Am I being a stubborn old fool?

[Kasper_Hawser]

Some background about my playstyle: I started the game at the beginning of 6th Edition, a time when there was only one FOC, Nevertheless, many characters had unique FOC altering abilities, like the famed Loganwing, Belial Deathwing, Samael Ravenwing etc. As such, a big chunk of my early passion was infantry, the humble Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and terminators. Basically, I have more than a 100 power armoured marines, including characters and terminators.

 

So even until now, anytime somebody asks me for a game, my immediate list template is always 1 HQ and Two Troops. Obviously this got me smashed towards the end of 7th edition until it wasn't funny anymore. And here is the problem: even in 8th edition where even bolters can hurt Land Raiders, is my mindset still too confining and setting up myself to be disappointed when I ALWAYS bring Grey Hunters and Bloodclaws?

 

Reason this had me thinking is that many of my opponents don't seem to bother with the battalion detachment, instead going for one of the other detachments, having more than one in order to get more CPs. Whether it is the one with many heavy support or many elites, I feel like despite the reward of obsec and 3 extra CPs, the "spam lists" are still more than likely to get a TAC list slaughtered instead of losing due to putting too many eggs in one basket which is suppose to be their theoretical weakness.

 

Actually one rather unfulfilling game was a CSM player who just used a very barebones Battlion of cultists and chaos characters, then summoned a huge load of Bloodletters out of nowhere. I know in Matched Play, the summoned units also eats into your points, but still, CSM is a prime example where Cultists still only exist to get loads of elites, HS and FA rather than being the core of the army.

 

I guess I just want to ask and confirm if I'm the only idiot Space Wolf or 40K player for that matter whose mind is still stuck in the old FOC and still expect to get a win out of it against the current spam lists.

 

In case you want to know what I normally field in a 1000-2000 point game, it's always something like this:

 

 

HQ - Rune Priest in termi armour and battle leader with jump pack.

 

3 X Troops - one BC, 2 Grey Hunters (each with Razorback)

 

1 X Terminator - used to be combi weapons but nowadays, I try to use storm bolters with not much success.

 

Optional - Wulfen with Stormwolf 

              - Long Fangs with Las or Missiles

[Deadnaughty]

There really is nothing wrong with GH imo. I'm less of a CC player so I don't use, and can't comment, on BC.

 

What sort of equipment are you running on your GH'ers?

6 with a plasma gun and combi-plasma from the WG has been good to me, providing a good midfield unit that is still plenty threatening because of the plasma.

 

They also synergise well with a Rune Priest to create a solid firebase in the center of the board. 2x GH + Razerbacks with re-rolls from a Battle Leader or Wolf Lord and all being given cover by the Rune Priest.

 

If I had to guess I would say the problem either lies in the units that fill out your army or in your own skill.

 

Not a fan of storm-bolter terminators this edition, would rather take Wolfguard Bikers with Stormbolters and Stormshields. Double the shots, more maneuverability after the initial deployment and cheaper.

[Garreck]

Maybe it's just my local meta, but battalion force org featuring grey hunters has been working great for me. At 1500 points I can fit in 3 squads of 5 grey hunters plus attendant WGPL, 3 twin assault cannon razorbacks, Bjorn, an iron priest, plus a floaty tank with 5 man hellblaster squad. Obsec, 7 command points, high volume of fire, rerolls, ability to repair your vehicles. It's nice. Plays WAY different from the TWC and Wulfen compositions I built around in 7th.

 

If you're "stuck" on traditional force organizations, my experience thus far indicates this edition rewards you for it. You'll probably lose to power lists, but that's nothing new.

[DanPesci]

Core of my army is the same, always take at least 2, usually 3 small squads in razorbacks (2 armed up with plas/combi plas, 1 with melta/combi melta).

 

Decent unit that can put out enough damage to threaten most things, and grab objectives when needed.

 

Just feels wrong to me to leave home without em :) I dont tend to use bloodclaws ever though as have other guys for CC (axeshiel dreads, bjorn, wolfguard, arjac). 

[DanPesci]

  Obsec, 7 command points, high volume of fire, rerolls, ability to repair your vehicles.

