Is Issodon too strong?

[Frostglaive]

I'm sure everyone here at one point or another came across the whole Forge World stigma. Where "FW is too over-powered," "You're That Guy if you bring FW," "You're not allowed to bring FW models to games here," blah blah blah. Now, at least in my area, that stigma's slowly going away. I can actually bring Forge World models into a game if I wanted (although I typically don't) without any issue..... just as long as they're not too strong.

 

The reason I'm bringing this up, I'm considering starting up a detachment of Raptors to go along with my (not) Raven Guard. Which means I want to start bringing Lias Issodon. Read about him a lot on these forums, and he sounds like a total beast. I'd love to build up a model and start running him with my soon-to-be Raptors. But him being Forge World, plus the lousy stigma involved with it amongst my player group, I am a little hesitant on it.

 

So my question, having never read his official rules yet, is Issodon too strong? Over-powered and/or under-cost in points? Or would I be able to get away with running him without too much complaint?

[SkimaskMohawk]

He is too strong, in that hes already kitted out with really nice Wargear, has a secondary aura and a fallback bonus. And then the deepstrike enabler.

 

Your opponents probably wouldn't mind if you just deepstrike one or two junk units in your first few games, instead of using it for a brutal alpha strike with plasma commands or one of the other inferior options.

[Lemondish]

He's got amazing wargear and great rules like Grim Hunter (can shoot and advance after falling back), Chapter Master, and Stealth Modified Armour (+2 to saving throws when in cover) before you even get into his Ambush ability (set up 3 units with him in the shadows to deploy like reinforcements). 

 

That's where you'll probably run into the most difficulty with your group because, based on what I can see, that ability alone allows you to combine 4 drops into 1, which gives you a huge advantage for first turn and can basically let you set up a powerful gunline anywhere on the field based on your opponent's deployment. He can't take Cents, Termies, or Primaris with you, which is a shame because a bunch of Hellblasters would be fantastic. 

[White Hunter]

Honestly the issue really is point cost versus what it costs to replicate his ability. Issodon is maybe the best value in the game as he gives you a great HQ and the equivalent of three drop pods for the much less than the cost of three drop pods. I recently played a small game with him in a vangaurd detachment at around a thousand points and even with pretty basic loadouts combining him with any shooty choice is pretty brutal. He and two units of Sternguard ripped apart two separate units of Khorn Berzerkers and a Defiler in one turn (thanks to re-rolls and strategems). They went on to crush all of his cultists and take out some additional armor in subsequent turns. Bottom line is that neither his combat ability nor auras provide that great an improvement, however the fact that you don't have to take transports for a large part of your army means that those points can be spend on additional firepower. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by White Hunter

[Amayasu]

He's considerably undercosted for what he does. I don't think anyone could make a serious argument that he's costed appropriately.

 

It's disappointing as the stigma was indeed going away. But with the new IA indexes we're back to being handed stuff that is flatout better than codex units for less points.

[MajorNese]

Honestly the issue really is point cost versus what it costs to replicate his ability. Issodon is maybe the best value in the game as he gives you a great HQ and the equivalent of three drop pods for the much less than the cost of three drop pods.

 

Comparing him to 3 drop pods is actually a bit inaccurate. He may be dropping 30 power armoured dudes just like a pod, but no one would use a pod this way in this edition. If dropping tacticals, why drop a squad of 10? You get twice the combi/special weapons if taking 2 squads of 5. Having 30 guns next to the enemy might be nice, but auras would multiply that. Earmark half of one pod for characters, and you get every available buff. That way, 3 pods would actually drop 5 squads and up to 5 characters, which is more than 3 times what Issodon can do. Once Issodon tries to include buff characters, the number of pods he is supposed to replace drops sharply. Yes, his ability is good, but it rarely replaces 3 pods, rather one or two.

[Lemondish]

He's considerably undercosted for what he does. I don't think anyone could make a serious argument that he's costed appropriately.

 

It's disappointing as the stigma was indeed going away. But with the new IA indexes we're back to being handed stuff that is flatout better than codex units for less points.

The stigma never left my area because it was only a matter of time before FW continued their reign of terror with clearly overpowered units for cheap (in points). It's just kind of funny that in this case it doesn't even support their bottomline. The indexes were supposed to be the saving grace for me, but it turns out that where they weren't making stupid errors (Elysian plasma guns do 3 damage when supercharged) they'd do something like Lias at just less than 200 points.

 

Which sucks because I like everything about him even if he didn't have the ambush ability.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Lemondish

[highwind]

I dont see how Lias is severely overpowered and/or undercosted...

 

Yes, he can save you points on Drop Pods but with the Raven Guard CT (which Raptors use) you could already infiltrate those units via the Raven Guard Stratagem anyway. Adding 1 to any movement is nice but not game breaking good.

His Stealth Armour rule is quite useless because he is a character and rarely gets shot and besides being a Chapter Master he does NOT have any invul safe, drastically limiting his melee potential.

 

Just compare him to Azrael, who is 15pts cheaper, has about the same profile, weapons and CM bubble but offers 4++ to EVERY unit around him, which is potentially massiv for units like tanks and dreadnoughts.

 

And dont even get me started on Guilliman... 

[Claws and Effect]

The thing about Issodon's infiltration ability is that it doesn't cost Command Points to use.

 

He can infiltrate himself and 3 Infantry units. For free. Doing the same with SFTS costs 4 CP.

 

That's pretty huge in a list that isn't likely to have more than 7 or 8 CP to work with. If you use it for the unitd Lias could have brought in you've burned through half your total CP before the game has even begun.

 

In short, not really overpowered, but probably a little undercosted.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Claws and Effect

[MajorNese]

The thing about Issodon's infiltration ability is that it doesn't cost Command Points to use.

 

He can infiltrate himself and 3 Infantry units. For free. Doing the same with SFTS costs 4 CP.

SftS works differently. First of all, SftS is the old Infiltrate, while Lias' ability is the old Deep Strike, both have their up- and downsides. Second, Lias' is limited to scout and power armour, while most people use SftS for more powerful (primaris) stuff like Aggressors. Imagine him dropping 3 squads of hellblasters, that would be OP as hell.

 

Lias is a curious one..."Hey, we could add this little rule" repeated a bit too often, making him undercosted if every ability had a fixed price tag. A bit weird for him to have a 2+ armour AND camo cloak, leading to his ridiculous 0+ armour in cover. Compared to generic chapter masters, who don't even have a 2+ armour, that's maybe a bit too much.