Defiler, Lethal or Lemon?

[Sorceress]

I have seen several threads talking about Helbrutes vs Predators, and many people talking about forgefiend and mauler in there lists, but I haven't seen any mention of the daddy of demon engines the Defiler.

 

Now in the index it was simply awful, brutally over cost and far from effective, but it seems to have dropped significantly in the chaos codex and will likely stay at that level in the Death Guard and Thousand Sons codex when they release. In addition to that they actually got stronger, ending up with less punishing damage charts.

 

This all started with me looking for ways to get some long range punch into my thousand sons and in the new codex the point values between a triple Las Predator and a Defiler with twin las are close . if both have a havoc launcher its like 14 points if you leave it off of the predator your looking at more like 24-25.

 

Now that is a not insignificant diffrence, and the Defiler has a lower BS but it is much more survivable, with regenerating wounds, a built in invulnerable save and more wounds. In addition the Predator mostly requires a body guard of some sort to keep it safe from deep strike assaults but the defiler is a threatening melee combatant, made much more dangerous with the scourge.

 

so assuming I was planning to sit it back and blast the hell out of things with perhaps a bit of counter charge in the event of enemies closing on it is the Defiler a useful option?

[Panzer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyLUU3O4zW8

 

Sorry, I had to. :P

[Azekai]

I have experimented with defilers in 8th and they are swingy. They are not terribly dependable in either shooting or melee, but if you get off a good cannon shot or a decent damage roll with the claws, they are going to give something a bad day. I tend to have them sit back and shoot, and if the enemy gets close have them go chainsaw claws on whatever is nearby. They are best used for killing monstrous creatures, other vehicles, or heavy multi-wound infantry (including characters).

Buffing the daemon engine with a Chaos Lord is helpful, and though I haven't tried it, I think a Dark Apostle would really help those spiky 4+ arms connect. There are also shenanigans you can get into with the daemon index, typically involving the Changeling, but I can't personally speak to that.

As far as purely a back-line artillery piece, predators are better suited to the role. They are not without their weaknesses, but they are a more reliable source of long-range offensive power. Defilers are a more durable, jack-of-all-trades unit that is master of none. 

[MasterDeath]

I think to use a Defiler or Soulgrinder as both have pretty much the same layout as a melee/shooty-unit, you have to have a good plan and, in the case of the Defiler, be willing to burn a few CP for its stratagem. If you just stay back an shoot, you are wasting the points you paid for its close combat abilities, if you charge into melee it will only hit on a 5+ so its shooting as almost wasted. Now, staying back to protect a lets say a Havoc Squad, that makes sense. If you have to move it, use one of the stratagems to help it shooting (rerolling is way better in all cases btw. so use this for the more importan daemon engine). Basically: a Defiler needs support, a tank works on its own.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Don't count on a defiler to get dakka, his BS4+ with heavy weapon is terrible.

 

But it's a great unit for tanking shot or assault. I make mine with heavy flamers and flamers (but with magnet, i could change his loadout but i feel flamers is the best with his BS).

14 wounds, 3+/5++, +1wound per turn, my last game he get shot by a baneblade and some hellblaster squad for two turn, killed 2 hellblaster who overheated while he was on smoke. He didnt manage to make a single shot/attack (i was going 2nd), but i consider him worth it as my Sicarian, hellbrute and other threat could move relativly quietly. 

 

I wouldnt consider spending a single Command point or spell on him however. Nor getting him babysit by a Chaos lord. They are other better unit for that. 

[Dhar'Neth]

I like it as a distraction Carnifex (most of the time) :) It's strength doesn't come from its killyness (it's meh for the points) but comes from its durability. It's really though and can charge multiple units easily thanks to its wide front. It also has giant footprint which helps a lot and can give cover to Rhino.

[Commissar K.]

The Defiler really is a model you should thake if you like the look of it. It can survive and packs a decent melee punch but its 4+ to hit makes it combined arms design so so. Support or not I think you can thake it for potential distraction. Its roles are all over the place, a warfare crab. Edited August 28, 2017 by Commissar K.

[the jeske]

I would like to point out that "distraction carnifexs" were A cheap B effective for their points. A defiler is neither so it can't be used in the same way. For melee a mauler is better.

 

For shoting, specially comparing to a predator or a FW dread[or even a dakka fiend with its low BS], it is hard to start the comperation. First of all blast weapons in 8th suck, and there is no option to run a defiler without the battle cannon. There is also no option to run him with two las or two reapers[not that it would make it great considering the points cost]. Add to this the fact that any support option has to be doubled or tripled to work, and we are looking at a knight points with very little efficiency. For same points we could get a lot more out maulers, use them as a "distraction". Preds and dreads are much better at shoting, with preds out classing the defiler by a mile and dreads being cheaper. So no there is no good way to run defilers, mainly because the defiler is not a good unit.

If you want to use the model, use it as a fiend or a soul grinder.

[MoK]

I use mine as distraction and holding my back field, really gives deep striking potential line breakers something to think about. Shooting maybe hit and miss, lol, H2H is strong, but it's the durability that makes them perfect t for holding your back field.

