Air cav tips

[librisrouge]

Ok, so, I went to a tournament with this and I got treated like a red-headed, rented stepchild, magically transformed into a mule, on Friday the 13th (it was bad.)

 

To be fair, I live in a very competitive environment with plenty of players that are both up on, and adapt with, the general and local metas. Winning was never really in the cards. However, I've never done this poor at an event ever. I went 0-3 and only scored two points the entire events (Big Game Hunter and Slay the Warlord in separate games.)

 

My general impressions on units and effectiveness:

Company Commander (C+) - With the inclusion of Yarrick and Harker to my list, this guy generally just filled up an HQ slot. The few times he contributed, my dice just didn't seem to need him or sucked enough that it still didn't matter. Still, cheap as chips and could have been useful. Besides, what IG army is complete without at least one officer?

Yarrick (A-) - He's a lot of points for an army like this, honestly. You can almost get another flyer for his points, or a buckets of upgrades. He's great for IG, in general, just overkill when his aura isn't benefiting enough units (or powerful enough units) and moral only matters if there are survivors.
Command Squad - Plasmagun x4 (A-) - The minus is just because of my dice, honestly. If I do this list again (I won't) Yarrick will be replaced with an officer and another one of these. IG doesn't survive a counter attack anyway, so the full firepower these guys bring is gold.
Officer of the Fleet (B) - In a flyer army, you'd think these guys would be an auto A+. However, needing Boots on the Ground (bite me GW and Space Marine players everywhere) meant that I unloaded them early (behing LoS or certainly not the closest model) in order to avoid being tabled. It worked, well even. However, it meant they were often too far away to can in strafing runs.
Sergeant Harker (B) - An A+ in any other IG army that doesn't mind being baby ogryns. However, flyers don't benefit from his aura. He still shoots a bit and helps the 1-2 units he's near, but an officer would do similar with two orders, and have more options if you didn't want Take Aim!
Veteran Squad -Plasmagun x3 © - They do what Command Squads do but worse and for more points. Also, take a heavy weapon (-1 to hit when moving isn't as bit a deal when you're generally still accurate.) I kept finding that they didn't hit hard enough to even cripple enemies, who would them wipe them out with relative ease.

Veteran Squad -Meltaguns x3 (D) - Everything that plasmavets can do but they have to get closer to do it and can't kill as many bodies. Sigh. If my flyer died, and they dropped like pigeons, then I've got a squad with little to do without surviving a jog across no-man's-land.
Arvus Lighter -Twin Heavy Stubber x2 © - I didn't expect much and got it. A cheaper IG flyer, and for good reason, but it lived up to my, admittedly, low expectations and garnered a host of entertaining attention from people who'd never seen one and just had to give it a good look. I might try autocannons in the future but that makes it expensive fast.
Valkyrie -Missile Pods x2 and Multilaser (F-) - Never again. Nope. Sorry. Nadda. If I need a squad to fly so badly, they'll take an arvus. If they need to grav shoot, they'll take a vendetta. It killed nothing all event and only stripped 1-2 wounds off tougher things.
Vendetta -Twin Lascannon x3 (D) - Hitting on 5s means that the AT in this list struggled to do anything while paying a lot of points to do it. At least they're not valkyries, but an average of two lascannon hits a turn means that a few bad to-wound rolls or damage rolls and I kill nothing consistently. Doing some post game mathhammer, I've concluded that Thunderbolts and Lightnings are where our flying AT is at, and even then they're only so-so at it compared to ground based solutions.
Vulture -Twin Punisher Cannons (B) - This baby is good at exactly one role, shredding light infantry. The added shots are great but the changes to cover mean that marines with +2 saves are common and no adjustment to AP means that it is spitting into the wind to kill tough things. It slings a lot of dice, which is fun, but all of my opponents were surprised with how little it killed after a turn or two (one mentioned that he was afraid and then felt like he should have focused on the vendettas instead.)

 

Overall Army Rating (F for Fun and Failure):

Lets start with the positive, it was a fun list to play, even if it didn't do much. Zooming around just made it feel so much more active than an IG army usually feels, since we're often so static. The opponent wasn't prepared for how fast I was and all of them quickly learned to be careful about positioning.

 

Now the negative. This list isn't tough and doesn't hit hard at all. I regularly found myself only barely, or not at all, accomplishing some minimum kill goals and them getting pounded flat. -1 to hit isn't that big a deal and getting -1 to hit in return basically negates it. We're not marine flyers, and it shows badly. Even grav shooting in and busting out previously (7th ed.) devastating close ranged guns akimbo against the right targets never seemed to do much. Either the enemy was too tough (Nurgle daemon engines and mechanicus robots) or too numerous (conscripts) for it to matter. Then the counter attack happened and I'd find that I'm down another 3-4 units. I never got tabled, but I did find myself wishing that having to worry about it didn't affect my battle plans as much.

