Defiler, Lethal or Lemon?

[Grendaxe]

Personally i think defiler should have the daemonic machine spirit rule. Because its such a dual shoot/melee unit it shouldn't be penalized so heavily for moving (with the already WS4+)
 

Also i do not really agree that the melee stats should degrade when wounds are lost. I mean it is already a pretty slow unit. Before it gets into combat its already useless (WS4+ with 2 Attacks?)

 

I like the idea of a defiler getting enraged. No longer caring about where he is shooting (WS6+) but hes WS improving to WS2+ with 4 attacks for example).

Lethal in close combat but with a only 3'' movement he can be countered pretty easily. Enemy could circle around him and shoot him for the last wounds or try to charge and try to kill him before he hits back. But at least this way he actually has a impact on the game rather than just looking pretty.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Grendaxe

[Trevak Dal]

Daemon engine units should either always blow up, or blow up on a greater range.

 

Yeah the movement penalty whumps hard too. I have a defiler and I used it a handful of times since I started playing with chaos. The most successful time was in 5th edition playing a sort of "throw all our stuff against the wall and see what sticks" apocalypse game where I got a lucky hit and touched ALL of a unit of wraith guard and killed them.

 

It got blown apart by Dark Reapers and the C4 sandwich that Swooping Hawks can do when they deep strike. The points cost in 6th-7th just kept it collecting dust. I considered throwing it away, or scrapping it for terrain. It looks bad next to the newer daemon engines.

 

I like the idea of making it into a Count as Forgefiend...and I can lay hands on another real cheap too.

[Sception]

With it's crab legs, and the dual roles of melee and fire support, the Defiler really could & should have been given some sort of 'stable firing platform' rule to ignore the move & shoot penalty of heavy weapons.

 

As it is, between meh BS, low number of shots, and that penalty on top, it really undercuts the Defiler's fire support role.  As such, I would lean hard on its melee ability - especially when its BS decays with damage suffered, but its WS doesn't.  Just a shame you can't drop the reaper autocannon for another twin heavy flamer or defiler scourge.

 

Unfortunately, if you treat it exclusively as a melee beast, then it compares somewhat unfavorably with the mauler, which is cheaper and faster and has more attacks with its lasher tendrils and more reliable damage with its claws.  But it's not entirely lopsided.  The defiler's claws are higher strength, with a strength that doesn't degrade.  It wounds Land Raiders and Knight Titans on a 2+ with its claws even down to its last wound.  Even the Lord of Skulls can't claim that.

 

 

 

The Defiler's big issues that keep it sub-par imo are decaying BS, the move & shoot penalty for heavy weapons, and the fact that battle cannons just aren't very good these days - which is a problem shared by /every/ vehicle that carries them, along with most weapons with random numbers of shots but that still require rolls to hit.  Keep it at its current points, but fix its BS at 4+ regardless of wounds, give it a rule to ignore the move & fire penalty of heavy weapons, let all 'blast' type weapons roll two dice and pick the highest for number of shots when firing at units of 10+ models*, and I think it would finally be in about the right place.  EDIT: Again, though, while I do think the Defiler is distinctly sub par, it's no longer outright terrible like it used to be.  You can absolutely run it in casual settings and have fun with it. /EDIT

 

 

 

* if you did this then the handful of blast type weapons that aren't bad right now, like earthshaker cannons, might have to get a bit more expensive to compensate, but right now the blast weapons that are actually good are the exceptions rather than the rule, so it seems better to put in place a general fix and then adjust the handful of examples that end up too good, rather than trying to individually fix all the weapons that are currently bad.

Edited August 29, 2017 by malisteen

[Azekai]

 

 

The Defiler's big issues that keep it sub-par imo are decaying BS, the move & shoot penalty for heavy weapons, and the fact that battle cannons just aren't very good these days - which is a problem shared by /every/ vehicle that carries them, along with most weapons with random numbers of shots but that still require rolls to hit.  Keep it at its current points, but fix its BS at 4+ regardless of wounds, give it a rule to ignore the move & fire penalty of heavy weapons, let all 'blast' type weapons roll two dice and pick the highest for number of shots when firing at units of 10+ models*, and I think it would finally be in about the right place.  EDIT: Again, though, while I do think the Defiler is distinctly sub par, it's no longer outright terrible like it used to be.  You can absolutely run it in casual settings and have fun with it. /EDIT

 

 

 

* if you did this then the handful of blast type weapons that aren't bad right now, like earthshaker cannons, might have to get a bit more expensive to compensate, but right now the blast weapons that are actually good are the exceptions rather than the rule, so it seems better to put in place a general fix and then adjust the handful of examples that end up too good, rather than trying to individually fix all the weapons that are currently bad.

