Astarte and primaris

[Bremon]

Oh I totally agree with that. How Cawl's work wasn't discovered and him dealt with by the inquisition I don't know, but I do believe when Russ comes back or the Lion gets out of bed, etc. the Primaris will make for some excellent conflict between Guilliman and the others. The fluff for them is quite bad though. I like that the fluff is moving forward, but aspects of it are questionable to say the least. Primaris feel like their own army thanks to somehow not fitting in Land Raiders, etc.

[Lord_Starscream]

Oh I totally agree with that. How Cawl's work wasn't discovered and him dealt with by the inquisition I don't know, but I do believe when Russ comes back or the Lion gets out of bed, etc. the Primaris will make for some excellent conflict between Guilliman and the others. The fluff for them is quite bad though. I like that the fluff is moving forward, but aspects of it are questionable to say the least. Primaris feel like their own army thanks to somehow not fitting in Land Raiders, etc.

 

 

I understand it's a game, and I understand it's grimdark and what not. But the Primaris Marine is utterly impracticable, even for 40k. Takes more investment to make one apparently. Worse yet, they're :cussing huge (being big is actually not always an advantage), which means they literally can fight in less spaces than traditional marines once the traditional ones are gone.

 

If they wanted to do "true" scale marines, they should have just had the balls to start it. I won't buy another Chaos Space Marine right now for instance. Why? Because I'm not going to buy small scale models, when I know Primaris are on their way. That, and they made the Plague Marines pretty big. Not Primaris Big, but they're still pretty large. Almost as big, for instance.

 

I don't think its a money grab, I think GW was just afraid to jeopardize sales, and were afraid of a bigger backlash. I think they will phase out all the other models, which is fine. I just think that them literally making up these bizarre marines that seem even less practical and super contrived, wasn't a great step forward. I think that the backstory matters, and that it needs to be respected, and respectable. And Primaris Marines seem to be real dumb, at least to me.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Scale has never really bothered me. Maybe because i have the mind of a 5 year old who just imagines the battles in his head.

[Lemondish]

Primaris and the new Codex brought me back into 40k. The models are beautiful, and they actually play well on the table and really feel like genetically engineered heavily armoured super soldiers. The old marines were just so boring looking, especially with how squat and tiny they were. Nothing else to add - I just felt the hate train needed to be balanced a bit with some positive love for both Primaris and the codex.

[Bremon]

I'm with you on that Lemondish; I only got back into 40k after 8th dropped because of the new larger minis (intercessors and hellblasters specifically) and hearing basic marines (I thought Tac at the time, but turned out to be Primaris) have 2 wounds, which made so much sense to me. Mini marines look quite dated in comparison. I will say I'm not as sold on Gravis armour (termie armour has a special place in my heart) and the Reivers look like trash. Cawl handing out plasma like a kid with a lemonade stand bothers me fluffwise, and the floating land raider really doesn't do it for me either. Edited September 14, 2017 by Bremon

[Spiky Norman]

The whole reason why I joined Bolter & Chainsword was because of the Primaris release. I think the primaris marines looks absolutely great and feel more like what they should have always been. They were what finally got me to switch away from Chaos and start a new marine army.

 

I honestly do not get the hate, but I and simply try to steer away from it even if it seems to pop up all over the place.

[Blindhamster]

yep, the primaris marines look significantly better (to me).

And I fall into the category of people that actually doesn't have issues with their lore either, the idea that someone authorised by Guilliman at a point when he was a high lord of terra, could remain hidden whilst conducting the research in question seems perfectly reasonable, especially when so much of the imperium doesn't have a clue what the rest of it is doing and when it was at a time with the imperium being busy trying to restructure and rebuild.

The primaris marines have been made easier to make (lower failure rate), they're stronger and more resilient, but many of them are men out of their own time, probably still trying to deal with the dogmatic mess that the imperium has become, they're also looked on with suspicion by regular astartes, mechanicum and bureaucracy, through no fault of their own.

 

I like the idea of the new kid on the block, I also like the idea that it adds some fresh silhouettes to the marine range, as well as new and interesting tactics/wargear.