 

Maneuverability deserves its own topic. It almost didn't matter. Getting places doesn't matter if I can't do a thing once I get there. Only once was my speed really useful the whole event and even after the Primaris Ancient was dead (stupid banner) I still was hard put to hurt the rest of his force. I'll try a thunderbolt sometime soon, just not recently.

 

Final point, and a bit of bitter grief. Does every marine player in the world suddenly own 60+ guardsmen? The guy in me that has been playing IG for 12+ years really chaffs to see all of these "marine" armies with mostly IG bodies because conscripts are "suddenly" good. I feel like a terrible hipster, but I've been using conscripts since Chenkov and if another guy comments on how "Of course..." I'm using them now, imma pop him in the snot locker.

[Tirak]

Yeah, running a thematic Air Cav list instead of an Air Support list really can be difficult. The need to take the transports really takes a bite out of good support units that you'd normally want in a solid Guard list with a lot of Air Support.

 

You may want to take a look at Vultures with Twin Lascannon and 2x Hellstrike missiles as replacements for your Vendettas. You're spitting out fewer shots to be sure (well, not counting the Heavy Bolter), but you're hitting on 4s, or 3s if you hover. It's 60 points cheaper to boot, freeing up some points for more useful things. I know you're taking them for the troop carrying capacity too, but at 260 points that's just too much. Arvus Lighters may not be able to grav chute, but if you think about the Air Cav list thematically, grav chuting in isn't really really what helicopter style Air Cav does.

 

Changing over to a core of Infantry with Scions for the lightning drop in style raids may make it easier to build a list. Also, I've had luck running my Punisher Vultures in pairs, as it gives you a lot more flexibility in scaring your enemy into cover.

 

If you're playing a lot of games where cover is a big deal, Astropath's are 15 points, and give you an ability to ignore cover, and since Arvus Lighters can carry 12 infantry, keeping a few on hand to shuttle around the battlefield in preparation for strikes could be worth the points.

[oldmanlee]

Nice little Wright up on your units shame you did not do so well

What armys did you play?

I know what you mean about marine players suddenly owning loads of guard becuse there good ticks me off big time

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah looking at the Vendetta I was massively disappointed with the huge cost compared to the comparatively-small punch. This edition has made me very dubious about Fliers, to the point where I've sold off a Valkyrie and Vendetta so far, (as well as a Chimera and a few Russes.)

 

I mean, it still leaves me a Vulture, Thunderbolt, Valkyrie and Vendetta left, but I'm feeling that maybe only one each will make an appearance as air-heavy seems rubbish. :/

[oldmanlee]

Yeah the vendetta is a poor flyer in the air cav list I'm playing around with I have one but I kind of need it for its transport capacity as well as the six las cannons. But I can't help but think I would be better of with a lightning or something ?

[oldmanlee]

I know it's not realy in the theme of a air cav list but has anyone tried a marauder destroyer it seems a bit good for the points you pay for it

[Tirak]

Yeah looking at the Vendetta I was massively disappointed with the huge cost compared to the comparatively-small punch. This edition has made me very dubious about Fliers, to the point where I've sold off a Valkyrie and Vendetta so far, (as well as a Chimera and a few Russes.)

 

I mean, it still leaves me a Vulture, Thunderbolt, Valkyrie and Vendetta left, but I'm feeling that maybe only one each will make an appearance as air-heavy seems rubbish. :/

 

I've been running 3-5 flyers in my lists, and I'll likely be settling on 4 as a potential tourney list. I'm running 2 Punishers, 1 AT Vulture and 1 Thunderbolt w/Skystrike. My 5 Flyer list added in a second AT Vulture, but I had to give in on points to take Sentinels for the "18" No Deepstrike Bubble". The thing is though I back that up with 4x Earthshaker Batteries and over 100 infantry. I like paired Punishers as they mean that the enemy cannot easily take care of the buzzsaw that is a Vulture with a Punisher cannon. AT Vultures are new in my list, and I'm trying them out in place of tanks, but so far they've done alright, and Thunderbolts always draw fire, and never die.

 

The Hard to Hit rule is decisive, and its been my battles with Ad Mech that pushed me into the skies. Between AP-3 and AP-4 the best defense is to not be hit, and the vast majority of weapons aimed your way will get the same 3+ to wound on you that a T8 Tank would, yet the flyer will bring more wounds to the table and get hit less often. Does it make you more vulnerable to small arms? Absolutely, but careful use of positioning and Artillery and Punishers can prune back enemy infantry so that your heavy flyers don't have to deal with that.

