Are miniatures getting "cartoonish"?

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

 

Sweet jesus that guy on the left is the most boring mini I have ever seen. It looks so static and uninspired. It reminds me of the 2nd ed starter minis, not the detail but the pose. 

I do think that there are aspects of models that are getting a little bit cartoonish in places. The giant nurgle icon on the back of the lord of contagion springs immediately to mind as being more than a little out of character for the guy. Here is a soldier who is meant to exemplify everything that is the death guard (i know that there may be other nurgle worshippers who also hold the rank, but I'll stick with DG for this explanation): stoic, unadorned, utilitarian and ruthlessly effective - so he walks around with this on his back:

 

https://flic.kr/p/YeArCS

 

Its a very nice bit of modelling, but it does seem to be a tad silly for a guy who's legion hated ostentation and marched to war in bare ceramite.

 

Now, that being said, I do think that one of the joys of this hobby is that you can remove things that you don't like. ergo, here is my Lord of Contagion sans icon, which I think looks better.

 

https://flic.kr/p/YuEeQ8

 

The paintjob may also have something to do with the idea of things being cartoonish. But as with everything in this regard, its a very subjective thing.

Aye, looks much better without that stupid thingymajig. Looks like a proper bruiser now, sometimes less is more. 

[A D-B]

 

Have you seen the old school models, specifically goff rockers and the old noise marines?

the 2ed rock NM were in style and not over the top. If you want to compare an over done model to a normal one put the terminator chaplain next to the primaris one.

 

Well it is?

 

only it isn't IW replcace muated part with machine parts. AL was never know for it's mutation, neither were the NL till ADB started doing them. 

 

There are more mutated Night Lords in previously published works than in any of my novels, dude. This is categorically not something attributable to me, nor is it even something I've ever seen anyone bring up before in any number of reviews, interviews, or forum posts over, like, almost a decade.

[Prot]

I think it's more the paintjobs and less the models.

 

There was this one picture of a new Deathguard Terminator that just looked too goofy even for me. He had a cracked helmet with a silly , cartoonish, white toothed grin. Thankfully I've seen the model without that anime head and it's much better. I do prefer stoic looking Chaos to goofy Chaos but accept that I am a dying breed as the 40k line seems to be moving closer to cartoon and further from grim dark.

 

Centurion Jay, those Deathguard you found are a perfect example though of the power of the painter.

 

Does anyone remember the initial reaction to the first white dwarf leak of Mortarion? He got a lot of hate for the over saturated, photoshopped 'my little pony' look. Then a day later a different picture came out and most seemed relieved.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 Plus, for the most part, the actual sculpting and design work is pretty top-notch, and we aren't getting any objectively badly sculpted models. I'd like to see someone try and claim the older Bloodthirster was better than the new plastic one for example.

 

 

I'll be the odd one out then.

 

Not going to quibble about the level of detail they're whacking on the minis these days, personally I'd like a bit less bling and more 'clean', but that's personal taste. However I'd actually say that a bunch of recent models are actually worse than the ones they replace/older styles. Primarily it's issues like transport and gaming use. While I don't own either, I'd be far more confident putting an old metal Bloodthirster in a carry case and taking it on the bus than the new one, There's an increasingly large amount of easily breakable sticky out bits on too many modern sculpts, or far too much model for the base contact, creating very top heavy models that'll come away from the base too easily. Granted, most of the worst offenders are in AoS (like the flying Stormcast dudes, the amount they wobble around the scrolls attaching them to their bases is just awful) for the time being, but it's starting to creep into 40k too in places.

 

Yes they look nice, but they seem to be designed as static exhibits to be viewed, rather than practical gaming pieces to be transported and pushed around tables.

[OnboardG1]

The breakables are a pain. I can't fit a lot of standard size minis into standard 28mm figure cells because of it. I guess this is why GW went to clamshells with their cases and everyone else went pick and pluck or custom.

