Screamers, far overcosted? Or am I missing something?

[themortalgod]

Was looking to add some screamers to my list today and just couldn't get past their high pts cost. For 3pts more than a Flamer you get slightly better close combat threat (but nothing special), no shooting, and the low odds of occasionally doing a MW or two if you choose to fly over stuff instead of assaulting?

 

Does anyone else feel that 31pts per model for a screamer feel a bit over the top? Am I missing something that makes them better than they seem? As it stands they don't appear to be very good at anything but come at a premium pts cost. Is this just a situation of hoping they get better when the codex comes out? (Though, in AoS screamers were also way overpriced relative to their effectiveness and continue to be even after a small pts reduction in GH2.0 so perhaps GW sees something in their design that makes them more valuable than they seem. They are pretty similar in both games now)

 

The only benefit I see is that they are fast, but not so fast as to justify their cost. Thoughts?

 

[mmimzie]

Screamers can bring thier attacks to bear turn 1 with thier 16" move. On top of that when summoned can attempt to charge the first turn they drop. From thier the screamers can also be buffed by boon of change and actualy get something out of it. They also benefit from the daemon prince reroll, and the herald str buff. 

[themortalgod]

Personally, I wouldn't consider a 16" move enough to be first turn threat, assuming you start 24" away at minimum thats an 8" charge (41%) only if my opponent is set up right on the line directly across from the screamers. If not its more like a 9" or 10"charge which then becomes more like a 27% or 16% chance. Not something I'd ever count on and if you fail you are stuck in the open as a fragile unit. 

 

Tbh I really don't see the draw of summoning as a whole in 8th. It just feels like really crappy deep strike compared to other armies. Everyone else gets to deep strike without risk and now we have to be 12" from a hero, have a chance to fail, have a chance to not get as many models as we want, and a chance to either hurt or kill an HQ when we try to "deep strike"

 

The str buff is ok but how often is it really a factor? If you are in range of a herald you probably aren't taking advantage of screamer speed which is really their only strength. 

 

Also, all that said, Seekers have all the same pros but come in at a third fewer pts to fill the same role. 

[mmimzie]

Personally, I wouldn't consider a 16" move enough to be first turn threat, assuming you start 24" away at minimum thats an 8" charge (41%) only if my opponent is set up right on the line directly across from the screamers. If not its more like a 9" or 10"charge which then becomes more like a 27% or 16% chance. Not something I'd ever count on and if you fail you are stuck in the open as a fragile unit.

 

Tbh I really don't see the draw of summoning as a whole in 8th. It just feels like really crappy deep strike compared to other armies. Everyone else gets to deep strike without risk and now we have to be 12" from a hero, have a chance to fail, have a chance to not get as many models as we want, and a chance to either hurt or kill an HQ when we try to "deep strike"

 

The str buff is ok but how often is it really a factor? If you are in range of a herald you probably aren't taking advantage of screamer speed which is really their only strength.

 

Also, all that said, Seekers have all the same pros but come in at a third fewer pts to fill the same role.

Seekers also do a third of the damage to everything and dont have a buff like boon.

 

My experience in summoning doesnt meet with what your same. Specially in an all daemons army. Heralds won't be getting hurt until pretty the whole rest of your army is dead, and if they are getting attacked 1 or 2 wounds dont make the difference at all. Other than that it's all about what your summoning.

 

8" charges are >60% chance with command points >50% for a 9".

 

Anyway as I see it you picked 2 units, bad and worse. The flamers struggle to really get in range and when they do the damage isn't impressive. You'd do more damage more consistently with smiting heralds (tzeench getting that range boost, others being cheaper with better powers or a slaannesh Herald doing it for cheap). A character smiting does the same average marine damage as the flamers, but can attack from futher away. They are safer because thier character protected by a unit, and have other options. Only downside is that it's difficult to target what you want all the time.

 

Also heralds summoning more heralds can increase thier smite spam threat and make targeting more reliably, with a vanishly small chance of failure. A pink horror squad is also stronger than the flamer, as summoning them fire turn can let you shoot + smite very reliably for more average damage out the gate.

 

I definitly dont think screamers rock, but I think flamers are some where between alittle worse than screams to useless. More to the former in mono tzeentch and more the latter in mixed daemons. With screamers following closely behind in both cases.

[Sawtooth]

I haven't had much luck with them, unfortunately. I like their close combat potential with lamprey bite, but the number of attacks really cripples this. I could toss Boon of Change to try to remedy this on normal attacks, but honesty I usually have a better unit/character to buff with it. I think I'd be much more into them if they just had more attacks with lamprey bite.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Sawtooth

[themortalgod]

 

Seekers also do a third of the damage to everything and dont have a buff like boon.