 

I may be reading your post wrong, but I was under the impression that ours troops dont get obsec/defenders of humanity?

 

Or were you just meaning your primaris unit does?

[Garreck]

Nope that's a good catch, Dan...we don't have defenders of humanity. Got ahead of myself there...I've yet to play a game where it would've mattered and I just took it for granted.

 

Wouldn't even have it with Primaris unless running the Primaris in a non-SW detachment.

[Deadnaughty]

Didn't GW say that in an update coming later this year every army is getting Obsec for Troop choices?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/09/new-matched-play-rules-in-chapter-approved-aug-9gw-homepage-post-1/

[Ogalois]

I love Space Wolves.

 

And I love warhammer, I love it for the fluff and I love the thrill of the game.

 

That is why I hate playing an army that doesn't make sense, for example, an opponent plays astra militarum and in a 2k game he made a 1500 points army and fielded Sarakinel, the giant daemon of slaanesh. Yes, it was a fun and weird game, and my wolves won the match. 

 

I get you, you like playing some units and want the core of your armies to be the same, but I suggest you to be diverse with your help. I love grey hunters and they still are the core of my playstile, but i use them not for the punch anymore, but for objectives and the rest of the army is there to protect them.

 

I think that in this edition you really need a Stormfang and long fangs in the back to take down the big multiple wounded threats, and maybe keeping your termis in the space until the correct turn needs them to deepstrike and use their combis, cus the combiplasmas are very strong, you can overload them and with the rerolls they are very strong.

 

Well, in the end, you should be a stubborn old fool, because you are a Wolf and that's what we do, but you also have to be cunning and try to win by any means, because we can. Don't go for unbound armies, we don't need to cheese, Space Wolves are kind of balanced and when we get our new codex and our Primarch returns, we will be over powered!

[Bulwyf]

You can't just take out the same list edition after edition and opponent after opponent. You need variety. To be more specific in advise what is your local meta like, OP? Do you have a lot of heavy tourney guys with win at all cost lists? Do you face mostly horde armies or high wound/elite armies?  Is your meta more stand back and shoot or in your face assault?

 

I'd like to give more precise advise if possible. The usual hold outs for older SW players is refusing to use Wulfen and TWC. Those units are excellent if used correctly and in the right list.

[Garreck]

I find TWC massively overpriced this edition. A twin assault cannon razorback has higher toughness, more wounds, better mobility, and better offensive output than a stock unit of TWC for 75% the cost. Start throwing on storm shields and a thunder hammer and now you're at two such razorbacks. Might as well go three and fill them with grey hunters and have the core to your battalion at that point.

 

Another comparison is 5 wolf guard bikers with SS and storm bolters. A flat superior unit to a unit of TWC with SS and pack leader with thunder hammer.

 

Wulfen are steep but have great return if you can get them into combat.

 

I happen to like TWC and Wulfen, but this is the edition to be a hold-out and still field a relevant and competitive composition.

[jerrys]

It seems to me that it's a great time to run 5-man squads of grey hunters in razorbacks, or 15 man squads of blood claws in land raiders, etc. I love that kind of army.

I also have had good luck with long fangs, though nobody dropped in on them yet. The deep striking seems like it is a serious thing in 8th edition that I don't confidently know what to do about.

(I decided to try to work around the "wulfen issue" by making them look like big marines -- they'll be elite huskarls or something like that. I haven't quite finished them yet and don't know how well they work in practice. Hard to believe they won't be awesome, though.)

[the jeske]

Two few GH squads in razorbacks, single BC unit with no melee support, ton of points sunk in WG terminators. No counter units, and support section made out of one unit, when it always should be at least two. Yep, it is the list, not the edition that is making the games feel unfun. GH in razors lists are doing fine, tide BC are maybe not good, but can be fun to play with[if your in to ork style of game play]. As long as you stay away from singles and drop pods it is hard to make a really bad SW list.
G

 

I know in Matched Play, the summoned units also eats into your points, but still, CSM is a prime example where Cultists still only exist to get loads of elites, HS and FA rather than being the core of the army.

