How valuable are CPs?

[Gentlemanloser]

While it might point to intention, we can't use a faq for one army to rule for another.

 

I usually find myself spending 2cp on psychic onslaught, a couple on rerolls, which only leaves a couple left.

 

I want to get the most bang from them, so would rather use only in death on whichever other HQ I'm using. Draigo, Voldus, GM.

 

You say just having it influences your opponent. Heck i'd have them worry I'd use it on a hammer apothecary if i still have the cp left.

[Seizeman]

Objective secured is barely an argument. I've played about 25 games and watched a few more, and in all those games the situation where there was more than one unit close to the same objective has happened like 2 or 3 times, not counting cases where one of the units was a single monster or vehicle, which is absolutely irrelevant to objective secured. You must consider that 3" from the center of the objective is a very small radius, and if a 5+ models unit is defending it, you are not goint to take it, objective secured or not, unless you kill the unit first. That terminator standing next to my paladins can't even get close to the objective.

 

How does it matter that you unlock CP with your terminators, when you are playing a bad army in exchange? 15 paladins with 3 CP will always be better than 15 terminators with 6 CP. And that comparison is not even realistic as you will always have strike squads to get the battalion. In fact, the Paladins will usually give you more CP because they allow you to unlock the vanguard detachment on top of the battalion.

 

Your argument about buffs is absolutely wrong. Brotherhood banner is an additive buff, so the number of attacks the receiving unit has is irrelevant, it's only dependant on the number of models and their WS, weapon, etc. You are getting exactly the same number of attacks and the same amount of damage no matter who receives the buff.

 

On the other side, the Chaplain is multiplicative, so it gets better the most attacks the receiving unit has. So in actuality is just the opposite than what you said, and the Paladins get more benefit from the Chaplain than the terminators do.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd love strikes to fill a battalion. But these days I'm looking elsewhere for cheaper troops just to get that 3cp.

 

What i need are units on the ground to off set the 2 ndk, Paladin and other GM i want to deep strike in.

 

And i find interceptors great for this. As they can start on board, and shunt to emulate having more units that can deep strike.

 

What other choices do we have of units in board?

 

The Raven? Great unit. Expensive and suffers from the same issues Razors do. No psychics and unless you take 3 ( which mostly no one ever will...) doesn't help you unlock CP. Plus can't help you win objectives and doesn't help you stay in the game if all your other units get wiped.

 

Razors. Again great units, but I've covered those above.

 

I simply love or deepstrike in 8th. And it fits my head cannon of how the GK deploy and strike.

 

And interceptors give me the best of both worlds. Units on board, psychics and unlock cp from outrider detachments.

 

All for 4 points more than a Strike.

[Seizeman]

Strikes are already hard to use because of how fragile are for their cost. Interceptors are even more expensive and more fragile because you are not taking them in transports, so you are just accentuating their problems. Strikes on razors (or ravens) give you units on board, are also psychics and unlock even more cp, so I don't see your point. Also razorbacks (and ravens) are some of the best units in the game right now. The only good use for interceptors is to have one unit jumping between ruins to capture objectives.

 

If you for some reason hate strikes and razorbacks and want to go all in on the deep strike, better take some allied Imperial guard or an inquisitor/primaris psyker and 6 acolytes for cheap units on the board+ objective holders on deployment zone. You won't be beating horde armies or opponents that know how to protect themselves from deep strike, tho.

[Gentlemanloser]

1 unit of interceptors is 125 points.

 

You deploy them on board out of los so they are perfectly safe. Safer than a strike squad in a razor.

 

1 unit of strikes plus thier razor transport is 205 points. 100 points of that has no psychic potential and offers no help unlocking cp

 

HQ aside 375 points of interceptors gives 1cp and 3 psychic units

 

615 points of strikes gives 3 psychic units, with a potential of 3 cp, with an extra 150 odd points for a second hq.

 

Plus the razors can be destroyed first turn, leaving the strikes in the open and less than mobile.

 

Sure for overall points spent, you can squeeze out slightly more cp with strikes in a battalion.

 

But i'd rather spend those points in more elites and hqs.

 

Edit. Won't be beating hordes with interceptors over strikes? 60 point difference for the same number of storm bolter shots? I don't see the massive i lose choice there.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Seizeman]

You won't be beating hordes without units on the board that can kill stuff. Razorbacks and Stormravens do that.

 

What happens if the opponent deploys something like 3 space marine scout units or 30 gaunts or something similar to deny your deep strike?

