8th edition blues

[Claws and Effect]

Earned a rare like from me for that one.

 

Well put.

 

Another reason I am glad 8th changed things. My wife has a large Tyranid army, but has not yet played a game. I have the distinct feeling she would have ended up very frustrated playing her Nids against my Raven Guard with 7th edition rules.

 

The LAST thing I want is for the one person I want to enjoy the game to end up frustrated and not wanting to play because she can't put a dent in my Marines.

[Torvak Kyre]

I've played a few games of 8th but can't really get myself too excited for it anymore. A lot of randomness has been removed which, though I am not entirely against, I feel has taken away a bit of tension. Sure the Daemon Table got a bit crazy and I believe that Psykers should be able to go into battle knowing what powers they should use, but no scatter with deepstrike and choosing when reserves come on seems a bit far.

 

I had loads of great moments back since I started in 5th where I had to try and squeeze a unit onto the board when deepstriking and risk them suffering a mishap. The amount of tension when it could have changed the tide of battle on a dice roll has now disappeared. I understand that for fully competitive play random rolls like this are a bit of a liability but in narrative play it was great fun. Now you know when your models will come on and where they will and have no problems at all.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are loads of things I love in 8th. Movement characteristics, damage values, charging from reserves, keywords, rend values and more are all great additions. However, there are a lot more things that I miss from 7th. Vehicle facings, vehicles actually differing from monsters (though I agree that they need some work to not suck), large choice of psychic powers, USR (though they did get crazy) and models actually being immune to some forms of damage (Warlord titan actually being damaged by a flashlight, however unlikely, really?). I also love my templates with all my heart, however unwieldy.

 

I find myself more and more thinking that 7th would be better for me, though a mix of both systems would be my dream.

 

Note: I play 40k Space Wolves and 30k Luna Wolves (these I always played against other 40k armies as there was never a HH community around me as far as I know. Now I'm left with an army that if I want to use I lose a lot of character). Neither of these are played particularly competitively.

 

EDIT: I'm not even going to start on the new fluff, partly because it doesn't have too much of an affect on game play and partly because this is a family friendly forum.

[Honda]

I mean, we don't assume a Space Marine Sergeant has his chainsword held over his head for an entire battle. The models we're using are in static positions, but it seems silly to me to assume that what they are representing is equally static. A Stormraven doesn't stop in midair during the other players turn. It is still moving, but the model physically can't.

 

It's a case where being an abstraction is a valid explanation.

 

 

Understand and I accept the explanation. I would prefer the firing arcs to come back and for aircraft you can do that with the advanced air rules. Also fly off the board and come back.

 

So I think the seeds are there.

 

I think some "seeds" are easier to digest than others. Mind you, from a gaming perspective, I think no arcs simplifies things greatly and not at the expense of playability, so I'm Ok if it stays.

 

October is my 30th anniversary in the GW hobby so lets just try and be a little more understanding and not turn this site into another site of intolerance and bitter feuding over which version is the best.

 

 

As someone who lived through WRG Edition wars, I can assure you that is not going to happen here. The guys with the cattle prods (i.e. Mods) will let the herd mosey around for awhile, but the BnC is not a public restroom for people to come relieve themselves of all the bile they've been saving up.

 

We can discuss, we can disagree, but in the end we'll all move on.

[Brother Sefiel]

Greetings

I haven't played 8th edition. I haven't seen anything that makes me want to, either. That being said, I haven't had a good, close-up look at a game in play. It might make a difference, but some things, like getting rid of Initiative and flamers v flyers really (okay, perhaps a little irrationally) irritate me. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the stuff like the rules for armour penalties, twin-linked, combi-weapons and everyone being able to split fire. I just think that GW could have added them on to 7th and improved that instead of fundamentally rewriting things.

A hard-reboot does allow for constant rebalancing - as we're seeing - but that's only really any good if the rules are a free thing that you can get online. And that doesn't sell a lot of books. So much for that idea...

Going for two months without a game, after playing basically every week for three years was something of a wrench. Unfortunately, as I'm extremely lazy, I haven't worked on my 7.5 project since summer began. So I'll just continue to play 7th on rare occasions.

