though the best Predators keep flanks secure and force your opponents to focus on them.
Helbrutes on the other side are the best alround support that likes to hang around with the rest of your army, offer melee support where needed and ranged support to ensure the destruction of something that has been focused on before. The additional benifit here also is that they do benifit from some Legion Traits and again have a better Stratagem available to them, a really good one even this time around.
 

For Death Guard infantry forces in particular it's currently difficult to say what is best, by large because we do not know:
- What the DG Legion Trait will be, likely their 5+++ which is very nice on a Hellbrute aswell but not as essential as say the Hellbrute Stratagem of shooting twice
- What the typical DG Troop will have for weapons. It's again quite likely that theyll have the same Datasheet as that of CSM but we do not know for sure.
If they do happen to have the same Datasheet I'd say the Predator becomes more required because DG are set up to have some incredibly good melee weapons and thus offense for themselves.
- How all support characters will pan out for Death Guard. With this I mean that if we see a lot of Typhus-like characters because they too can wield Scythes and Flails then Hellbrute support becomes largely irrelevant.
There are a few Cults who I personally see benifiting more from a Hellbrute as a Predator and in many cases this is the case because these Cults arn't too special or damaging in melee. For example, a Emperor's Children Helbrute has the additional benifit of always fighting in the 'charge fight phase' and for Thousand sons the body blocking is all the more relevant so they can enjoy their massively high AP Rapid Fire.

In conclusion, because of what we might know about DG I feel that the Predator will offer them the support you want. Death Guard seem very well set up for melee and close ranged combat, in the form of their Blight Launcher (only 24"), Plague Spewer (9"), Flail of Corruption and Great Plague Cleaver, it's weapons like these who are even better when supported with long ranged combat weapons like Lascannons or even Autocannons.

If your looking to buy something I'd still wait though because we have no idea what the new spoiled DG tank will do. It's not impossible to think that it would support DG even better.

Cheers,

[the jeske]

also, cheap deep strikes can't make a hellbrute or havocks stop shoting.

[Goreshed]

I've been having pretty good luck with a Brute running whatever for a ranged weapon and using the scourge. 7 attacks, wounding on 2s against Marines and at 2 damage is pretty awesome.

[shandwen]

Helbrute: missile launchers and plasma cannon. Overheat (wound yourself) and shoot again then MoS shoot again.

It might not be super viable, but oh boy would that be fun.

Edit: my phone hates me.

Edited August 27, 2017 by shandwen

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I for some reason thought x2 twin lascannons were possible in the Index.. completely wrong about it. That's pretty disappointing. :(

[shandwen]

I for some reason thought x2 twin lascannons were possible in the Index.. completely wrong about it. That's pretty disappointing. :(

It's kinda sad that the "rifleman" dread for us is a missed launchers and lazcannons. Double twin laz would be great.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

I for some reason thought x2 twin lascannons were possible in the Index.. completely wrong about it. That's pretty disappointing. :(

It's kinda sad that the "rifleman" dread for us is a missed launchers and lazcannons. Double twin laz would be great.

The loyalist can do double twin las either so I feel a little better

[shandwen]

 

 

I for some reason thought x2 twin lascannons were possible in the Index.. completely wrong about it. That's pretty disappointing. :(

It's kinda sad that the "rifleman" dread for us is a missed launchers and lazcannons. Double twin laz would be great.

The loyalist can do double twin las either so I feel a little better

Forgeworld let's them. :/

[Commissar K.]

Its certainly true that SM have more options for their Dreadnoughts as we do but to be honest I don't think that Hellbrutes are great weapon platforms for us anyway. I say this because of the Stratagem difference we have also, as Fire Frenzy is really good but does something completely different as Wisdom of the Ancients. The difference is simple, our Hellbrute can shoot twice, their Dreadnought can be a support bubble for a turn. Both are excellent but have a different role.
Also keep in mind that the Pred from Index to Codex got a 12 point discount, making it actually cheaper as Havocs if you want to run it with full Lascannons.

As before though the worth of a Hellbrute vs Pred massively differs per Legion so that's also something to keep in mind. World Eaters and Death Guard in particular do not really seem in need of a Hellbrute due to either great Champions (Berzerkers) or recent weapon upgrades/updates (Death Guard). While other Legions basically can thake Hellbrute's instead of Cult Legion troop pockets to support their other troops, primarely in melee. Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion, Renegade or Night Lord Hellbrute's in particular are very good because they get a lot of advantage out of that Legion Trait.

I personally don't mind the lack of double ranged options for the Hellbrute at all. The Power Scourge makes it extremely well equiped for dealing with infantry and without Drop Pod/Dreadclaw tactics I don't think smashing vechicles in melee with it is all too common versus a good opponent anyway. It's combined arms design is very solid. Slap on the Hellbrute Plasma Cannon and have a good day. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Gothical]

I like the Helbrute with Twin Heavy Bolter and Power Scourge as it puts out masses of attacks both at range and in melee, benefiting the most from both Crazed and Fire Frenzy and mitigating the -1 To Hit for moving and firing Heavy weapons. The Reaper is the next option I would consider, and the Twin Lascannon if I know I can count on using the Fire Frenzy stratagem (if CP are tight I prefer the Predator for anti-tank).

[Trevak Dal]

Back in 7th I'd run dreds like how the dawn of war 1 trailer showed, as fire support for a stationary squad and it worked okay, especially when we got 4 attacks.

[MoK]

I've always taken dreads usually with Twin linked autocannons and dread fist with heavy Flamer. Good for troops and actually capable at taking on light armour, then very good in H2H even against Armour. Apart from for my WEs, they have two dread fists with heavy flamers.

[Panzer]

Well...since the Predator can't take Sonic weaponry the decision is easy anyway. Double Blastmaster + Power scourge + Doom Siren Helbrute ftw. :P

[OnboardG1]

I use a hellforged contemptor with a butcher cannon for my heavy support in my 50 power point list. It's tough and has a solid invul save. The 2+ BS is the real selling point though, and with the butcher cannon you can shred through primaris infantry and lighter vehicles. It's a good alternative to the helbrute and predator if you don't mind investing the extra points.