[Kinstryfe]

I've got to say, I really think this all boils down to when you were introduced to the hobby. Back in the days of 40k 2nd/WHFB 5th, humor was a big part of the hobby. References to nurgle being a carnival-esque god, skinks with names that were all puns on itsy-bitsy or teeny-weeny, the whole company was just dripping with dry, tongue-in-cheek British humour. Orks weren't giant feral murder-fungus, they were bright green soccer hooligans, Daemons were WEIRD, lovecraftian creatures you didn't know if you wanted to kill or take home with you. "Grim-Dark" was spoken with a little eye-roll, because it meant "over the top darkness for the sake of being over the top."

 

Somewhere along the way things changed, and people starting taking Grim-Dark seriously. Kharne was no longer so crazy he'd kill his own men lol, he was instead BRUTAL AND HARDCORE!!!ELEVEN!!!! Orks became the aforementioned psychic murder-fungus. I mean, come on, they use their teeth as currency for Khorne's sake. At some point the joke started getting ignored and people started embracing Grim-Dark as a serious thing. The over the top became woefully droll and mundane, and the end result is now that GW is starting to inject a little of that humor and in many cases original theme into new models and the setting some people like me love the return to old form, and some people hate that the seriousness is waning in their hobby.

 

The interesting thing is that neither side is right or wrong, because 30 years of the hobby has embraced both the "lol it's sooo Grim-Dark" and the "zomgsofething GRIM-DARK!!!" at differing phases and editions. The best part of this is that newer models can often be made to represent either philosophy, as seen by the examples of Death Guard posted earlier. If your Death Guard are grim stoics with bodies putrifying and leaking from their ancient armour as they advance silently across the battlefield, silent but for the drone of flies and a chanting of numbers as they tally the enemies who succumb to Nurgle's plagues, you can easily chop off the silly parts and do it. If your Death Guard are paradoxically jovial and invigorayed, full of the love of grandfather Nurgle even as they fall apart and rot, you can build your own Plague Carnival with those same minis. So everyone gets to be right, and your modifications and painting are going to influence the mood of your models as much as the sculpting does.

 

tl:dr, both sides are historically correct, and nobody is wrong, so just try to enjoy your hobby.

[Bryan Blaire]

If people are trying to only define "cartoon" as "kiddish" or "not grim-dark", I would counter this with reminding people that Spawn, Akira, Renaissance, and Flowers of Evil are all cartoons as well. Archer is also, and while funny and high-contrast, is definitely not kid friendly.

 

So maybe better establishing exactly what you are trying to say would be better.

[Antarius]

 

I'd lean towards what the OP said. There definitely is a change of style towards something else, something that brings Age of Sigmar to mind. Cartoonish may be the right word (especially with the new Death Guard models), as they seem to be moving in the direction of a more generic/fantasy aesthetic (again, some Deathguard, Guilliman, Primaris brining to my mind Starcraft). Plus, there's a lot of 'excess' in design, both 'aesthetic-wise' (as in the looks of the models) and 'game-wise' (as with the gun on top of a gun and stacks of rocket launchers on the Repulsor). Generally, I'm not a fan of what's going on right now and would like the new releases to be 'more of the same' or 'more conservative'.

 

Then again, this is my very subjective opinion based on rather superficial observations of what's been going on in the hobby.

Uhm, AoS is moving away from generic fantasy, and into a more "we can do what we want" type of models.

 Indeed. I think the problem is that "generic" and "cartoony" is thrown around when people basically mean "I don't like it". And just to be perfectly clear, it's OK not to like something - it's just that saying "childish", "cartoony", "less grimdark" and "generic" doesn't generally lead to productive discussion, unless people take the time to elaborate a bit.

When it comes to the charge of newer models being "generic", I must confess that I kinda roll my eyes a bit. I mean, the basic Primaris Marines might be open to that charge (incidentally they're also far less "cartoony" and more "realistic" than pretty much any earlier GW model, but that's another story). Everything else they do practically oozes unique GW-specific character. Literally no other company makes minis that look like that. You might not LIKE the new direction, which is obviously your prerogative, but it's literally the complete opposite of generic.

 

 

Well, let's try to actually critique the models instead of trying to reduce our thoughts down to a single word. What is it specifically that we don't like? Why don't we like it?

Exactly. If we actually want to discuss these things, I think we need to be prepared to elaborate a bit more, otherwise we risk coming across as glib and/or unproductive (I tend to fall into the same trap, so it's not a charge aimed at anyone in particular).