[RandomMarine]

For me 8th seems perfect for pick up games is your flgs but when you want that big multi faction battle with intricate play styles 7th is better. IMO I think its abit early in the cycle to throw 8th out the window, when all the codices are out and we start see the first warzone books will when a final judgement can be made

[fisheyedbunny]

Just out of curiosity has anyone tried the new edition points in a 7th edition game?

 

The index's in theory should be balanced with each other and while there are rules that are not represented it might be a good grounding for the people who liked 7th but felt that there was to much codex creep.

[Damo1701]

Just out of curiosity has anyone tried the new edition points in a 7th edition game?

 

The index's in theory should be balanced with each other and while there are rules that are not represented it might be a good grounding for the people who liked 7th but felt that there was to much codex creep.

Half the issue with 8th is that vehicle points are far too high, I mean, look at the Rhino and Drop Pods. X2 and x3 respectively compared to 7th edition.

 

Unfortunately, 7th is still superior in this case.

 

What really needed to happen was that every faction needed a 7th edition codex, not the mess we have now.

[MoK]

Let's face it, if you were DAs in 7th Transports were free. Well Rhinos, Razorbacks and drop pods were. You only paid for upgrades. If you had a Battle Company, of cause. No transports in my Battle Company now

[Garreck]

Drop pods are virtually unusable. Rhinos, however, are largely more resilient and you can assault out of them now. And in my limited view of the world, a twin assault cannon razorback is the best hundred points you can spend.

[Honda]

The points costs for units do not compare across editions. Units in 8th work differently than they same unit in 7th.

 

So saying that something costs more now is not an apples to apples comparison and therefore irrelevant. You may not like the overall proportion of points expended on vehicles in 8th vs. 7th, but picking one unit (e.g. the rhino) and saying it cost more now isn't a valid comparison.

 

You might say that for the points I am spending on a rhino, I don't think being able to transport multiple units, allow assaults, assault with my rhino is worth X points. That's your opinion and you are entitled to have it. But it's just your opinion.

 

Also, talking about all the "free" stuff you used to get doesn't factor in a comparison until all the codexes are out. The challenge with things like the Gladius formation and all its freebiels is that it benefited specific armies and if you didn't have that army, then you could consider yourself at a disadvantage. Lot's of people complained about that and didn't like it.

 

Now, everyone pays for their transports. Problem solved. You may not like the fact that an advantage has been taken away, but don't be surprised if not a lot of people who didn't have that advantage don't really care that the playing field is now level again.

[Damo1701]

Cost across edition comparison work when you look at a drop pod, for example.

 

It's lost units that it can transport, has no benefit over units with a built in deep strike ability, and has tripled in points. (Roughly if you look at the codex now)

 

Running a gladius? I only ever did that once, and didn't like the way it played, or the restrictions in place.

 

There were other ways to build a competitive list that didn't allow free things, and worked closer to the fluff.

 

Now, we are currently a far cry from the time 10-man tactical squads were 300+ points, But, even then, rhinos were 50 points, you could charge from them, and they were just as survivable as they are purported to be now.

[Ishagu]

You think vehicle costs are too high? Their costs reflect their effectiveness in 8th.

 

They were dog excrement in 7th outside of a few exceptions.

[Warhead01]

It's lost units that it can transport, has no benefit over units with a built in deep strike ability, and has tripled in points. (Roughly if you look at the codex now)

 

Just to nitpick about the Drop Pods a little. 

I'm surprised that I don't see any one using them for area denial along with maybe 2 squads of scout.  I'f I ever play space Marines again I'll surly include both of those in my lists. 

Area denial and stopping a first turn charge is huge. When I say stopping a first turn charge I mean out of deep strike or as I often do it with Da Jump. Adding the Droop Pods I would think would be smart board control. 

Granted in 7th My Orks would just assault and destroy them probably.  In 8th that could be a really bad decisions. (Dice...)

[Fire Golem]

Cost across edition comparison work when you look at a drop pod, for example.

It's lost units that it can transport, has no benefit over units with a built in deep strike ability, and has tripled in points. (Roughly if you look at the codex now)

Running a gladius? I only ever did that once, and didn't like the way it played, or the restrictions in place.

There were other ways to build a competitive list that didn't allow free things, and worked closer to the fluff.