 

My experience in summoning doesnt meet with what your same. Specially in an all daemons army. Heralds won't be getting hurt until pretty the whole rest of your army is dead, and if they are getting attacked 1 or 2 wounds dont make the difference at all. Other than that it's all about what your summoning.

 

8" charges are >60% chance with command points >50% for a 9".

 

Anyway as I see it you picked 2 units, bad and worse. The flamers struggle to really get in range and when they do the damage isn't impressive. You'd do more damage more consistently with smiting heralds (tzeench getting that range boost, others being cheaper with better powers or a slaannesh Herald doing it for cheap). A character smiting does the same average marine damage as the flamers, but can attack from futher away. They are safer because thier character protected by a unit, and have other options. Only downside is that it's difficult to target what you want all the time.

 

Also heralds summoning more heralds can increase thier smite spam threat and make targeting more reliably, with a vanishly small chance of failure. A pink horror squad is also stronger than the flamer, as summoning them fire turn can let you shoot + smite very reliably for more average damage out the gate.

 

I definitly dont think screamers rock, but I think flamers are some where between alittle worse than screams to useless. More to the former in mono tzeentch and more the latter in mixed daemons. With screamers following closely behind in both cases.

 

 

Personally, unless the charge is like an 80%+ I'm not gonna bank on it when the downside is losing a high cost unit. In my experience I can never count on a long charge roll. 

 

Seekers also have a powerful combat steroid in the form of Hysterical Frenzy and are more likely to be in position to gain a +1 str from a mounted herald. Def not the same damage output but also not 1/3. They also excel at taking on strong armor saves. 

 

Flamers damage output is pretty good imo, I wish their weapons were assault instead of pistol though. And they fill a very specific need that nothing else in the book does in that they can obliterate celexus assassins. In the current meta that is such a valuable tool when an huge -2 cast aura can have such tremendous impact on our army's effectiveness. Overall I'm pretty happy with flamers as they are right now. 

 

I think for screamers that I wish Gw would go back to more slash attack output. I remember in the last edition of Fantasy their slash attack was actually worth using and it made them tactically unique, but giving up the ability to charge for a 1/6 chance per screamer to do a wound just isn't enough.  

[mmimzie]

I can agree with you so much that they definitly over needed the slash. It was broke in 7th and they were scared it would be too broken so they needed it deep under the earth where no one will see it

[themortalgod]

I can agree with you so much that they definitly over needed the slash. It was broke in 7th and they were scared it would be too broken so they needed it deep under the earth where no one will see it

 

Ya, I think GW really needs to learn subtlety with nerfs, its always these big pendulums from OP to, useless, then back to OP. 

 

Imo it should never have been MWs, thats probably part of why they were so worried about it. Instead should have been a shooting attack with "0" range that could only target units that the screamers flew over during the movement phase. Then it could have  to hit, to wound, rend, and damage which would allow it to be more reasonably balanced. (and more consistent)

Edited September 1, 2017 by themortalgod

[mmimzie]

 

 

I can agree with you so much that they definitly over needed the slash. It was broke in 7th and they were scared it would be too broken so they needed it deep under the earth where no one will see it

Ya, I think GW really needs to learn subtlety with nerfs, its always these big pendulums from OP to, useless, then back to OP.

 

Imo it should never have been MWs, thats probably part of why they were so worried about it. Instead should have been a shooting attack with "0" range that could only target units that the screamers flew over during the movement phase. Then it could have to hit, to wound, rend, and damage which would allow it to be more reasonably balanced. (and more consistent)

 

I was thinking they could just make it a thing they use when they charge, and let them leave melee and charge in the same turn. It's be risky as you always eat over watch, but the slashing plus thier melee would be pretty cool.

 

Oh and on the seeker. That hysterical frenzy I think wins the prize as maybe the worst power in the game. They fight in your psyke phase. This means one of the most fragile units in the game (guard stats at 7pts a model) has to service at least 1 turn of melee, and most likely 2. Either you charge on your turn fight in your fight phase and then your enemy's (odds are even to enemy guard or marines your losing several models) or they have to charge you, at which point you don't get to pick what they fight or you get out maneuvered where you have like in issues.

 

Screams can just use the boon. Straight up, but it's on a rather bad attack.

 

I hope daemons get thier own book. To sure up some of these issues. Currently its all daemon princes, heralds, and lesser daemons (except daemonettes if your doing mixed).