How well was the Lion and Curze rivalry handled?

[b1soul]

This rivalry was introduced by ADB and I loved the concept.

 

I think Savage Weapons and Prince of Crows are sufficient...I find the fights in Unremebered Empire and Angels of Caliban to be really gratuitous

 

We don't need a whole string of Curze vs. Lion fights, just the two really good ones in Savage Weapons and AoC

 

What say you guys? Any thoughts?

Edited August 27, 2017 by b1soul

[bluntblade]

I rather wish Curze had fled Ultramar and got entangled elsewhere.

[Felix Antipodes]

While I didn't mind it at first, I think that plot line has run its course. AoC put a good end to it and since there is no real reason for them to cross paths again in the series.

[DarkChaplain]

I think The Unremembered Empire is what made it tedious and dull. It amped up Curze's power level and made him fight what, three Primarchs in the book, then escape for another book when we finally get a finished fight?

 

TUE could've completely avoided Curze and focused on, you know, Imperium Secundus and Sanguinius coming to Ultramar. Curze's escape could still have happened, maybe with a bout against Vulkan, but he never needed to fight Guilliman and the Lion. Simply escaping would've made the Lion stalk him to the ends of Ultramar, and having hidden the escape, and previous capture, of Curze from Guilliman would've made Roboute suspicious enough of his brother.

 

I think AoC handled it exceptionally well and wrapped it up nicely. It really was the mid-section that makes it feel repetitive because it adds so little to the arc. As if the reader, or the Primarchs present, or the peripheral characters or Perpetuals, really needed another confrontation with him to realize how bat:cuss insane he is. But then, that's just one of the myriad problems The Unremembered Empire had.

Edited August 27, 2017 by DarkChaplain

[veterannoob]

I'm a fan (and I think a large portion of BL readership as well) of seeing the occasional Primarch fight.

[Mellow]

The fact that Curze has effectively fought against Vulkan, Sanguinius, Guilliman and The Lion (and survived) is just plain terrible.

 

Granted The Lion did the trademark backbreaker WWE move but he should have been killed long ago.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Now I havent re-read TUE in a while, but I didnt think Curze fought against all three at the same time, or even legitly fought them.

 

I remembering him ambushing them, playing to his strengths, and leading the Lion and Guilliman through a merry chase that ended in massive explosions rather than crossed blades...and Vulkan just hulked out on him.

[Mellow]

Yeah. I said he fought them all. I didn't say he fought them all at the same time. Anyway. I feel he should have been killed by one of those 4 confrontations because he is a freak and I dislike him.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Yeah. I said he fought them all. I didn't say he fought them all at the same time. Anyway. I feel he should have been killed by one of those 4 confrontations because he is a freak and I dislike him.

 

 

I can hardly refute logic of that caliber. 

[Roomsky]

My only issue with it is that primarch fights have been way too overplayed in this series, Curze especially. For beings first and foremost created to act as generals, they get into a stunning amount of fist-fights with each other. The reason so few primarchs die during the heresy is probably because it was conceived that, stunningly enough, legions were engaged in the fighting, rather than their leaders.

 

Now, I think its handled brilliantly in Savage Weapons and Prince of Crows, The Lion doesn't strike me as one to pass up the opportunity to assassinate Curze then and there, and they both seemed appropriately salty afterwards, likely prompting the rematch. It all seems a little contrived beyond that, Curze fights Vulkan (Because he's CRAZY), Curze uses himself as bait (not as bad, but he would have been scarier if he was barely seen), Curze fights Vulkan again (because VULKAN is CRAZY), Curze fights Sanguinius (BECAUSE PRIMARCHS FIGHTAN), and then Curze and the Lion have their final bout, not something I thought was necessary but handled well enough.

 

I really wish it had been played a little more like Know no Fear to be honest, with Lorgar and Guilliman speaking at a distance before their forces go to war. Curze could have had the same conversation with Sanguinius, for example, but a battle between them smacks more of fan service than anything else.

[b1soul]

Need to correct myself

 

 

I thought the first fight in Savage Weapons is nicely wrapped up in Prince of Crows...I found every other Primarch fight with Curze unnecessary

 

I guess you could throw in Curze's mauling of Dorn...but I don't think that counts as a fight.