 

The main reason I take Defilers over Maulerfiends or Forge fiends is because I can't stand the mutated Daemonic looking Chaos stuff (fiends, brutes etc).

Edited August 28, 2017 by MoK

[Commissar K.]

Yeah I think in general now it's more a model preforance. I partially continue to agree with the notion that it isn't great but wanted to add to that that it isn't great in any particular role however it is the most multi-tasked model we have available and as a result I cannot say it's bad either. Having the option to deal with anything decently simply put is never bad it's just never going to destroy a specific target as well as indeed a Maulerfiend would in melee or a Predator would with ranged attacks.
One advantage it still holds though, as all Daemons is that it does have the option to synergize with many armies, so getting one never will feel like waisting money. 

In the trend of gaming with a more competitive mindset though we usually see a preforance to specific pieces that deal with a small spectrum of expected pieces really well. Its because of that reason that in many cases X ammount of weapons on the Defiler will not really come to fruition, luckily in 8th this is less the case as it was since it's initial conception because while the odds are against you a Heavy Flamer does have the potential to deal some damage to oppossing vechicles aswell. Likewise it's attacks in melee matter more than ever because there is the option for your opponent to fail a Morale check and thus suffer even more concequences.
Practice makes the Defiler in my opinion so-so, there are games where it's ability to defend objectives will make it really relevant as it can thake on all kinds of strange units tossed at it, which cannot be said for Maulerfiends or Predators for example. 

I believe that in general the Defiler as such is a model that you should thake if you like the visual design. It's a toolbox in a game that doesn't really reward that sort of design too much. It's because of that that we also never field Havocs with one Lascannon, one Missle Launcher, one Plasma Gun and one Heavy Bolter, while in essence that comes really close to what the Defiler is. 
If the game or particular house-ruels would force us to play 1 unit of each max I think it's overall evaluation would be more positive but that's not currently what 40K is. In a game like Warmachine or Malifaux pieces like this shine due to rewarding a variance of units, which in turn makes the swiss-knife design excellent.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Commissar K.]

Lastly, and that's why Im actually semi-optimistic about all Daemon Vehicles we shouldn't forget about Daemonforge, despite costing 1CP, is very good also on a Defiler. Granted a Forgefiend gets much more out of it all adds up and it all contributes to it being difficult to kill and being a good bonus to it's otherwise coin-flippy damage output.

 

DAEMONFORGE

It's even relevant for the Heavy Flamer as we're talking full re-rolls to hit and wound for either the Shooting or Fight phase or both. I cannot say that's a bad CP to spend. As a result it doesn't need to have a baby-sitter at all, all it wants is some CP to make it through. Most units love this offcourse but it does mean that Defiler in a key place can make a key difference.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Sception]

Because of its low accuracy and smallish number of attacks, and random damage, it tends to eat a lot of cp if you want it to actually hurt anything, which isn't great. Best weapons on it are probably twin heavy flames and combi flamer, due to the accuracy issues. It is pretty tough, though. There's always better options, but after the points drop I don't hate it.

[Warsmith Uveron]

Using Daemon Forge and a supporting Chaos Lord, I ran a list with 3 forgefieds and a defiler, fighting a codex marine list. Using a Sourcers to buff shooting, and stratagems, they worked well and ripped though units fast. 

 

But the list was focused on buffing them! 

[Lord Ragnarok]

Using Daemon Forge and a supporting Chaos Lord, I ran a list with 3 forgefieds and a defiler, fighting a codex marine list. Using a Sourcers to buff shooting, and stratagems, they worked well and ripped though units fast. 

 

But the list was focused on buffing them! 

So how did the Defiler perform?

 

 

I'm dismayed that the Defiler is still subpar. I have two(one built, one in box plastic wrapping since 4th ed dex). I will probably be stubborn and make them work. Besides feeding them stratagems what are other ways to mitigate their sub par-ness? 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Lord Ragnarok

[Sception]

Feed them command points.  Cast prescience.  Keep a lord, or better Abaddon nearby.

 

Alternatively, remove it's arms and the nozzle of the battlecannon, replace with a forgefiend's hades cannons and ectoplasma head respectively that you have left over after building a maulerfiend, then call it a forgefiend.  A forgefiend isn't a lot better than a Defiler, but it is a little better, in that it has a lot more shots to mitigate the iffy ballistic skill on daemon engines, and it doesn't pay a bunch of points for melee stats that would motivate you to move it and suffer the heavy weapon penalty as well.

 

But really, the defiler's ok.  It's not great, but it's not awful anymore, either.  If you like it, run it, just do so in a troops heavy list with a lot of CP to spare.  Again, Abaddon is their friend.

 

Abaddon is everybody's friend.

[Mekhitar]

I like running a defiler - but I pretend it doesn't have any guns. Move and advance if you can't make the charge - treat the battle cannon as a bonus. Even with a good BS the cannon isn't great (my husband, an AM player, is always complaining about how trash it is... and he's right). Since I am running it as a melee machine I swap the flamer out for the flail, which helps with the low attack problem and drops the price, too.