 

As for the whole "aimed at kids" angle, though, I gotta say it makes my head ache with how strange and weirdly hostile it seems. I mean, I've been in this hobby for 25 years this christmas and I've got a few years 'til I hit forty. How old were people when they started and when was the hobby not "aimed at kids"? And what exactly have we got against "kids", come to think of it? Kids aren't stupid and they're not incapable of liking cool stuff, nor does "kids" liking something, especially a fictional setting and small plastic d00dz, make that thing less cool.

To me, GW's settings have always had a certain transcendent "magic something" that make them appeal to people across age groups (and continue to appeal to me, as I've grown older). The darkness of the settings are far from "mature" in that regard; don't get me wrong her, I love the "dark" aspect of the settings and I'd argue that it's sort of "ageless", but if anything the "grimdark" is MORE "childish".

 

As for the newer models, I tend to find the models themselves vast improvements over their earlier incarnations, but the current paintjobs/photo presentations are kinda offputting to me. Likewise, I enjoy the fact that there's a whole lot of details on the newer minis, but I tend to shave them down a bit, as I often find them a bit "busy". I still prefer that the extra detail is there though, because now we have more options :)

I think my case in point here would be Mortarion. I'm gonna leave off a couple of chains, all the nurglings and probably the plague censer thing over his head, because I think it will make for a better and more "grim", imposing looking model and silhouette. But just a few years ago, I'd probably have been stuck with whatever clumsy metal abomination they put out, simply because assembling it in the first place would be enough of a pain to stop me from doing a lot of conversion work.

The previous incarnations of plague marines are also a good example of what I'm very happy they've moved away from, even if I tend to be more in the seriouz grimdark!!1 camp. They're a real obvious case of "less is less", in my opinion. And the studio paintjob back then was - again, in my opinion - every bit as offputting as the current crop. Flat, darkish greens that just make everything meld together and obscure detail may be grimdark, but it doesn't look good on the table.

[Adeptus]

I think one of the biggest problems is that the studio paint jobs are deliberately restrained in terms of technique and ability, because they don't want to intimidate people. They're still high quality paint jobs, but they're very attainable results. The new plague marines are a good example of models that will shine when given a paint job that breaks away from the base, shade, layer, highlight formula.

[DaBoiKyknos]

I think I kind of get, what you mean, but... It doesn´t ruin the fun for me. I mean the new (40k)Ahriman does look better, but I still wish, that he didn´t have that huge magic-dust-energy thing coming out of his arm.

But yes, as a lot of people said, it had always been cartoonish. The first miniatures have definitly been more children-cartoon.

I mean, look at this stuff! :D

http://wh40k-de.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/d/d8/Boss_Bemalt_5.JPG

 

They probably had a little more laid-back time and I can somehow understand people who like e.g. older Dark Angels more, who didn´t look that much monk-like. But with the Space Marines of any sort you still buy older models from ebay or use the standard kit and paint them in DA colours in this example.

So I guess, I am aware of your issue, I just don´t see it that much as a problem.

[Evil Eye]

 

 

 Plus, for the most part, the actual sculpting and design work is pretty top-notch, and we aren't getting any objectively badly sculpted models. I'd like to see someone try and claim the older Bloodthirster was better than the new plastic one for example.

 

 

I'll be the odd one out then.

 

Not going to quibble about the level of detail they're whacking on the minis these days, personally I'd like a bit less bling and more 'clean', but that's personal taste. However I'd actually say that a bunch of recent models are actually worse than the ones they replace/older styles. Primarily it's issues like transport and gaming use. While I don't own either, I'd be far more confident putting an old metal Bloodthirster in a carry case and taking it on the bus than the new one, There's an increasingly large amount of easily breakable sticky out bits on too many modern sculpts, or far too much model for the base contact, creating very top heavy models that'll come away from the base too easily. Granted, most of the worst offenders are in AoS (like the flying Stormcast dudes, the amount they wobble around the scrolls attaching them to their bases is just awful) for the time being, but it's starting to creep into 40k too in places.

 

Yes they look nice, but they seem to be designed as static exhibits to be viewed, rather than practical gaming pieces to be transported and pushed around tables.