 

have you tried using csm in 8th specially vs something like SWs or GK ? Because I don't think you did, otherwise you would know why no chaos player wants to run csm.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Didn't GW say that in an update coming later this year every army is getting Obsec for Troop choices?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/09/new-matched-play-rules-in-chapter-approved-aug-9gw-homepage-post-1/

 

Thanks for the highlight. Something to look forward to, although it applies for ALL armies.

 

Actually that's a bit worrisome. The whole point of obsec was so that small MSU armies have a chance to contend with big hordes for objectives. By giving it to horde armies that are battle forged, it'll push the balance back to hordes again with MSU being severely hit. 

 

Funnily enough, I stopped relying on Obsec back in 7th ed. Or rather, with the current super elite and heavy support detachment lists in my meta, I found Obsec not very relevant as most times I'm shot off the board.

 

 

Two few GH squads in razorbacks, single BC unit with no melee support, ton of points sunk in WG terminators. No counter units, and support section made out of one unit, when it always should be at least two. Yep, it is the list, not the edition that is making the games feel unfun. GH in razors lists are doing fine, tide BC are maybe not good, but can be fun to play with[if your in to ork style of game play]. As long as you stay away from singles and drop pods it is hard to make a really bad SW list.

G

 

I know in Matched Play, the summoned units also eats into your points, but still, CSM is a prime example where Cultists still only exist to get loads of elites, HS and FA rather than being the core of the army.

 

have you tried using csm in 8th specially vs something like SWs or GK ? Because I don't think you did, otherwise you would know why no chaos player wants to run csm.

 

I'm not going to dignify your negative and ill worded response. Especially from a CSM who won't use CSM. Nothing good to say, don't say it.

 

 

You can't just take out the same list edition after edition and opponent after opponent. You need variety. To be more specific in advise what is your local meta like, OP? Do you have a lot of heavy tourney guys with win at all cost lists? Do you face mostly horde armies or high wound/elite armies?  Is your meta more stand back and shoot or in your face assault?

 

I'd like to give more precise advise if possible. The usual hold outs for older SW players is refusing to use Wulfen and TWC. Those units are excellent if used correctly and in the right list.

 

I actually belong to the category of not using TWC. Mostly due to bad luck in using them in the past, where they always failed to pass their armour/invuln save. Wulfen I found more palatable because they were infantry and the did boost units around them.

 

For more specifics, I don't just use the above list as my sole army. I use it as the CORE of my army, meaning the Rune Priest, 3 X BC/RH and Razorbacks/Rhinos. For my last few games, I fielded something like this:

 

HQ: Rune Priest

Battle Leader with Jump Pack

 

Elites: 5 man terminators with frost swords and storm bolters

           6 man Wulfen with 3 TH/SS, 2 axes and leader

 

Troops: 5 man BC with Power axe (meant more for backfield objectives)

             5 man GH with combi plasma, plasma gun

             5 man GH with melta

 

(each with Razorbacks, turrets depending on whether I facing long range or mid range armies, of course TL Assault cannon being my favorite.)

 

Flyer: Stormwolf with multi-melta

 

Heavy Support: One Long Fangs squad with lascannons.

 

This is the my most successful list to date and one I had most fun with. Originally I filled the troops with nearly 10 man squads in Rhinos with the works but it couldn't survive long enough to be useful. So I went back to MSU with Razorbacks with the aim of troops being the anvil whereas rest of army is hammer and fist to protect the troops from being anihilated.

 

The Long Fangs I've managed to keep alive long enough to kill one big target these days, mostly by deploying out of sight then moving into position. between their natural reroll 1s and Battle Leader reroll 1 to wounds, I've successfully made a big kill a turn typically before they die.

 

The terminators I love since the days which they were considered, and may still be, sub par. On the more rational side, I just wanted a unit which I can keep my opponent on his toes and not have total control of the board. Even if they don't kill anything, I consider them to be a reasonably cheap distraction carnifex. Normally accompanied by Rune Priest for Jaws and Smite if the Storm bolters and combi melta don't do enough damage.