 

If you deep strike first turn, it will be far from the enemy main force, 9 inches away from the scouts. You will deploy your units, kill the scouts and then be unable to charge or shoot at rapid fire range against their main force. On the enemy's turn, they are free to shoot your army and countercharge if they want to. If they have first turn, it gets even worse, as they will deny even more deep strike space,

 

If you don't deep strike first turn, you will have to use your interceptors, wich will most of the time not have enough fire to kill the enemy wrap, but let's assume they do. The opponent, on their turn, proceeds to obliterate them (that's 375 points down the drain to kill maybe 100 points of chaff) and possibly fill the holes that your interceptors might (might) have made on the wrap. Then you are on the same situation, except our interceptors are dead and your opponent is getting some points in the process.

 

With razorbacks and stormravens, not only do you kill the chaff a lot faster, but a lot safer too. With the raven you can even kill some dreadnought or monster that could be a threat  for your alpha striking units. You kill their wrap, but your strikes are safe inside their transports. Also, they are better positioned for the next turn. In some cases, you can keep shooting with the transport for 1 more turn to weaken thenm even more. Then you disembark your strikes (they will also be in perfect position for rapid firing and guaranteeing a charge) and deploy your deep strike units. Depending on the opponent army, you will either be able to charge through the hole you have made the previous turn or, if they are a big horde, kill their infantry with your whole army (3 strikes, 3 razorbacks (Or 2 ravens or something equivalent), your paladins, your GMNDK), leaving them with just the big monsters, which will have no choice but to assault your tanks and get counter-charged next turn.

[Gentlemanloser]

Scouts can't cover everywhere in the dz. And well if they do i look forward to creaming an army made up of a bunch of scouts.

 

And what do you do if all your razors are popped first turn by killshot quad las predators?

 

Horses for courses.

 

And if i face multiple 30 gaunt units as well, thats just as good. Those things die in droves to SB.

 

Heck even though hes 'wasted' on not having any UM, I'm even considering using RG for battalions worth of CP (and his warlord cp return) and foot slogging him behind some doomglaives.

 

Who stop him being shot, and gain a GM reroll to hit from him. The charge move bonus is just gravy.

 

I seriously don't see strikes in razors as the only way to play GK. As good as Razors are as a unit.

 

Also you say i won't have units on board to kill hordes.

 

I've got another 300 points of units on board in addition to the interceptors.

 

Unless you really want to compare 615 points in units to 375.

 

I could still have two razors on board. I could still have two doomglaives.

 

And still have interceptors over strikes.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Beams]

I vastly prefer Interceptors to strikes. They are faster, move through whatever they want, and can shunt. It's worth the few extra points, and its fairly easy to get them in spots where they can't be hit.

 

Though CP are important, they aren't important enough to waste points buying strikes for me.

 

If I'm that concerned, 3 squads of guardsman at 40 pts (plus lascannons or hbolters) and 2 CCmdrs at ≈40 gives you and additional 3, and some cheap bodies to throw in cover and on backfield objectives.

[Adeptus]

I think that the most important take-away is that none of our units suck. Terminators are in the worst position and they're still pretty good. Agonising over which units or which builds are the most cutting-edge competitive of squeeze the most bang-for-your buck out of the codex is pretty much a waste of time, as far as I'm concerned. Just paint your wardollies, build the sort of lists you'd like to play against, and have fun with it. You're not going to be shooting yourself in the foot by taking strikes and razors instead of interceptors or vice versa and you're not going to be losing games because you took terminators instead of strikes to fill your troop slots. Our army is solid enough right now that any losses can be safely put down to an opponent who was better on the day, bad luck, or maybe some OP bull:cuss from the opponents codex but I think most of that OP bull:cuss has been pretty well evened out in 8th.

[Fahlnor]

Objective secured is barely an argument. I've played about 25 games and watched a few more, and in all those games the situation where there was more than one unit close to the same objective has happened like 2 or 3 times, not counting cases where one of the units was a single monster or vehicle, which is absolutely irrelevant to objective secured. You must consider that 3" from the center of the objective is a very small radius, and if a 5+ models unit is defending it, you are not goint to take it, objective secured or not, unless you kill the unit first. That terminator standing next to my paladins can't even get close to the objective.

 

How does it matter that you unlock CP with your terminators, when you are playing a bad army in exchange? 15 paladins with 3 CP will always be better than 15 terminators with 6 CP. And that comparison is not even realistic as you will always have strike squads to get the battalion. In fact, the Paladins will usually give you more CP because they allow you to unlock the vanguard detachment on top of the battalion.

 

Your argument about buffs is absolutely wrong. Brotherhood banner is an additive buff, so the number of attacks the receiving unit has is irrelevant, it's only dependant on the number of models and their WS, weapon, etc. You are getting exactly the same number of attacks and the same amount of damage no matter who receives the buff.

 

On the other side, the Chaplain is multiplicative, so it gets better the most attacks the receiving unit has. So in actuality is just the opposite than what you said, and the Paladins get more benefit from the Chaplain than the terminators do.