Now, we are currently a far cry from the time 10-man tactical squads were 300+ points, But, even then, rhinos were 50 points, you could charge from them, and they were just as survivable as they are purported to be now.

That's just that it's overcosted in this edition, not that it costs 2-3x what it did last edition. They may be overcosted this edition but comparing the points to previous editions doesn't mean anything other than they weren't overcosted last edition. The actual points mean nothing to each other.

[Jagus Kumkani]

With 8th edition there are more effective means for players to use Rhinos and Razorbacks for the strategic value, the effectiveness, and the resiliency of said vehicles compared to drop pods, as well as the cost.

 

For instance, I run four 5 man Tac Sqds in Razorbacks. I get 12" movement, 3" disembark on turn two, plus my 6" movement from my Tac Sqd

Plus the support form the Razorbacks' heavy bolter and my Tac Sqd flamer. That's all before I even charge. I can also keep the Razorback in a static position of need be.

[Damo1701]

 

 

It's lost units that it can transport, has no benefit over units with a built in deep strike ability, and has tripled in points. (Roughly if you look at the codex now)

 

Just to nitpick about the Drop Pods a little.

I'm surprised that I don't see any one using them for area denial along with maybe 2 squads of scout. I'f I ever play space Marines again I'll surly include both of those in my lists.

Area denial and stopping a first turn charge is huge. When I say stopping a first turn charge I mean out of deep strike or as I often do it with Da Jump. Adding the Droop Pods I would think would be smart board control.

Granted in 7th My Orks would just assault and destroy them probably. In 8th that could be a really bad decisions. (Dice...)

For the same points, you can get 5 marines, a plasma gun, and a combi-plasma.

 

Those marines can move, shoot, have ObSec, and can react to events on thee table.

 

A drop pod comes in from orbit, distorted whatever equally pointed, just as squishy unit, then is either avoided or gets destroyed. It can't hold an objective, can't effectively defend itself, and is extremely over-costed for a suicide unit.

 

Land raiders were always expensive at 250 points, but now, at 364 points, it is even harder to justify their inclusion in the list.

 

The point In trying to get at is that there is far more wrong with 8th edition, even with some of the changes coming in Chapter Approved, than I ever saw as having an issue in 7th.

 

Was 7th perfect? Of course not. The only perfect systems I've seen GW release were Blood Bowl and the original Necromunda.

 

However, fixing 7th could have been less radical, and open more minds towards the system than giving us Age of Guilliman with more glaring flaws and abuses open, which require the flood of FAQs etc that we've seen.

[Ishagu]

Landraider is really easy to justify into a list. It's a great unit. I ran one at an ITC Grand Tournament and defeated a myriad of competitive armies including Ynnari, AM, etc.

It was a joke in 7th.

 

How are you coming to these conclusions? You're ignoring performance on the tabletop.

[Jagus Kumkani]

Landraider is really easy to justify into a list. It's a great unit. I ran one at an ITC Grand Tournament and defeated a myriad of competitive armies including Ynnari, AM, etc.

It was a joke in 7th.

 

How are you coming to these conclusions? You're ignoring performance on the tabletop.

I agree. Land Raiders are beasts. Its reflected in the current edition.

[Bat33.1]

Hi my view, FWIW, is people need to forget how 7th played and look at 8th Ed as a complete new game and not a new edition. I know it's easier said than done if you have played through many edition changes but 5 to 7 were mostly evolutions with constant additions in various books that created the bloat at the close of 7th that many complained was getting too much and brought the new hammer of 8th to life.

 

Now I've not played many games of 8th but have watched plenty in store and online while I consider if I want jump in and invest in another 40k army and it's very different to 7th. Some better, some worse and some just different. I find things like flyers odd now with no arcs and they can block movement on the ground but not be blocked themselves. Why can't a ground unit move under a flyer if said flyer can move over the ground unit? Armour facing is another I miss but maybe it could be added back by reducing saves on rear arcs by 1? That's not the issue though as we have 8th and don't want more ghetto hammer splitting up groups. The LoS rules seem a step back where any visible part of the model means you can hit the full unit, same for range if a single part of the unit is in range you can hit the full unit regardless of it being in weapon range or not. That said much of this is me still having a 7th mind set and not switching over to a new game. 