 

Anyway, sorry if I come across as whining, but I truly am looking for ideas on variation which doesn't force me to go to the same level of making multiple spearhead, vanguard and flyer wing detachments. I could if I want, I happen to have 2 Storm fangs and 1 Stormwolf, but it'll practically eat up everything except the 2 HQ and 3 MSU Troops. Plus I find it distasteful to field so many flyers too.

 

Had a couple of games last weekend using a similar list above. One was a 9 Centurion with Lascannon gang, 3 Whirlwinds, a 10 man Cataphracti team and Gabriel Angelos of all things to give rerolls to the shooting blob. Another list used mainly Cawl and Onager Dunecrawlers. Relic and Emperor's will respectively.

 

Actually managed to win both games by the skin of my teeth, ultimately due to the fact I had more bodies than him. (barely) Still, it was a painfully uphill as I had little long range and in both games, it was all I could do to survive 5 turns of Lascannons and Missiles while desperately hugging cover and LOS blocking. Still won but it was stressful and not quite as satisfying to win purely by being last man standing.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Kasper_Hawser

[wilkco]

One thing I have started working on is a storm wolf filling it with Lukas the trickster  and 2 units of blood claws drop them into the back line and you get a massive amount of CC attacks hitting on plus +2 also if you put in a plasma/melta gives you a bit of shootyness (new word alert) back to +3.   I think troops have a place in the 8th it just you need to accept that you are going to lose a lot of them  that is why I try to use small units now that you have to declare what you are shooting at gives a chance for a unit to survive if your opponent  splits his fire

[Kasper_Hawser]

One thing I have started working on is a storm wolf filling it with Lukas the trickster  and 2 units of blood claws drop them into the back line and you get a massive amount of CC attacks hitting on plus +2 also if you put in a plasma/melta gives you a bit of shootyness (new word alert) back to +3.   I think troops have a place in the 8th it just you need to accept that you are going to lose a lot of them  that is why I try to use small units now that you have to declare what you are shooting at gives a chance for a unit to survive if your opponent  splits his fire

 

that's one of the more fun lists i'm trying, although I put the Blood Claws and Lukas in a Crusader instead of a Stormwolf. The Stormwolf i always give to my Wulfen to be the rapid reaction force depending on what the enemy does or moves. Combined with Ragnar for reroll hits, yes, they become fairly strong even against high toughness armour units. did relatively well but like I said, majority of my meta prefers to shoot everything from AFAR, which means my Land Raider died turn 2 leaving my claws stranded in the end.

 

Damn, your IDEA IS BRILLIANG! Instead of using one huge group of Blood Claws with a powerfist in it, I should use 2 MSU Blood Claws with 2 power fists and their respective sergeants with combi and frost weapons in them along with Lukas and a Wolf Lord to reroll 1s. Can even fit two special weapons in it which will hit on 3+ as long as Lukas is around.

 

THANKS WILLICO!

[Gherrick]

I found throwing long fangs inside a bunker to be very helpful in keeping them alive a lot longer. For 100pts, it still takes a reasonable amount of firepower to take it down, which is less used on your other units...win-win. And remember you can take a TDAWG with a CML as well, which means a LCx4 + TDAWG w/CML/SB/SS gives you 1 more shot (although 2 at 36" vs rest at 48") when inside a bunker, and a nice 2+/3++ 2W when they do get targeted.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I found throwing long fangs inside a bunker to be very helpful in keeping them alive a lot longer. For 100pts, it still takes a reasonable amount of firepower to take it down, which is less used on your other units...win-win. And remember you can take a TDAWG with a CML as well, which means a LCx4 + TDAWG w/CML/SB/SS gives you 1 more shot (although 2 at 36" vs rest at 48") when inside a bunker, and a nice 2+/3++ 2W when they do get targeted.

 

I guess one day I'll try a bunker. There's certainly a lot of them lying around my FLGS used as terrain normally. 

[Karhedron]

My Grey Hunters have done very well so far this edition and I look forward to them getting ObjSec back.

 

It is frustrating though as it shows that GW still cannot get Troops units right. Troops should be the default choice and the best all-rounders, other elements of the force org chart should be specialised units for specific jobs that suffer when not used correctly. Too often Elites/Heavy/Fast units are downright better than Troops for just a few extra points. So GW pile special bonuses like CPs and ObjSec on Troops when they should be balancing them better in the first place.

