Move and Fire order

[Spear of Achilles]

Hey folks... The order 'Move and Fire! Any INFANTRY models in the ordered unit count their weapons as being Assault weapons until the end of the turn.' does this mean they simply get one shot per gun, or do they still retain Rapid Fire on their Lasgun as well?

[apologist]

I'd interpret it as the Assault type overrides the Rapid Fire type for the purposes of the rule, so you would not retain Rapid Fire while it counts as an Assault-type weapon.

[plaguedroneofblight]

Definitely REPLACES Rapid Fire with Assault, so no extra shots from being Rapid Fire, because they aren't that anymore. 

[Lemondish]

Hmm, since it says "counts their weapons" and not "counts one weapon", it must mean all weapons. This would therefore turn their grenades into assault as well, and as such allow each member to throw one alongside the lasgun shot, right? If so, and they all took krak grenades, would that then allow them to throw both types? I can't see why it wouldn't because it basically just changes Grenade D6 and Grenade 1 into Assault D6 and Assault 1. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Lemondish

[Ciler]

Hmm, since it says "counts their weapons" and not "counts one weapon", it must mean all weapons. This would therefore turn their grenades into assault as well, and as such allow each member to throw one alongside the lasgun shot, right? If so, and they all took krak grenades, would that then allow them to throw both types? I can't see why it wouldn't because it basically just changes Grenade D6 and Grenade 1 into Assault D6 and Assault 1.

Ooh, that's a pretty ugly can of worms you've opened there !

 

If any and all weapons are indeed considered assault and lose any other property, it means that there's no restrictions on how many times the grenade's profile could be used. Depending on the unit and distance to enemy units, firing 10+ krak grenades could potentially be fairly nasty.

 

edit : I do not see that order in index 2, are you sure that's it's precise wording ?

Edited September 1, 2017 by Ciler

[Lemondish]

 

Hmm, since it says "counts their weapons" and not "counts one weapon", it must mean all weapons. This would therefore turn their grenades into assault as well, and as such allow each member to throw one alongside the lasgun shot, right? If so, and they all took krak grenades, would that then allow them to throw both types? I can't see why it wouldn't because it basically just changes Grenade D6 and Grenade 1 into Assault D6 and Assault 1.

Ooh, that's a pretty ugly can of worms you've opened there !

 

If any and all weapons are indeed considered assault and lose any other property, it means that there's no restrictions on how many times the grenade's profile could be used. Depending on the unit and distance to enemy units, firing 10+ krak grenades could potentially be fairly nasty.

 

edit : I do not see that order in index 2, are you sure that's it's precise wording ?

It's (perhaps not surprisingly) a FW order specific to Elysian Drop Troops. You'll find it in the IA Index for AM.

[Ciler]

I see.

[Lemondish]

Precise wording for those wondering:

 

"Move and Fire!

Any INFANTRY models in the ordered unit count their weapons as being Assault weapons until the end of the turn."

 

Page 72, Imperial Armour Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum

[Ciler]

Interesting. It looks like they wanted to achieve broadly the same effect as the GW order "for the emperor" or something like that which allows to advance and shoot, but didn't realise the implications of their wording.

[Lemondish]

Interesting. It looks like they wanted to achieve broadly the same effect as the GW order "for the emperor" or something like that which allows to advance and shoot, but didn't realise the implications of their wording.

That doesn't sound like FW at all...

 

Probably also makes it the best order to use with Elysian Drop Troops until they clarify what they actually intended. 

[Spear of Achilles]

 

Interesting. It looks like they wanted to achieve broadly the same effect as the GW order "for the emperor" or something like that which allows to advance and shoot, but didn't realise the implications of their wording.

That doesn't sound like FW at all...

 

Probably also makes it the best order to use with Elysian Drop Troops until they clarify what they actually intended. 

 

Situational at best...nothing about the range being increased, so it's still pointless if you deepstrike out of grenade range.  Still, maybe pretty good vs Knights :)

[Lemondish]

 

 

Interesting. It looks like they wanted to achieve broadly the same effect as the GW order "for the emperor" or something like that which allows to advance and shoot, but didn't realise the implications of their wording.

That doesn't sound like FW at all...

 

Probably also makes it the best order to use with Elysian Drop Troops until they clarify what they actually intended. 

 

Situational at best...nothing about the range being increased, so it's still pointless if you deepstrike out of grenade range.  Still, maybe pretty good vs Knights

 

Well, you wouldn't use it on a unit that's deep striking. FRFSRF is superior in all ways for a unit that needs no mobility and is within rapid fire range the moment they land. 

 

But a unit that needs to pressure an objective, or a unit dropping from a Valkyrie? Yeah, probably would be beneficial. 10 Krak, 10 Frag, 10 Lasgun shots would outclass most anything else. 

 

It's also beneficial for any heavy weapons teams you want to re-position without incurring that movement penalty.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Lemondish

[Spear of Achilles]

They get to fire ALL their Frags, Kraks AND the lasguns? I doubt that would fly, because even though the grenades might be 'assault 1' from the rule, the books till says one one model may toss a grenade.

[HenricusTyranicus]

One weapon of the grenade type. Which, RAW, they aren't.

I for one think it a clear oversight. That's obviously not what they intended to achieve.

[Lemondish]

They get to fire ALL their Frags, Kraks AND the lasguns? I doubt that would fly, because even though the grenades might be 'assault 1' from the rule, the books till says one one model may toss a grenade.

 

You're describing the grenade weapon type. The order changes the weapon type of all the unit's weapons to assault, so the limitations described in the grenade rules no longer apply. Only the assault weapon type rules apply. The same would be true for pistols, which normally can't be fired alongside any other weapon, but if there was a unit with both a main weapon and a pistol receiving this order, they'd be able to fire all of them, because for the purposes of determining the weapon type, it is no longer considered a pistol. Once they're assault, only the assault type rules apply, which means all weapons can be fired, even while advancing (at -1). 

 

One weapon of the grenade type. Which, RAW, they aren't.

 

I for one think it a clear oversight. That's obviously not what they intended to achieve.

 

There's a lot of those with FW this time around, which is why my local groups never allow them and the local TO's ban them except as count as codex/index units. It's a clear oversight like the Elysian plasmagun supercharge doing 3 damage (even though they issued an errata on the pistols). For now, work it out with your opponent, if you can, but the rule is clear as written. 

Edited September 5, 2017 by Lemondish