[HeritorA]

This rivalry was introduced by ADB and I loved the concept.

 

I think Savage Weapons and Prince of Crows are sufficient...I find the fights in Unremebered Empire and Angels of Caliban to be really gratuitous

 

We don't need a whole string of Curze vs. Lion fights, just the two really good ones in Savage Weapons and AoC

 

What say you guys? Any thoughts?

 

Savage Weapons and vendetta in the 'Prince of Crows' were enough. And they were amazing - A D-B outdid himself where. Both sides were exactly as they sghould have been.

But no - cause IS was an empty box with no ideas what to do with it - they make a big named terrorist from Curze and landed him on Macragge.

Hope Ruinstorm is the last time we will see Curze in the HH.

 

I'm a fan (and I think a large portion of BL readership as well) of seeing the occasional Primarch fight.

Not the Curze involved. There are 16 Primarchs left to chose (minus Curze and Manus). Stop making authors writing stupid stuff

[b1soul]

I don't think Corax's encounter with Curze counts as a fight

[HeritorA]

I don't think Corax's encounter with Curze counts as a fight

It wasn't a fight - just a preambule for it. But Curze again been shown in all his 'dirty and scary' glory

In new fluff everything is explained by 'warp did it now'.

In Horus Heresy now it's 'Curze was where' meme

[Claws and Effect]

I'd like to see an actual fight between Corax and Curze for a couple reasons.

 

1) The first encounter was cut short when Corax (wisely) retreated from a fight he knew he couldn't win. Tired Corax vs fresh Curze AND Lorgar wouldn't end well for Corax, and he knew it. There is another reason he left that leads right into reason:

 

2) Out of all the Primarchs, Corax and Curze are probably the most evenly matched, almost to the point of being mirrors of each other.

 

If the right author did it, it could be an awesome fight.

[b1soul]

Never gonna happen though...and yet anither Curze fight would be comical at this point.

 

Maybe...just maybe the could fit in a sparring session or a brawl in one of the Primarch novellas?

 

In First Heretic, Corax tucked his tail between his legs and fled (or executed a tactical withdrawal) depending on your perspective.

 

I do think Curze got the verbal edge over Corax...but later, Thorpe does a bit of salvaging in Raven's Flight.

[Augustus]

It's just a shame that Curze was used for so many confrontations. Dorn, Lion, Guillimen, Sanguinius, Vulcan.

I loved Savage Weapons and the Corax angle. Too bad we Corax wasn't used much in regards to him. They kinda used him as every Primarchs' Boogeyman.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

It's just a shame that Curze was used for so many confrontations. Dorn, Lion, Guillimen, Sanguinius, Vulcan.

I loved Savage Weapons and the Corax angle. Too bad we Corax wasn't used much in regards to him. They kinda used him as every Primarchs' Boogeyman.

 

To be fair, he was a fairly scary bastard

[b1soul]

He was Corax's boogeyman

 

 

The other loyalist primarchs were primarily afraid that Curze's visions of ruin would come true...they weren't afraid that big, bad Curze would whoop their butts

[Calas Typhon]

He was Corax's boogeyman

 

 

The other loyalist primarchs were primarily afraid that Curze's visions of ruin would come true...they weren't afraid that big, bad Curze would whoop their butts

 

Dorn was

[b1soul]

No, Dorn was not.

 

Read Lightning Tower/Dark King

 

Dorn was afraid of Curze's visions coming true

 

Primarchs generally aren't afraid of fighting each other.

 

Even Corax was only unnerved by Curze's similarity to himself, like a twisted reflection.

[bluntblade]

Corvus fled because dying would leave his men to be hacked apart by Sevatar and the NL elite.

 

Dorn's fears were all very philosophical when you get down to it.

[HeritorA]

Corvus fled because dying would leave his men to be hacked apart by Sevatar and the NL elite.

 

Dorn's fears were all very philosophical when you get down to it.

And that's how it should be. The soul of the Legions magnified. On the other hand Corax was tyranic too (in small retrospective).

Just see what he has done to the 'Terrans' in his Legion.

As for the Curze vs Lion rivalry - it is in the past and should not be resurfaced again in the HH books. Enough of that CvL already. We already have 5 rounds.