 

The only things I don't like about primaris are:

• arbitarily not allowing them in regular transports, just make them count as 2 marines and be done with it, then have the repulsor still only allow 10 marines or 10 primaris in, same way an assault ram allows 10 terminators or 10 marines.
• lack of options on characters - this isn't necessarily primaris specific, as it appears to be the norm for any "new" stuff that gets added now. But it does suck from a creative standpoint. Similar concern about sergeants for the squads, they really ought to have a few options, my BA want power swords like everyone elses intercessor sergeants.
• lack of a proper effective close combat unit.

[Frater Antodeniel]

I think that Primaris were an uncessary change, one that would have been better in future editions, introduced in a less brutal fashion.

 

The 7th editions ended with Chaos brought back as the main foe, and 8th editions, with the Fall of Cadia & Great Rift fluff, should have transformed the whole faction with a series of LONG awaited releases. (I still smile/laugh when i see GW using pict of the Chaos Chosens of the Dark Vengeance box....after all those years....).

 

And while Astartes range would have followed in the release schedule, i think that the Whole Scouts (Scouts squad/Scouts Bike notably) would have welcomed new models. And what about the Techmarines, that would have liked a plastic new model. A why not a new Command Squad, following the trend of the recent Assault/Devastator/Tactical squads ?....and what about Comtemptor STC coming back for all Astartes Chapter....whould have provided a LOT of new dreadnought variants....also what about giving Classic Terminators better models, after all those years...

 

From my point of view, Primaris is a hasted and forced change of the whole 40K Universe that could have been well done if introduced slowly during the whole 8th edition, but it has not been the case.

 

I am not a sheep, and so i vote with my wallet. While the Apothecary is truly the Character model that shine amongst all the Primaris, and the Intercessors make real sized tactical, i still wait, because..........NO CHAINSWORD = NO PRIMARIS !

[Blindhamster]

our intercessor sergeants get chainswords :D

are you suggesting that if people like the primaris, they are sheep?


why would there be a point to making yet more contemptors? forgeworld already do a good range, and every chapter can take them.

 

new command squad might have been nice, but they've changed how the things that were in those squads work, so it makes less sense. It would have been two individual models (an ancient and a champion), and you'd use sternguard models for the company veterans, remember that command squads dont exist anymore in the traditional sense.

 

new scouts would be good, they are not brilliant models.

 

new terminators may have been good, but i suspect most people would moan when they inevitably went the same way as the BA and DA ones, with monopose builds.

 

The primaris weren't introduced overnight in universe, it's just the setting jumped forward around 100 years, which is the real issue, we had a huge jump forward and didn't see the ramifications of the events seen at the end of 7th, but if we didn't jump forward, BA wouldn't exist as they'd be stuck fighting tyranids in a different timeline due to warp wibbly wobbly timey wimey.

 

 

Wholeheartedly agree that the basic chaos marine sets (their tactical and devastator squad equivalents would benefit from an update, and I hope it comes in the near future).

Primaris will get expanded on as the edition progresses, new units etc will appear no doubt.

[Robbienw]

DA terminators aren't monopose, just the BA ones.

[Sete]

I understand Antodoniel.

 

I'm not going to buy Primaris just because they are shiny new. Like him I'm voting with my wallet and the restrictions and lack of options wheight a lot on my decision.

 

Also no Chainswords no Primaris!!!

Wheres my Primaris Crusader Squad?

[Blindhamster]

someone else had a theory that we'll see a close combat primaris squad with either the BA or SW release, it wouldn't be specific to either of those chapters, but would get the notes on who can use it in the pdf the same as all the existing units.

makes sense to me!

 

I can totally see why not everyone would like them, and agree that if you don't like them, don't buy them.

However, referring to people that do like them as "sheep" is nothing other than rude. I like them because I like the idea of them, I like how they look in terms of details, I like the way they look next to other armies and I like the fact the imperium is finally making a few small advances of their own. Not just because they're shiny and new.

