Company Organization Question

[Jochteas]

I was wondering about something , and after mucking around the Internet for a few hours I couldn't find a definitive answer.

 

Do Leadership style units like Captains and Chaplains and librarians count against the 100 man company size?

 

What about lesser officers like the Primaris Lieutenant or Primaris Ancient ? Or tech priests in general

 

I know it's not the biggest question in the world but I'm working on some chapter fluff and it's actually kinda matters to me now. I appreciate the help.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Jochteas

[Race Bannon]

If I may, do you mean the 100 per Company idea?  Nope.  10 dudes per Squad, 10 squads per Company.  So, the Captain of the Company is clearly the "+1".  So anyone else (assigned Chaplains, Lieutenants, Ancient, etc.) are simply not counted.  Needless to say the typical Chapter is more than 1000 dudes strong.

 

^_^

[Jochteas]

If I may, do you mean the 100 per Company idea?  Nope.  10 dudes per Squad, 10 squads per Company.  So, the Captain of the Company is clearly the "+1".  So anyone else (assigned Chaplains, Lieutenants, Ancient, etc.) are simply not counted.  Needless to say the typical Chapter is more than 1000 dudes strong.

 

^_^

Thank you for that! And yeah that was my fault I get those mixed up sometimes, damn them for both starting with C. But I really appreciate the Help. I was really hung up on that and how it all worked.

[Stoic Raptor]

Headquarters don't count against unit size, even in real militaries.  There might be three platoons in a company, for instance, but the Company HQ is in addition to that - and so on up through Battalions, Regiments and Divisions.

 

No reason why Astartes Companies would be any different, of course, given that otherwise you'd never have room for 10 squads.

[CCE1981]

Captain

Chaplain

Librarian

Lieutenant

Lieutenant

Company Champion

Ancient

Techmarine

Apothecary

 

That is the general command staff of each Company, that doesn't include the Company Veterans or the Chapters Command Retinue or Honour Guard. Multiply the number above by 10 and that is another Company. Add in Dreadnoughts the Chapter Command, Company Veterans, Honour Guard and extra Apothecaries, Techmarines, Chaplains, and Libratians in Training and you get another Company worth of troops.

 

Now add in Rhino, Predator, Land Raider, and Aircraft Crews and you are looking at at least another Company worth of Marines.

 

Scout Squads are also undefined in size, I am not going to go into full detail but think of how many Marines die in the fluff you need to be able to replace those losses.

 

Overall a Chapter would be Roughly 1500 strong in Space Marines, likely ~1200-1300 fully developed Marines.

[Beta galactosidase]

CCE1981, librarians and tech marines have never been part of company HQ in the background.

 

 

Originally, honor guard were regular members of companies (even rules allowed one to replace a tactical squad member), and tank, flyer, and ship crews have frequently been described as being regular squad members on alternate duties.

 

But mainly the hq is captain, chaplain, apothecary, ancient. The techmarines amd librarians have other jobs.

[Stoic Raptor]

The techmarines and librarians actually have their own "units" so to speak.  The Librarium consists of all the Chapter Librarians, the Apothecarion of all the Chapter's Apothecaries, etc.

But combined, and along with Company HQs and Chapter Command, they still account for a sizeable amount of personnel above the standard 1000 soldiers of the ten Companies.

[Death Dealer 101]

Question about Primaris marines?

Aggresors are designated as Fire Support (Heavy) but fall in the elite slot for army building

Reivers are designated as Close Support (Fast Attack)) but also fall in the elite slot for army building.

 

Is the slot they fall in simply for list building balance?

[Mileposter]

Question about Primaris marines?

Aggresors are designated as Fire Support (Heavy) but fall in the elite slot for army building

Reivers are designated as Close Support (Fast Attack)) but also fall in the elite slot for army building.

 

Is the slot they fall in simply for list building balance?

Largely, yes. Similarly the Vanguard Veterans fall into the Elite slot despite performing the Fast Attack role on the battlefield, and Fliers all fit into the 'Flyer' slot regardless of what their battlefield role is.

[Death Dealer 101]

Except Vanguard vets have elite shoulder makings not fast attack while the others have heavy and fasts sholder details.

[Endova]

It's a little annoying really. Codex Marines have some pretty heavy bloat in the Elites department.

[Stoic Raptor]

Yeah, and scarce few options for Troops.  Basically three (Scouts, Intercessors and Tactical squads) unless you're a BT.  It kind of makes the core of an Astartes detachment somewhat boring.