 

Having said that, I think that Grey Hunters are one of the better Troop units in the game.

[wilkco]

see I would go for the wulfen in the land raider as if it gets taken out the wulfen are tougher out in the middle of the field than the blood claws. with the flyer you are more than likely getting very close to the back line first turn.

[Bulwyf]

I agree with the Wulfen in LR as their SS will let them soak up some fire. BC are just targets if they get exposed

 

Your list btw sounds fine. I was concerned you weren't going with enough vehicles to try and have enough long range punch for what I was assuming was a stand back and shoot meta. I do agree with the above advise that smaller squads are more useful.

[spacepup]

I too always bring mostly troops. I always have used transports for them. Rhinos and razorbacks for each unit are a thing again. I might fill out my list with a predator tank or if the points are high enough I break out the land raider crusader for the blood claws and run them 15 strong. I recently played a 2250 point tournament and did pretty good with no wulfen nor thunderwolf cav. I won 2 out of 3 rounds with the list that was nothing but troops, Bjorn and 2 ven dreads with axe/shield (so good for 145 pts).

 

So if you're stubborn then so am I.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I agree with the Wulfen in LR as their SS will let them soak up some fire. BC are just targets if they get exposed

 

Your list btw sounds fine. I was concerned you weren't going with enough vehicles to try and have enough long range punch for what I was assuming was a stand back and shoot meta. I do agree with the above advise that smaller squads are more useful.

 

Thanks for the reassurance Bulwyf. In regards to the particular list where i had a large blood claw squad with Land Raider along with a Wulfen squad in a Stormwolf, I'm not quite sold on switching their transports. Maybe it's due to my luck, but I don't like my Wulfen being stuck without a transport early in game when the Land Raider most likely dies by turn 2 or 3 via concentrated fire. I rather get there to eliminate the hard targets straight away via Stormwolf so even if the Stormwolf crashes, the Wulfen will be close enough to smash whatever needs smashing before being destroyed.

 

That said, I also see the wisdom of keeping the Wulfen close, especially if the opponent is also deepstriking. The thought of the Grey Knights deepstriking and blowing up the Land Raider only to find the Wulfen inside instead of Blood Claws is.... intriguing. The Blood Claws in the Stormwolf might be ignore or assigned less priority. But this is only if the enemy is coming to me. Otherwise, for a long range army, the Wulfen better go into the Stormwolf and zoom right in his face, while i pray enough wulfen survive to pummel at least one group of Centurions/Predator tanks/Devastators.

 

 

I too always bring mostly troops. I always have used transports for them. Rhinos and razorbacks for each unit are a thing again. I might fill out my list with a predator tank or if the points are high enough I break out the land raider crusader for the blood claws and run them 15 strong. I recently played a 2250 point tournament and did pretty good with no wulfen nor thunderwolf cav. I won 2 out of 3 rounds with the list that was nothing but troops, Bjorn and 2 ven dreads with axe/shield (so good for 145 pts).

 

So if you're stubborn then so am I.

 

thanks for being stubborn with me. I've almost done with my first predator tank in 3 years, autocannon/heavy bolter configuration, I think I'll use it to fill up the gap in my future lists.

[Gherrick]

If you have a pair of blizzdreads flanking your LRC, I doubt there will be much deepstriking to take the LRC out...and don't forget smoke launchers...they can make a real difference on the first or second round.

[Kasper_Hawser]

If you have a pair of blizzdreads flanking your LRC, I doubt there will be much deepstriking to take the LRC out...and don't forget smoke launchers...they can make a real difference on the first or second round.

 

Sadly the blizz dreads are expensive and I would either have to give up the Wulfen or the Land Raider itself. Hmmm, what else can I give up...... Maybe give up Ragnar for a generic wolf lord or simple battle leader. Lukas already gives +1 to hit, so reroll 1s is no longer much of an issue.

 

I think I'll use Blizz dreads in my other lists as counter deepstrike.

[spacepup]

Blizz dreads have been a staple in most of my lists. It's axe attack now is really, really good IMO. And for 145 points it's not too bad I think.