 

Flyer heavy has worked well for me, though I don't think Air Cav can work, because of the fluff requirement to bring transports. Properly deployed and flown flyers though can be devastating if for no other reason than soaking up enemy shooting while the rest of your army rolls on up and gets to work.

[spacepup]

I'm in the process of building an Air Mobile Scion list. Just started getting the models this past weekend. I don't expect to do great but I think it will be fun for sure.

[oldmanlee]

I'm in the process of building an Air Mobile Scion list. Just started getting the models this past weekend. I don't expect to do great but I think it will be fun for sure.

 

Yeah my air cav list is just going to be for fun don't think it's going to set the world on fire but should be good fun to play

[spacepup]

I am going with the 68th Deltic Lions. There is a sizeable lot in my group that have or wanting to do death guard and nurgle in general. So the 68th lore is they are famed for fighting against the nurgle forces. So it is only fitting.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Very fitting. Maybe they are used by an inquisitor for operations studying/fighting the plague etc? Anyway I never saw Air Cav as competitive. Way too many points tied up and not enough oomph in plenty of areas. A lot of fun to be had though.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

This edition with the elimination of ongoing reserves, and the Nerfs to flyers across the board means that flyers are going to be very situational. Not to mention Flyers that can't hover are going to be as useless as ever (Unless you're playing huge apoc scale games on a 6x8 table).

 

Guard flyers don't pack the necessary firepower to pop tanks and big creatures reliably so they're relegated to support. Which is fine, I'm good with only running a couple of flyers while my boys do most of the heavy lifting.

[Tirak]

6x4 is in no way difficult to keep all your flyers on the table. Like I've said earlier, I've been running as many as 5 flyers, and keeping them on the board is easy enough, keeping them on the board with good positioning requires a modicum of practice, but nothing over the top.

 

As far as heavy weapons go, aircraft like the Thunderbolt bring a Twin Lascannon and 2 Autocannons (8 Shots) for 190 points, and are hard to hit. Considering that your average Poster Russ will run you 225 points for a single Lascannon, 2 heavy Bolters and a Battlecannon, that's not bad value. Add in Hellstrike or Skystrike missiles, and you've got a potent weapons platform with more wounds than a Russ, but getting shot at with less accuracy by the same weapons that would shoot the Russ.

 

Now if you run Elysians, then your flyers can actually deepstrike, giving you much the same functionality as before.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Also worth noting that in this post-Firing Arcs world we live in, positioning doesn't matter.

 

Makes dogfights really boring.

[oldmanlee]

Guys with the vendetta not being very good at an anti tanks roll has anyone tried a vulture in the roll?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Also worth noting that in this post-Firing Arcs world we live in, positioning doesn't matter.

 

Makes dogfights really boring.

Well, That really makes me both happy and sad at the same time...

6x4 is in no way difficult to keep all your flyers on the table. Like I've said earlier, I've been running as many as 5 flyers, and keeping them on the board is easy enough, keeping them on the board with good positioning requires a modicum of practice, but nothing over the top.

 

As far as heavy weapons go, aircraft like the Thunderbolt bring a Twin Lascannon and 2 Autocannons (8 Shots) for 190 points, and are hard to hit. Considering that your average Poster Russ will run you 225 points for a single Lascannon, 2 heavy Bolters and a Battlecannon, that's not bad value. Add in Hellstrike or Skystrike missiles, and you've got a potent weapons platform with more wounds than a Russ, but getting shot at with less accuracy by the same weapons that would shoot the Russ.

 

Now if you run Elysians, then your flyers can actually deepstrike, giving you much the same functionality as before.

That's not a bad analysis. Maybe I need to Get on with building my thunderbolts...

[CoffeeGrunt]

Likewise. Was talking about having an air battle, then we both realised it's kinda pointless as you can shoot all your weapons, everywhere, meaning that outmaneuvering each other simple doesn't come into it. Not to mention the loss of armour facings.

[Tirak]

Guys with the vendetta not being very good at an anti tanks roll has anyone tried a vulture in the roll?

 

I've been taking them and have had good results. They're very flexible due to the Hover Mode. Most of the time, you'll want to have them ripping along at full speed, firing everything at a single target. Flyers attract fire, but the Hard to Hit rule makes them surprisingly tough, and their 14 wounds makes them hard to take down without a serious investment in enemy firepower. If nothing else, a flyer like the Vulture is a good fire magnet to draw heavy weapons away from your other important things.

 

However, there are better choices. I take flyers because I love jets, but if I'm honest, I could get 9 Lascannons on Heavy Weapons teams for what I'm spending on a single Vulture and OOTF, or a group of deepstriking Plasma gun elysians, but if you like Jets, the AT Vulture is decent enough for its points.

[oldmanlee]

 

Guys with the vendetta not being very good at an anti tanks roll has anyone tried a vulture in the roll?

