Building lists without Scions?

[Brother Captain Ed]

It's all there in the title.  I don't like the Tempestus and I haven't been able to get my hands on the old kasrkin models yet.  I realize that they aren't the end-all of IG infantry, but they are pretty darn good.

 

So...if you don't have loads of BS3+ plasma dropping in...what have you been doing in the list building phase to work around it?  As I brainstorm, I find I can fit lots in my lists (way more than I think) but never enough to do what I want.

[Kinstryfe]

I've been using SWS with plasma to good effect. Granted they're only 4+, but I find the 3 ablative wounds to work pretty darn well. They end up having much more effect than the HWS I take, and tend to draw less fire, probably because they're less obvious than 60mm bases. So that's one potential option.

[Tirak]

Conscripts, Heavy Weapons Teams and Guardsmen. I haven't tried to shoehorn scions into any of my lists. For infantry I've been running 2 conscript squads with 30 men in it, and 4 more infantry squads with plasma guns and heavy bolters. My "anchor" squads have the heavy bolters, my mobile squads the Plasma. Depending on the list, I try to give Plasma guns to all four squads, but if I'm low on points, a sniper rifle on an "anchor" infantry squad does the job alright while adding some flexibility. Your elites will be filled out easily by your commissars, and then depending on how you run your army, you'll mix in what you need there. For me, I bring 2 Officers of the Fleet, but that's because I run flyer heavy. A Command Squad with plasma guns gives you reliable shooting, but it's a deep point sink and I'm personally not a fan. Fast Attacks for me are always Sentinels. Because I run flyers, the category isn't super important to me, but I like brigades, so I've got to pay the tax. Sometimes I'll run lascannon Sentinels, and they're good at drawing fire, but most of the time it's a point sink and they don't hit anything. Artillery is your heavy hitters. I'm a fan of Earthshaker Batteries as they're Immobile, so they ignore being assaulted, and only cost 80 points. Lascannon HWTs are a cheap way to bring on Lascannons, and they rip apart monstrous creatures and vehicles pretty good, give them an officer to give them orders and they're very effective. If you run tanks, Pask is an autoinclude, at only 10 points more than a Tank Commander, who should always be taken instead of a normal tank. Normal IG tanks are crap, but a TC is golden. Early on I was running Pask and 2 Tank Commanders, steadily I've been swapping them out for flyers, and having an excellent amount of luck so I'm still moving in that direction.

 

A somewhat recent include for me has been a Supreme Command Detachment of 3-4 Primaris Psykers depending on the list. They have proven to be amazingly useful in every battle, so they're a staple for my lists now.

 

The problem with Guard is we're a gunline army with unreliable shooting, so we make up for it by pouring on fire. Punisher Vultures with Heavy 40, Earthshakers with 2d6 take the highest, 30 man conscript squads with 120 shots. Weight of fire wins the day, and no one pours on the weight like Guard. Building Brigades is a great way to teach yourself how to build a balanced list as it requires you to bring a smattering of everything. Eventually you'll start to mix and match what you like and what you don't like and you'll refine things until you start taking Franken Companies of 5 or so detachments (until your club goes into training mode for a tourney and you look up ITC rules :P). Mordian Glory has made a bunch of videos about 8th edition guard and one of the key things he says, that I very much agree with, is there's very few bad choices with the guard. Rarely is it that taking a unit is outright harming your chance for victory.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

I use scions to bring some quality shooting and a degree of mobility into my lists. However, I have been using Rough Riders with two plasma guns in a similar role. They serve as back field harrassers and objective grabbers. Their shooting isn't as accurate but they are a bit more durable with two wounds each. They are also good at tying up artillery parks and tanks.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

If you don't have kasrkin, there's always the conversion route. Cadian Respirator heads or Hazardous environment kits from FW ( or a third party, found here), and a bit of green stuff will get you some decent look a likes. 

 

I have invested heavily in the Storm troopers for my guard army. I used to like dropping them in to harrass my opponent's rear line, or to use them as dragoons in chimeras to assault his front line. Though Scions were garbage in 6th and 7th compared to the 5th edition Stormies. Now with the re worked game mechanics they're good. 