[CCE1981]

It's a little annoying really. Codex Marines have some pretty heavy bloat in the Elites department.

If we could only take one of each single model unit as one choice like you can take 2 liuetenants, the elites section would be much more managemable.

[Closet Skeleton]

The techmarines and librarians actually have their own "units" so to speak.  The Librarium consists of all the Chapter Librarians, the Apothecarion of all the Chapter's Apothecaries, etc.

But combined, and along with Company HQs and Chapter Command, they still account for a sizeable amount of personnel above the standard 1000 soldiers of the ten Companies.

 

Chaplains are part of the Reclusiam and Apothecaries are part of the Apothecarion but one of each get seconded to Company Command and are therefore also part of the company. Librarians do not.

 

Companies are not actual battlefield formations in normal circumstances. The normal codex battlefield formation is the strike force which is made up of elements a (usually only one) battle company plus stuff from everywhere else.

 

Its the fact that a Scout Company doesn't follow the ten squads rule at all that is the most obvious area where the "1000 marines" idea has always been a clearly inaccurate abstraction.

 

 

Originally, honor guard were regular members of companies (even rules allowed one to replace a tactical squad member), and tank, flyer, and ship crews have frequently been described as being regular squad members on alternate duties.

 

But mainly the hq is captain, chaplain, apothecary, ancient. The techmarines amd librarians have other jobs.

 

That was only an optional rule and was back when Techmarines were in command squads. In 2nd ed command squads didn't exist and apothecaries, standard bearers and techmarines were separate heroes like in 8th ed. 3rd ed created the Command squad with those guys all forced to join one unit and people complained so white dwarf published an optional rule so you could split them off a little. 4th ed then split the techmarine off into an independent hero again.

 

Tank crews are a combination of techmarines and reserve company members. So some are from "the 1000" and some are not.

[Toxichobbit]

 

The techmarines and librarians actually have their own "units" so to speak.  The Librarium consists of all the Chapter Librarians, the Apothecarion of all the Chapter's Apothecaries, etc.

But combined, and along with Company HQs and Chapter Command, they still account for a sizeable amount of personnel above the standard 1000 soldiers of the ten Companies.

 

Chaplains are part of the Reclusiam and Apothecaries are part of the Apothecarion but one of each get seconded to Company Command and are therefore also part of the company. Librarians do not.

 

Companies are not actual battlefield formations in normal circumstances. The normal codex battlefield formation is the strike force which is made up of elements a (usually only one) battle company plus stuff from everywhere else.

 

Its the fact that a Scout Company doesn't follow the ten squads rule at all that is the most obvious area where the "1000 marines" idea has always been a clearly inaccurate abstraction.

 

 

Originally, honor guard were regular members of companies (even rules allowed one to replace a tactical squad member), and tank, flyer, and ship crews have frequently been described as being regular squad members on alternate duties.

 

But mainly the hq is captain, chaplain, apothecary, ancient. The techmarines amd librarians have other jobs.

 

That was only an optional rule and was back when Techmarines were in command squads. In 2nd ed command squads didn't exist and apothecaries, standard bearers and techmarines were separate heroes like in 8th ed. 3rd ed created the Command squad with those guys all forced to join one unit and people complained so white dwarf published an optional rule so you could split them off a little. 4th ed then split the techmarine off into an independent hero again.

 

Tank crews are a combination of techmarines and reserve company members. So some are from "the 1000" and some are not.

 

 

If I remember correctly, Honour Guard didn't get added until 4th, so when Techmarines were seperate. Unless they were added in one of 3rds Chapter Approved. I can't remember if that was when they were able to be put into normal Marine squads or not.

[tdemayo]

I would imagine there are all sorts of minor, in-universe variations to the organization of different Chapters, what with combat losses, recruitment, specialists, local tradition, replacements for semi-autonomous companies on campaign, long-lost transports popping out of the warp hundreds or thousands of years after they were thought lost, etc.  As long as no one is obviously Legion-building, the rest of the Imperium is neither going to notice nor care.  Inquisitor Nitt von Pickius isn't going to survey a loyal chapter, and say, "You have 1023 marines, you heretics.  That's 23 too many.  I don't care if they're attached to the armory.  Prepare for exterminatus." (Or if he does, the other Inquisitors would laugh at him.)

 

We are talking about a civilization that uses lobotomized robot cherubs to scribe records onto parchment with a quill. I expect a certain amount of inconsistency and confusion.

Edited September 14, 2017 by tdemayo