 

 

I've been taking them and have had good results. They're very flexible due to the Hover Mode. Most of the time, you'll want to have them ripping along at full speed, firing everything at a single target. Flyers attract fire, but the Hard to Hit rule makes them surprisingly tough, and their 14 wounds makes them hard to take down without a serious investment in enemy firepower. If nothing else, a flyer like the Vulture is a good fire magnet to draw heavy weapons away from your other important things.

 

However, there are better choices. I take flyers because I love jets, but if I'm honest, I could get 9 Lascannons on Heavy Weapons teams for what I'm spending on a single Vulture and OOTF, or a group of deepstriking Plasma gun elysians, but if you like Jets, the AT Vulture is decent enough for its points.

 

Yeah I know there are better options but air cav looks cool

[Tirak]

 

 

Guys with the vendetta not being very good at an anti tanks roll has anyone tried a vulture in the roll?

 

I've been taking them and have had good results. They're very flexible due to the Hover Mode. Most of the time, you'll want to have them ripping along at full speed, firing everything at a single target. Flyers attract fire, but the Hard to Hit rule makes them surprisingly tough, and their 14 wounds makes them hard to take down without a serious investment in enemy firepower. If nothing else, a flyer like the Vulture is a good fire magnet to draw heavy weapons away from your other important things.

 

However, there are better choices. I take flyers because I love jets, but if I'm honest, I could get 9 Lascannons on Heavy Weapons teams for what I'm spending on a single Vulture and OOTF, or a group of deepstriking Plasma gun elysians, but if you like Jets, the AT Vulture is decent enough for its points.

 

Yeah I know there are better options but air cav looks cool

 

 

Air Support is cool, though Minimum 2 Flyers in my opinion, otherwise they just get focused early. I've been thinking about running a pure Vulture group (I'm using AMX A-11s for my AT equipped Vultures), but I love my TBolt too much to do that.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I had been thinking about running an Elysian Air Support detachment with Krieg mud crunchers as a cohesive force. What say ye?

[oldmanlee]

 

 

 

Guys with the vendetta not being very good at an anti tanks roll has anyone tried a vulture in the roll?

 

 

I've been taking them and have had good results. They're very flexible due to the Hover Mode. Most of the time, you'll want to have them ripping along at full speed, firing everything at a single target. Flyers attract fire, but the Hard to Hit rule makes them surprisingly tough, and their 14 wounds makes them hard to take down without a serious investment in enemy firepower. If nothing else, a flyer like the Vulture is a good fire magnet to draw heavy weapons away from your other important things.

 

However, there are better choices. I take flyers because I love jets, but if I'm honest, I could get 9 Lascannons on Heavy Weapons teams for what I'm spending on a single Vulture and OOTF, or a group of deepstriking Plasma gun elysians, but if you like Jets, the AT Vulture is decent enough for its points.

Yeah I know there are better options but air cav looks cool

 

Air Support is cool, though Minimum 2 Flyers in my opinion, otherwise they just get focused early. I've been thinking about running a pure Vulture group (I'm using AMX A-11s for my AT equipped Vultures), but I love my TBolt too much to do that.

The list I'm working on has 7 flyers with 6 being vulture and valkes and one avenger as I love the model

[oldmanlee]

I had been thinking about running an Elysian Air Support detachment with Krieg mud crunchers as a cohesive force. What say ye?

 

Yeah why not Krieg are awsome models

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

I had been thinking about running an Elysian Air Support detachment with Krieg mud crunchers as a cohesive force. What say ye?

 

Yeah why not Krieg are awsome models

 

well, I was thinking less about the models and more about their rules. Because most of my models are Cadian, and I'd like to use Kreig rules to approximate a sufficiently determined Cadian force. A Small elysian Air Support detachment of 2 vultures and 2 thunderbolts seems like a good addition to a krieg force.

[Guardsman Bob]

Yeah looking at the Vendetta I was massively disappointed with the huge cost compared to the comparatively-small punch. This edition has made me very dubious about Fliers, to the point where I've sold off a Valkyrie and Vendetta so far, (as well as a Chimera and a few Russes.)

 

I mean, it still leaves me a Vulture, Thunderbolt, Valkyrie and Vendetta left, but I'm feeling that maybe only one each will make an appearance as air-heavy seems rubbish. :/

Things are still peachy-keen for plentul twin-linked Assault Cannon Storm Ravens. Sure GW errataed it so boots-on-the-ground is a victory condition. It just means all those five man tactical Squads will start on the ground in cover or embarked in Razorbacks (armed with you know what) at the cost of two Stormravens.

 

CoffeGrunt your sell off comment just emphasizes that how perfectly GW screwed-the-pooch with BS 4+ and heavy weapons.