I'd like to nominate Malisteen for appointment to the 'guys who write GW stuff' subcommittee.

 

In all seriousness, the defiler is a tolerable anti-armor weapon, for the reasons stated above. I just wish it were equally good at killing swathes of infantry... the weakness of most blast weapons is a large part of why hordes are so dominate- the natural predator of the infantryman had its claws and fangs removed.

[Sception]

Be careful of nominating me to rules writer.  I have... onorthodox opinions on things like khornate psykers (they should exist), the positions of heresy veterans and post heresy recruits/traitors within modern chaos legions (they should occupy different tiers within the same armies, rather than different armies entirely), the place for female models/characters/units within mortal chaos armies (ie, there being one at all), among other things.  :p

[Azekai]

Be careful of nominating me to rules writer.  I have... onorthodox opinions on things like khornate psykers (they should exist), the positions of heresy veterans and post heresy recruits/traitors within modern chaos legions (they should occupy different tiers within the same armies, rather than different armies entirely), the place for female models/characters/units within mortal chaos armies (ie, there being one at all), among other things.  

I am fine with any and all of those things, actually. Indeed, the scions of chaos would do well to welcome such heterodoxy!

 

The KDK army already blurred the lines between Khorne and sorcery. Bring on the gals and the bloody warpcraft and let the galaxy burn, I say.

 

But lets start by fixing defiler shooting- now off to Nottingham with you!

[intel31337]

Worth pointing out that being marked daemons, defilers can benefit from buffs from Daemon units that the CSM tanks can't. So the +1S from herald auras, psychic buffs (nurgle heals d3 or +1 to wound, slaanesh for extra fight phase, tzeentch for random stat buffs). Changling can give them a -1 to hit debuff to the enemy, combined with the -1 to hit from the smoke launcher gives them a round of pseudo-invisibility vs shooting. Tallyman buffs.. etc

 

Definitely doesn't fix the issues from his poor shooting ability, but can help give it more melee punch or further improve durability. And anything that helps the defiler in this regard can also apply to the maulerfiend and dakkafiend, so take from this what you will. 

 

Also would hold off till the actual Daemon dex comes out. We can expect more psychic powers, artifacts, WL traits etc. Or maybe they just screw daemon CSM units over by changing the keyword to "Daemon of X", or something along those lines... All up in the air till we have book in hand.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Also would hold off till the actual Daemon dex comes out. We can expect more psychic powers, artifacts, WL traits etc. Or maybe they just screw daemon CSM units over by changing the keyword to "Daemon of X", or something along those lines... All up in the air till we have book in hand.

 

 

There is a FAQ on that particular point : Daemon CSM unit are made for benefit of Aura/spells from daemonic units. So that's not something we are going to loose.

I do also expect some rules/stratagem for Daemon units when Chaos daemon codex come (for those with a "Daemonkind" army with one pure CSM & one pure daemon detachment).

 

Atm i dont feel Defiler "need" some buff on the table. +1 to strengh with herald when you got so much strenght already is useless. Hysterical frenzy & virulent blessing are good, but they are better units for such wombo-combo (dameon prince, possessed, actual daemon).

 

As for the stratagem : i find daemonforge wasted on a Defiler. It's made for reroll hit & wound. With the defiler either you got :cussty chance to hit, but you wound on 2+ (defiler claws, battle canon, lascanon) or you got auto-hit but don't wound ofter (combiflamer & heavy flamers).

I dislike using one CP for reroll hit when auto hit, or reroll wound when wounding on 2+..

 

For now, i use my defiler with minimum point and strategic involvement (no chaos lord, no spell, no stratagem). Because there is better use for that (not like spell/stratagem and chaos lord were an infinite resource).

 

The two big downside for Defiler are :

- Penalty to hit when moving

- Incapacity to build it with Heavyflamers + Defilers scourge for pure Close combat Or Autocanon + Heavy bolter for pur Dakkadakka (Daemonforge would have been SO great if this build was legal.. Maybe the best saturation machine ever)