 

I'd need more on your play style to really help you out. If you want to play mechanized, look into the Krieg rules, and then you can just do some minor conversion work on some standard troopers to make them fit the bill without selling a kidney.

[HenricusTyranicus]

I'm a big fan of just endlessly repeating units of guardsmen with a cheap heavy weapon and a plasma gun. Dig in and shoot, while the conscript hordes get in the enemy's face.

[duz_]

There's also this article too

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336653-are-militarum-tempestus-a-necessity/

[Otto von Bludd]

I haven't run any Tempestus (I just sold my Tempestus army) or conscripts and my lists revolve around 6 Infantry Squads, 3 Sents, 3 HWTS, 3 Company Commanders and 3 Command Squads to form a Brigade.   I then divide that force into 3 identical groups which can function on their own or deploy together and use the remaining points to add vehicle support.  It has worked quite well so far though I will say that adding Rough Riders or an Assassin for the outflank/deepstrike potential really helps, since I'm not using Scions for that purpose. 

[mertbl]

I've always taken stormtroopers. The ability to be anywhere is huge. Even with The random DS of past editions, it was worth it. You can build a list without them but you are handicapping yourself.

[Zeller]

I use guardsmen. That's what the guard is for. There is nothing to work around. There are heavy weapons spread across sentinels, HWS, and tanks. The special weapons are likewise in small teams. That's it.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Zeller

[Tirak]

I've always taken stormtroopers. The ability to be anywhere is huge. Even with The random DS of past editions, it was worth it. You can build a list without them but you are handicapping yourself.

I feel the role is better filled by flyers quite frankly. The ability to zoom across the board suddenly and unload lascannons, punisher cannons or a host of other heavy weapons into anyone, including characters should your enemy make a mistake in movement, grants superior utility. A squad of scions with plasma guns is a nice surprise force, but not durable. Compare that to a 14-15 wound model with a 3+ save, unassaultable and forcing all shooting attacks made at it at -1.

 

Stormies can do a great job with a certain kind of list, but there's ways to build guard that don't need them, and are just as well off for not having them.

[mertbl]

Yeah but you could get 3-4 of those squads for the cost of a valk and hit on 3's instead of 5's.

Not unassaultable. I have a raven guard army that would chew a flyer list to pieces.

[Tirak]

Yeah but you could get 3-4 of those squads for the cost of a valk and hit on 3's instead of 5's.

Not unassaultable. I have a raven guard army that would chew a flyer list to pieces.

 

Thunderbolts and Punisher Vultures. Valkyries and Vendettas are the least of our airborne options.

[Brother Captain Ed]

My issue is that my list dojo-ing always devolves into gunlines without Scions. Mechanzied is too expensive now, airborne is too inaccurate (and I don't use FW), and an armored company is all of the above: too static, too expensive, too inaccurate.

 

Scions are benefit hugely from deep strike, hit on 3, and are cheap. If I am going to a tournament, I'm having a hars time finding legit ways to leave them behind.

[Halfpint100]

I disagree with mechanised being to pricey. I do twin heavy flamer chimeras @ 109 points x 3 with infantry/ sws in and they always get their points back, either as distractions or burning stuff. and they always kill stuff no matter their remaining wounds! (autohit is a godsend). I combine them with 3 hellhounds. I find opponents have issues dealing with 6 flamer tanks and if they do, the rest of my army is usually unscathed. Hard to deal with that many vehicles at T7, especially when you park hellhounds next to opponents warlords, going "blow it up, I DARE you, 4+ explodes with a command dice re-roll I DARE you!" 

 

the extra mobility is also useful i suppose. Scions help it; 11 dudes with 6 plasma weapons deepstriking behind their lines. With 6 flamer tanks in front, it usually equals a boxed in opponent and if you can lock them down, they can dominate the game. I imagine 6 flamer chimeras with a flamer infantry squad could be fun! 156 points for the chimera and the squad thats 936 points for 60 dudes, 6 flamers and 12 heavy flamers. I am tempted to do that myself now..... combine with scions and you are set!

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Everything being able to assault/neutralize also makes transports more useful this edition. They also provide screens for assaulting without los / overwatch.