 

Remember that it has smoke launchers, which synergizes with advancing and makes the defiler a giant distraction; I like to couple it with a first turn warp time to literally put it in the enemy's face. It is darn tanky, a tough nut to crack. It's best targets are vehicles, at s16 and with a multiple dmg stat, so make a beeline for the enemy preds and rifle dreds and the like if you can.

 

It takes quite a bit to put it down, and when you shove it into the enemy face, your rhinos are free to deliver zerkers or your preds to lay down fire unmolested.

 

I wouldn't burn cp on it just to make it generally better; save it for a do-or-die moment.

 

And the model is sweet...

[Trevak Dal]

I think to use a Defiler or Soulgrinder as both have pretty much the same layout as a melee/shooty-unit, you have to have a good plan and, in the case of the Defiler, be willing to burn a few CP for its stratagem. If you just stay back an shoot, you are wasting the points you paid for its close combat abilities, if you charge into melee it will only hit on a 5+ so its shooting as almost wasted. Now, staying back to protect a lets say a Havoc Squad, that makes sense. If you have to move it, use one of the stratagems to help it shooting (rerolling is way better in all cases btw. so use this for the more importan daemon engine). Basically: a Defiler needs support, a tank works on its own.

I don't know, I would look at the close combat abilities as insurance against someone dropping a load of terminators or drop pod of Sternguard near my other tanks along with scrub infantry (cultists) just like with a helbrute with a fist and a gun.

 

If you never use the powerfists it's a waste-but if it's because it deterred your opponent from coming at them, you get to shoot more.

[Azekai]

And the model is sweet...

This is the real benefit of running a defiler or two... rule of cool.

 

Pred stats are good but the stock models are boring to look at.

[Panzer]

 

I think to use a Defiler or Soulgrinder as both have pretty much the same layout as a melee/shooty-unit, you have to have a good plan and, in the case of the Defiler, be willing to burn a few CP for its stratagem. If you just stay back an shoot, you are wasting the points you paid for its close combat abilities, if you charge into melee it will only hit on a 5+ so its shooting as almost wasted. Now, staying back to protect a lets say a Havoc Squad, that makes sense. If you have to move it, use one of the stratagems to help it shooting (rerolling is way better in all cases btw. so use this for the more importan daemon engine). Basically: a Defiler needs support, a tank works on its own.

I don't know, I would look at the close combat abilities as insurance against someone dropping a load of terminators or drop pod of Sternguard near my other tanks along with scrub infantry (cultists) just like with a helbrute with a fist and a gun.

 

If you never use the powerfists it's a waste-but if it's because it deterred your opponent from coming at them, you get to shoot more.

 

I guess that depends on what kind of army you face. Shoot the choppy and chop the shooty.

[Lord Ragnarok]

 

And the model is sweet...

This is the real benefit of running a defiler or two... rule of cool.

 

Pred stats are good but the stock models are boring to look at.

 

I'm tempted to shake my fists at the gods and run both in a spearhead. 

[Commissar K.]

Thats the spirit, I feel most subpar units either got upgraded or nice stratagems that are easy to use... except... regular CSM...

[Trevak Dal]

They are troops. Troops are ground holders, they can fight but you can get higher concentrations of heavy and special weapons elsewhere. They are there to drop lots of dice into scrub units you shouldn't bother your elites with.

 

As such, they are fine to me.

[Warsmith Uveron]

 

Using Daemon Forge and a supporting Chaos Lord, I ran a list with 3 forgefieds and a defiler, fighting a codex marine list. Using a Sourcers to buff shooting, and stratagems, they worked well and ripped though units fast. 

 

But the list was focused on buffing them! 

So how did the Defiler perform?

 

it did well, sat at the front of my lines took lots of wounds, then was able to move up the table when almost dead and scare my opponent with its CC skill. I had to feed it a pile of command points. 

 

But my army build maximized this by having lots of small units of cultists.  

[Lord Ragnarok]

Trevak, that seems sound to me, however we should probably debate that in the troops thread ;)

[Prot]

Lemon or lethal?

 

What if I told you it was a lethal lemon?

 

Nah, I'm not buying it either.

 

Aside from myself there are very few CSM type players around me, and I have multiple play groups. The most I've seen of CSM is at the local GW store during our Konor campaign days which are filled with Xenos, and a sprinkling of revolving CSM players.

 

Of all these battles that I have played in or witnessed, a grand total of zero players have used a Defiler.

 

Me and one other guy have used them and he's not really a CSM player. ( more Renegades)

 

I'd probably drop them a smidge more and give them BS 3, but traditionally Daemon engine units used to have Possessed as a special rule which punished you by lowering the BS and WS of the model for this 'advantage '.

 

The funny thing is that a key piece of the old advantage doesn't exist but the penalty still does. I think they really should revisit and revise this.

 

I don't mind that it has a mixed role but you're paying a lot of points for those two roles and typically you can only use one of those roles ( either stand and shoot, or move to assault but your shooting stinks)

 

Ironically this is why I don't care for my Redemptors. And I field two if them. They suffer a damage table, and moving and shooting is quite finicky. The Redemptors average about 202 each.

 

Even though I don't thnk you will see Redemptors in maximized lists, I take them the same reason I take Defilers.... too cool for school.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Prot