Fair enough. I understand a lot of your points and, in truth, I think you're broadly right - though I also think we're looking at the game from very different perspectives.

 

Re: the buffs, I'm afraid I don't agree: Brotherhood Banner is an additive buff, insomuch as it adds a flat 1A to all models it affects. But surely you wouldn't argue that a (theoretical) single-model unit with base 10A would get as much use out of the buff as an equivalently-costed ten-model unit with base 1A? The points equivalence is vital - Terminators are cheaper than Paladins, therefore they get more attacks from the Brotherhood Banner per point spent. That seems to be how you compare a lot of your options, so I'm surprised that you do it differently in this instance.

 

The Chaplain provides two buffs. The rerolls to hit are better on the Paladin unit by an absolutely tiny margin, granting an additional 0.016 hits per point against the Terminators' 0.014 additional hits per point (excepting the Paragon, who benefits less than the Justicar as his native WS is higher, therefore gaining him fewer rerolls - 0.010 additional hits vs. 0.014 per point), but the bonus to Leadership is flat-out better on Terminators than on Paladins. Again, per point spent, adding the buffing character to the Terminators is of greater value than adding him to the Paladin unit, precisely because the Terminator unit is statistically worse and cheaper on a per-model basis.

[Muaddib]

I vastly prefer Interceptors to strikes. They are faster, move through whatever they want, and can shunt. It's worth the few extra points, and its fairly easy to get them in spots where they can't be hit.

 

Though CP are important, they aren't important enough to waste points buying strikes for me.

 

If I'm that concerned, 3 squads of guardsman at 40 pts (plus lascannons or hbolters) and 2 CCmdrs at ≈40 gives you and additional 3, and some cheap bodies to throw in cover and on backfield objectives.

+1000

That's exactly my thoughts on the matter!

[Helycon]

I'm with Seizeman on this. A good opponent will wrap everything to make sure you can't deep strike. If done well, it'll happen for the turn after as well. Another topic had a Visicast barrel posted, against Chaos Demons of Tzeentch, including Magnus. It was a tournament player and list and the GK list was FAR from optimised, but it'll give you a good idea how people can prevent your deepstriking with relative ease.

 

GW actually also had a very simple way to show you what to do if you get 2nd turn. It was a nice visual representation of how to deploy to counteract deepstriking.

 

With transports, you have a mobile platform that also shoots. Those 100 points of RB have guns as well, that can help cut down chaff. Same applies to the Raven, but it can go even further and drop that payload 1" from the thing you want to charge. It can also pop that big, scary Tyrannofex at the back.

 

And yes, it'll be up to you to protect them. A Raven has the good fortune of being a flyer and getting -1 to hit. RB's also require LOS. You can even pop smoke if you really want to make sure they survive.

[Fahlnor]

I think that the most important take-away is that none of our units suck. Terminators are in the worst position and they're still pretty good. Agonising over which units or which builds are the most cutting-edge competitive of squeeze the most bang-for-your buck out of the codex is pretty much a waste of time, as far as I'm concerned. Just paint your wardollies, build the sort of lists you'd like to play against, and have fun with it. You're not going to be shooting yourself in the foot by taking strikes and razors instead of interceptors or vice versa and you're not going to be losing games because you took terminators instead of strikes to fill your troop slots. Our army is solid enough right now that any losses can be safely put down to an opponent who was better on the day, bad luck, or maybe some OP bull:cuss from the opponents codex but I think most of that OP bull:cuss has been pretty well evened out in 8th.

I absolutely agree with the sentiment of this post and I'm thoroughly looking forward to getting back to painting my wardollies when I have the time.

 

However, I also appreciate Seizeman's point that if someone is asking for advice on a list or about various units, there's not a huge amount of value in just telling people to take whatever they like and that some units might be objectively better than others in certain situations. I think that's valuable information to have.

 

I also think it's useful for Games Workshop to have this information. They are trying to create the most balanced version of the game they can manage and having the community get into the nitty gritty of unit value can only help them to do that. That's got to be good for everyone, surely!

 

:)

[Adeptus]

However, I also appreciate Seizeman's point that if someone is asking for advice on a list or about various units, there's not a huge amount of value in just telling people to take whatever they like and that some units might be objectively better than others in certain situations. I think that's valuable information to have.

I do agree about the value of GW having access to the 'field test' data, but to be totally honest I think informing new players that Paladins > Terminators actually does a disservice to the player and the game at large. I mean, not that one nugget of information by itself, but the broader idea of constantly winnowing lists down to the most effective versions of themselves kills off creativity and personality in our armies, and ultimately winds up with every player running one of a small handful of list archetypes. This kills 40K for just about everyone.