 

That's a fair point, though in my experience that's been a problem long before this new age of model design. The plastic Chaos Spawn for just one example- the various protuberances that you can put on their backs just love to snap off at the connection points at the touch of a feather. And don't get me started on big metal models like the Hive Tyrant, which unless heavily pinned and glued with industrial strength adhesive, WILL fall apart at the slightest provocation.

 

Dear god I hated that model.

[Bung]

Personly i feel a difference between the GW miniature designers and those from other companies.

Its like GW has 3D designers that try to be artists while every other company has artists that got trained with a new tool.

There is a point for me when stuff is enough and when its to much.

Yes, you can cover a whole miniature in skulls but somewhere is a point when its not funny anymore. Khârn is an example for that and some plastics are a step backwards. Deamonettes as an example. The Juan Diaz white metal ones had a certain asthetic which was completly lost with the plastic release.

The other problem for me is that those wacky miniatures lack the wacky rules like the old drunken dwarfs or Slayers.

Thats a part why those miniatures look a bit cartoonish.

Cartoonish as in over the top not to take serious like Animaniacs.

[Scribe]

To the OP question, yes, but its a pendulum. It swings back and forth to cater to the vibe GW is putting out at the time. Late 3rd to end of 5th was probably the 'grim' period. After that, we march towards the he-man, over the top things like the plastic Rob.

[Xenith]

Older models were less cartoonish?

 

*Looks at original Vlad and Isabella Von Carstein models*

 

Sure.

 

The angry face Mk7 helm is about as cartoonish as you can get. It's literally frowning on old 2nd ed metals. It got less pronounced later on.

 

GW are moving from the cartoonish to the 'walking reliquary' type models, which is fitting to the background.

[Scribe]

Older models were less cartoonish?

 

*Looks at original Vlad and Isabella Von Carstein models*

 

Sure.

 

The angry face Mk7 helm is about as cartoonish as you can get. It's literally frowning on old 2nd ed metals. It got less pronounced later on.

 

GW are moving from the cartoonish to the 'walking reliquary' type models, which is fitting to the background.

 

We can all take examples from any era to reinforce our positions, but when I look at the latest models, Rob, Mort, the new Death Guard. I'm thinking He-Man era toys of my childhood.

 

When I look at the metal Typhus, metal Archaon, metal Lemartes (the newer one)...those appeal to me more, and look less cartoonish.

[Bryan Blaire]

I would like someone to explain to me in specific terms, not just "it makes me feel", the critique that relates that this model (Mortarion) and this model (He-Man or He-Man/Skeletor), or maybe even these models (various GI Joe toys).

 

I'll give the argument a fair shake, but there's going to need real comparitive details explaining how they are similar.

[Scribe]

I dont know that I can really explain it. Its a 'feel' thing.

 

I dont even mean in a disparaging way, its the same way I feel about AOS art direction in comparison to 8th WHFB. They are very clearly not the same, and I like one, more than the other.

 

Its Rob GW vs Rob FW. Its one of pose, of 'heroic' vs ... stoic?

 

I mean this is actually kind of cool, in a throw back way to my youth.

 

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/51b3dc8ee4b051b96ceb10de/t/53e7c178e4b0dce0cf47ba9e/1407697277854/Glorious+HE-MAN+Fan+Art+Series+by+Dave-Wilkins1

 

It reminds me very much though of 

 

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/BLWritingDarkImpArt.jpg

 

and the various pieces that have come recently, instead of the older, grittier, art of 3.5-5th

 

http://shrani.si/files/sm10nze1.jpg

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dCk-f_fiOPs/Ub6ariILPcI/AAAAAAAAAww/WJOcGxsIhqQ/s400/Dark+Eldar+raider.jpg

 

I mean Rob (https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99120101177_TriumvirateofthePrimarch02.jpg) fits in more with the He-Man picture, than he does anything else.

 

Its completely subjective, but yes, the pose, the dimensions, the color, it all has a more cartoonish feel, to me.

[Bryan Blaire]

But none of those examples are models, which is what we are talking about in the thread... the title is are miniatures getting cartoonish, and your own statement was that the models are reminding you of the He-Man toys, and like I said, specifics, not "I Feels". The models themselves aren't the issue then, it's all the feels they engender, which could be a product of almost anything.