 

I just don't see why they'd update things like more contemptors, terminators or command squads when the first two are fine already, the last one isn't really relevant as the concept no longer exists. The only unit that is pretty universally viewed as bad are the scouts, so an update to those may seem a bit more warranted, on the other hand, the idea that we'd get yet another revamp of existing stuff before chaos/eldar/guard etc is even more galling than a new line of completely different stuff.

As far as DA terminators not being monopose, sorry, definitely a goof there on my part!!

[Damo1701]

Primaris models :

 

Intercessors - great.

Hellblasters - ok.

Inceptors - meh, not too bad.

Gravis - not great, not awful.

Aggressors - meh.

Reivers - awful.

Characters - largely meh.

Repulsor - Awfully awful.

 

Rules:

 

2 wound marines that either totally die to errant plasma, or incoming plasma just as easily as basic marines, cost more points, and can't ride anything except a Repulsor or either a Thunderhawk and/or Stormbird.

 

Fluff:

 

Feels like a primary/grade school child wrote it.  "And suddenly, on the orders of big blue papa, a random, extremely old mechanic pulls hundreds of thousands of super-duper space marines with super-shooty guns and almost no hitting ability (because hitting is not nice!) out of his super deep basement on Mars because the big blue papa woke up from his nap and was in trouble..."

 

Now, there are plenty of ways that people can, and have, been upscaling their marines.  From actually cutting and gluing to just putting them on somewhat taller bases.  Having the Primaris range as just upscaled marines would have been 100% more palatable than this shoehorning into the fluff, claiming that some can remember when the primarchs last strode the galaxy, to having them frozen in the basement for 10k years.

 

It feels and seems like, GW have missed opportunities with the release of 8th edition.  Rather than spending time and money on the daftness of Primaris, they could have been retooling and redesigning the Chaos range, Eldar range, giving plastic models in place of resin ones, Ork range (basic boyz are how old now?) and basically doing anything else that didn't require the butchering of the fluff that will now, at some point, affect the Horus Heresy series.  The Chaos and Xenos ranges have been neglected for far too long, as have the chapters based off the first legions, when it comes to Games Workshop.  Upgrade kits come and go, but never really seem to be around long enough to really matter in the greater scheme of things, which is why Forge World do them, and we take money that could have been spent with GW and put it in to FW, or, 3rd parties who are producing the things people want (but that's another topic).

 

The whole Primaris Vs Basic marines thing has once again been, at the same time, and epic success, and an epic failure.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Damo1701

[Spiky Norman]

I cannot help but wonder how many of the ones who really dislike the lore concerning the Primaris marines have actually read the Dark Imperium novel for instance. I personally have not, as I've only heard a podcast that went over it, and listening to that walk-through and comparing what is being mentioned in 40k forums seems worlds apart in depths, coherence and general coolness.

I can only imagine that reading would provide an even better experience.

[Sete]

I have. Didn't change my opinion.

I'm making an active effort to like them, because I love the 40k universe.

Unfortunately they dropped out of nowhere, the Stormcast of 40k. It's just poor handling of the situation.

Also the fact that Inceptors and agressors look like StarCraft units. Don't get me started on reivers.

 

If they expand the range with the Intercessors traditional look, I'll have a go.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Sete

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I agree with reivers looking totally stupid. If not only for the single reason, why arm a warrior of that capability with a Knife and bolt pistol? If you are going to rip of a covert stealth unit that can strike fear with class weaponry call them "predators" with shoulder mounted plasma guns and twin bladed retractable wrist mounted killing blades

 

On the whole, I'd of preferred if Tall Marines hadn't been launched this way. If anything rename the space marines to Primaris marines (as they did after all come first....) Then offer a supplement to the next "level" or "upgrade". I'd of liked to see mixed geenseed marines. That would of offered a whole new dynamic  to the way in which inter legionary relation's were formed. Cawl could of simply been given the task to look into gene splicing, which has for example a 50/50 chance to generate amazing marines with mixed geneseed properties which helped to tackle the redundancies of other legions geenseed. As a result the "mixed marines" may be slightly stronger, more agile etc but had a lesser production rate chance. (Maybe even hint at unaffected traitor legion geenseed being mixed with loyalists)

 

Anything other than "We've had super astartes on ice and the ability to do better for ten thousand years but nobody asked us to............."