 

Now granted, GW have stated they plan to adjust the points and keep stuff fresh through the Generals Handbook so it's important that they have an accurate understanding of the state of the game, but I truly believe the best advice you can give a noobie is to just take whatever models you really think look cool. Build your list around a theme, fall in love with your models and your army and just have fun with it. Having said that, it's never good to set a noobie up for failure by telling them to take awful units. I just don't think we have any awful units at the moment.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Adeptus

[Gentlemanloser]

I kinda disagree.

 

I know stormraven are great/efficient. I own one.

 

I don't use it as i don't enjoy fliers.

 

It's good to know is a great unit. If only for when i face them.

 

But I'm not using it out of personal taste.

 

The same can be said for knowing Terminators are totally sub par.

 

Besides there really is no modelling difference between terminators and paladin. You think plastic gk tda looks great? Great! Use it!

 

As paladin! :P

[Adeptus]

Besides there really is no modelling difference between terminators and paladin. You think plastic gk tda looks great? Great! Use it!

 

As paladin!

 

Don't be that guy. lol.

[Brother Tual]

What are people's thoughts on outsourcing CP from outside the GK book? Is it worth the loss of the chapter traits?

 

Assume its +3 CP that is being added.

[Helycon]

If you get the extra CP's from a different detachment, you still keep the GK traits in the 'pure GK' detachment.

[Seizeman]

You don't loose chapter traits. Chapter traits affect detachments, so you can get a separate Imperium detachment and keep all of your bonuses.

 

The cheapest 3 points you can get, I think, are 3 infantry squads and 2 company commander for 180 points. Or 3 conscripts squads and 2 commanders for 240 and a lot more bodies.

 

Another option is to pick an inquisitor or primaris psyke and 3-6 acolytes for 1 extra CP for 64-103 points.

 

Both options give you some units to defend objectives on your side, but add nothing special to your army. They give you some anti-infantry, but grey knights already excel at that. Generally, you want to focus on your alpha strike, and adding allies dilutes it. That's why strike squads on razorbacks (or storm ravens) are so good as units on the board, as they can play defensively and play objectives but can also add to the alpha strike, clearing infantry bubbles and joining the main force when you need them thanks to their mobility.

 

You coud pick the imperial guard battalion to save some points and then use vanguard detachments to take your GK. However, you are most likely not going to have points for 6 elites, so you will only be able to take a single vanguard detachment, which limits you to 2 HQ, and if you have those extra points, you probably want more than that. Also, it would amount to 7 total CP, the same as a strike squad battalion + a vanguard that you get with pure Grey Knights.

 

Also, objectives on your deployment are not that crucial, specially now that you have 6 less "hold objective X" objectives if playing maelstrom. In the late game, you can just send one strike squad via Gate of infinity to grab objectives on your backfield if you need to. If you really want some objective holders, the acolyte option is cheap enough, but it is not worth taking just for the CP.

[duz_]

Inquisition and Guard (or combination of both) are definitely cheap ways of getting a battalion for +3 CP as Siezeman said.

Both will fit a GK army thematically and provide some disposable bodies in the back field if necessary. 

Keeping them as their own detachment won't effect bonuses to either faction too!

[Fahlnor]

 

Besides there really is no modelling difference between terminators and paladin. You think plastic gk tda looks great? Great! Use it!

 

As paladin!

 

Don't be that guy. lol.

 

I genuinely wouldn't have thought there would be a problem with this. I mean, we all use our TDA kits to build Brother Captains and Grand Masters and Librarians - saying that the Terminator models can't also just represent Paladins seems a bit odd.

[Seizeman]

It is a bid odd indeed. There's no difference a Terminator and a Paladin. Or a GM, or a brother captain, or a librarian, for that matter.

[Beams]

Honestly, I find that running a GM-NDK eats a ton of command points (at least two turns of prognosticators (4), command rerolls for failed invuln vs lascannons (2?) And probably 1 or two for rolling three psychic dice to gate or sanctuary vs competent psykers, and 1 to make sure you get that 9" charge.

 

A battalion detachment of guard is like 200 pts and adds 3 command points and allows you to deepstrike 4 units. A brigade is like 700 and gives 9 command points and let's you deepstrike the rest of your army, and adds some long range firepower.

 

Whether or not this is your play style is a different matter, but it would let you drop some orbital bombardments!

 

Edit: as for difference between Paladin, Terminator, Grandmaster and Librarian, it usually comes down to how much bling, purity seals and how fancy of a paint job. After all, Terminator armour is Terminator armour no matter what you do to it.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Beams

[Gentlemanloser]

Or you can take an auxiliary super Heavy detatchment and RG for 360.

 

Put him as warlord and that nets you 3CP and a 4+ roll every time you spend a CP to get it back.

 

Yeah he foot slogs. And you can't gate him.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Gentlemanloser]

As for models. You don't fool me GW.

 

The picture you are using for our Brotherhood Champion is actually an old pewter Justicar.

 

The BC has no official model.