 

Serious question: is the reason people consider the black and white art "grittier" or "grimdark" specifically because it is black and white? Would you still consider the art the same way if it had been completely produced in bright colors from the 2nd Edition book covers?

[Scribe]

Well, the art and models these days are VERY closely linked....so its hard to break the link for me.

 

When I show my wife some of the more recent models she, and I quote, says "Looks like a toy".

 

Thats not the result I used to get from models as recent as the Lemartes resculpt, the newer Emperors Champion (understated, simple, magnificent) and things like it.

 

Even the FW Primarch's do not bring about that result, but GW Rob? Honestly you cannot tell me that doesnt look like a cartoonish toy in comparison. Its the proportions, the scale of it. 

 

The coloured versions of the black and whites (and nearly the whole of 8th WHFB...like honestly their art direction was on point) are still gritty. 

 

I'm sorry Bryan, I'm no art major (or minor) to be able to articulate exactly what I'm trying to convey. One has more cartoonlike dimensions? I dont know. The feel is just off to me.

[Ascanius]

I think one of the biggest problems is that the studio paint jobs are deliberately restrained in terms of technique and ability, because they don't want to intimidate people. They're still high quality paint jobs, but they're very attainable results. The new plague marines are a good example of models that will shine when given a paint job that breaks away from the base, shade, layer, highlight formula.

 

One of the things that I don't like, but understand, is the way the team paint models for the website and White Dwarf - which is to say, they paint in an accessible style, as you say, but they also make choices about how to highlight that make for clear, standout photography but rub me the wrong way in terms of how they'd look on the shelf or the table.

 

For instance:

 

 

Those aren't really highlights, because most of them are actually just outlines. Painting the edge of every plate a lighter colour, regardless of its orientation or the position of an imagined light source, makes for really vivid photography . . . but doesn't necessarily look right to me.

[Scribe]

See, other than the fact they are grotesquely larger than 'normal' marines from the last decade...I like those. Its not that I am against bright colours, its the sense of proportion I think that is being lost, and perhaps I just hate Rob's new model...

[CrimsonReign]

in the same box as Bobby G is Cawl

 

while being absolutely covered in bits and bobs noones complained

 

its not the extra-ness that people seem to be complaining about - its when the extra stuff isn't to their taste...

[Antarius]

See, other than the fact they are grotesquely larger than 'normal' marines from the last decade...I like those. Its not that I am against bright colours, its the sense of proportion I think that is being lost, and perhaps I just hate Rob's new model...

I won't presume to tell you how to feel about the minis, but the ones in the picture have much less cartoony proportions than earlier marines (their heads, hands and weapons are much more realistically proportioned than other marines).

 

I think I get what you mean about the "toy look", but I honestly think it's more to do with the paintjobs than the minis in most cases. This also explains why so many people (including myself) tend to have less favorable impressions when minis are previewed and then end up liking them when they are seen "in the flesh".

[Scribe]

They are less cartoon like in proportions, agreed, but they are out of scale. Shrink the whole package down to the appropriate size, and I would build an army out of them. :p

[Zodd1888]

To much jibber jabbing by people about what's cartoony, what isn't, and what it means contextually to the critique.

 

Let's get some specifics:

 

- Overly vibrant color schemes (paint specific, not model specific)

- Over-stylized models (Robby B has been shown as an example of blinged out, Tommy the Ten-Tacular DG model less resembling Astartes versus a gutted corpse is another)

 

These two items can result in breaking a viewers 40k reality. At the end of the day color is your choice and media representation will define what colors are used. An over accessorized/stylized

Robbie B who looks like he just got out of Claire's Boutique (place for cheap accessories for hair, fake gold bracelets, etc.) is a model issue. Model issues start long before paint meets pallet.

 

If you've got beef with a model specifically tell us, or GW, what it is. An artist hears cartoon and thinks style, not necessarily substance. Robbie B's face definetly aint a toon.

 

That said, I dig it all. GW fan boy maybe, but nothing I've seen screams bad. Only gross. Nurgle is gross.