Edited September 14, 2017 by The_son_of_Dorn

[Frater Cornelius]

I cannot help but wonder how many of the ones who really dislike the lore concerning the Primaris marines have actually read the Dark Imperium novel for instance. I personally have not, as I've only heard a podcast that went over it, and listening to that walk-through and comparing what is being mentioned in 40k forums seems worlds apart in depths, coherence and general coolness.

I can only imagine that reading would provide an even better experience.

 

I did and it actually changed my opinion for the better, not that I disliked them to begin with. My primary criticism is that their rule set is bland.

[Death Dealer 101]

How did they drop out of nowhere, cawl has been building them for 1000's of years in secret. Just the kind of forward and smart thinking the imperium lacks. Spooky technology was getting realy old and I was kinda over praying to a bullet. Edited September 14, 2017 by Death Dealer 101

[Sete]

And that line of lore and character came from where?

 

You were never introduced to Cawl. You were never introduced to a secret between Guilliman and a guy from Mars. Not even a hint. The Imperium tethered on the brink of annihilation more than once and a guy that makes deals with Xenos and tech heresy suddenly needs permission to use super marines? It does not fit that type of character.

 

Guy Haley did a good job with the book (and sales pitch of the Primaris).

But like other Frater said before me, they are poorly developed and abysmally introduced.

The intercessors are gorgeous miniatures. But that's it. I'm a guy that needs proper fluff with the miniatures.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Sete

[Blindhamster]

But like other Frater said before me, they are poorly developed and abysmally introduced.

 

Purely opinion.

 

People need to stop stating things in a manner that suggests fact.

 

It's fine to not like them, its fine to not like how they were introduced, its fine to have opinions on how it could have been better. But It's also fine to have the opposite opinion.

 

I like them, I like how they were introduced for the most part.

 

1. The fact they weren't actually just vat grown marines made me very happy
2. The fact they provided a link to a time when the imperium was better (well, better may not be a word, but less dogmatic at least) is something that appealed to me.
3. The fact it introduced a move forward in technology, was a good thing for me, frankly I've been bored of "oh look, we found another STC" as an excuse for anything new.
4. The fact they are not perfect, but the best Cawl could manage with 10k years (descriptions of the organs show that he's been advancing stuff, but even with all that time, still couldn't crack the emperors handy work).
5. The fact they were a part of pushing the story forward (hurrah, I will admit my only gripe here being that I'd like more detail on whats happened over the last 100-150 years, but i'm sure we'll get that).

 

Their introduction is no more jarring than when Tau suddenly came out of nowhere as a major threat and advanced civilisation that the Imperium had no idea about. The Imperium is a big place, people don't know about everything, why should we have been aware of a clandestine project that nobody other than Cawl, his aides and Guilliman were 100% certain to be aware of.

[Sete]

Ofc it's opinion man.

I'm not preaching universal truth. Yet.

About your post:

1- agree.

2- don't really like it.

3- Some new tech is fine but. I actually like the repulsor.

4- I still need development on that.

5- let's see where we go from now on. It's not a setting anymore.

 

An alien race being introduced is no more shocking that new tech and new marines on a ignorant backwards and superstitious empire.

Everyone accepted it too easily.

I need more conflict.

[Blindhamster]

my gut feeling, is that you may well get the conflict you desire as the story progresses :D

[Sete]

Hopefully. When things stabilize I need intrigue and backstabbing. I need the High Lords to try to frame Guilliman (ressurected by Xenos!)

To keep things interesting. ;)

Edited September 15, 2017 by Sete

[Arkangilos]

How is it still not a setting? Just because it moved forwards doesn't mean it's not a setting.

[Sete]

It's a narrative.

Things moved foward, they are evolving.

First Magnus, 112 years later Mortarion, let's see the pace this will take.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Sete