 

30k was were I was taking my gaming until 8th arrived and left HH in it's GW created ghetto of 'previous edition' so no cross gaming with 30k and 40k armies. This has left me wondering if I should part with my 30k army as it's not well supported locally or try to adapt my army to 40k 8th where it will loose much of it's flavour and unique units?

 

So I would say I was excited for the 8th hype but now I am on the fence for the reality of what we have so far seen of the new 8th edition game. There are some great new models but nothing yet has convinced me to jump in and commit.

[Damo1701]

Vehicles in general are pretty much a joke in this edition.

 

Land raiders felled by lasguns, aircraft hit and felled by flamer tanks...

 

There are some glaring issues in regards to the rules that need to be fixed, two of the primary ones are flame-weapons hitting aircraft, and this stupid thing about everything wounding everything.

 

I can only relate the experiences I've had on the table top, and, if I'm honest, every one of those this edition has sucked.

 

There has been little to no enjoyment for either myself of my opponent when it comes to game length.

 

Yes, it takes far longer to set up and pack away than it does to actually play the game.

 

Getting past turn 1 with survivors has recently been a new thing, however, by the end if turn 2, it's game.

 

I have zero interest in what the Tournament scene is doing. I find that more boring than waiting for models to be delivered. It is far too obvious that TOs have been too close to the development of Age of Guilliman. In the quest for faster games, far too much has been lost. It's a shame.

[Trevak Dal]

Show me, in the fluff, where a basic human 1:1 can take a marine in a combat situation without a power weapon...

 

 

Ciaphias Cain (HERO OF THE IMPERIUM) faces down a Khorne Berserker and beats him in single combat with a Chainsword.

[Ishagu]

In the fluff it does state that non enhanced human recruits have, once or twice over thousands of years, been able to best fully fledged Space Marines during their selection trials.

[Warhead01]

 

 

It's lost units that it can transport, has no benefit over units with a built in deep strike ability, and has tripled in points. (Roughly if you look at the codex now)

Just to nitpick about the Drop Pods a little.

I'm surprised that I don't see any one using them for area denial along with maybe 2 squads of scout. I'f I ever play space Marines again I'll surly include both of those in my lists.

Area denial and stopping a first turn charge is huge. When I say stopping a first turn charge I mean out of deep strike or as I often do it with Da Jump. Adding the Droop Pods I would think would be smart board control.

Granted in 7th My Orks would just assault and destroy them probably. In 8th that could be a really bad decisions. (Dice...)

For the same points, you can get 5 marines, a plasma gun, and a combi-plasma.

 

Those marines can move, shoot, have ObSec, and can react to events on thee table.

 

A drop pod comes in from orbit, distorted whatever equally pointed, just as squishy unit, then is either avoided or gets destroyed. It can't hold an objective, can't effectively defend itself, and is extremely over-costed for a suicide unit.

 

Land raiders were always expensive at 250 points, but now, at 364 points, it is even harder to justify their inclusion in the list.

 

The point In trying to get at is that there is far more wrong with 8th edition, even with some of the changes coming in Chapter Approved, than I ever saw as having an issue in 7th.

 

Was 7th perfect? Of course not. The only perfect systems I've seen GW release were Blood Bowl and the original Necromunda.

 

However, fixing 7th could have been less radical, and open more minds towards the system than giving us Age of Guilliman with more glaring flaws and abuses open, which require the flood of FAQs etc that we've seen.

 

On your mention of taking the Tac squad instead of the Drop Pod I wonder, how many troop choices do you use and has that changed from 7th to 8th? 

I'm enjoying that every thing in the index is a choice I am happy to consider now.  I've focused on troop slots as my go to for every edition I've played orks, I've never bothered with a Nobs mob until the end of last edition, high points game and nothing to loose. Now I have used them and was impressed that they didn't feel like a bad choice for their points. 

It's nice to not feel like I have to rely on my troop choices. I am so far only using 3 or 4 Depending on who I plan to play and what they are playing. In 7th I had to bring the strongest possible list to every game. I don't really enjoy putting list together so this has been a nice change for me.

 

Until 8th edition I was sure I would never play another pickup game.  (Not really sure if that's important.)

[Honda]

MOD VOICE: Ok, I think we're done here. The "civility" line has been crossed and this topic can just sit in stasis for awhile.