Are miniatures getting "cartoonish"?

[Sugarlessllama]

I wouldn't say that they are cartoonish, I would say that they are over detailed. But some people like that. Me? I actually really like the goofy older sculpts.

[Isengrin]

This hang-up with the term 'cartoonish' is beginning to really impede this discussion. I don't care about semantics here.

 

Looking at Age of Sigmar as a point of reference, GW made a clear and conscious decision to depart from the previous warhammer fantasy aesthetics and establish a brand-new look. So, is the same process playing out in 40k? From what I've seen so far, I'm inclined to say no. The new Death Guard models do look more clownish than threatening and while Nurgle always maintained a jovial aspect, they slightly missed the mark by giving too much weight to the funny stuff in my opinion. Although Blightkings from fantasy share many details with them, I just think they are less over-the-top and visually work better for this reason. But they didn't completely overhaul the idea of what a plague marine is supposed to look like, nor did they jettison the whole concept of marines with the introduction of primaris in favour of something that looks like a child's toy. This is all more of an adaption of old, well-defined ideas and designs. Jes Goodwin didn't spend two years or so sketching primaris marines just for the hell of it. 

 

Now, about my issues with the new models - Death Guard mostly, because they are, as the latest release, fresh in my mind. I mean, all this is highly subjective of course and those plague marines have a lot going for them, with better (not perfect) proportions being one important factor among others. By all accounts they seem to be well received, so GW must be doing something right and I'm looking forward to seeing them on the table (if only because they measure up to my up-scaled Night Lords). But I wouldn't buy them or play them as they are because of their design. I like my marines (or any 40k model for that matter) brutal and menacing, as if they were ripped straight out of the artwork of older editions. Mortarion comes pretty close in that regard and I really like him, but the rest falls short. Except for the plague surgeon, there's not one head I would use for a conversion, because they are either unremarkable, or trying too hard to look evil to the point of being more of caricature, or just plain silly. The belly plates are a visually interesting addition if used selectively, but not on almost every model. The plates also can't hide the fact that plague marines still lack an abdomen. Some weapons are over-sized and clumsy even after the re-scaling of the marines. The thigh gaps on some models are enormous. I always liked mutated chaos marines sprouting teeth on their armour, but not here. Some poses don't work for me...I think that's pretty much it for now.

 

It will be interesting to see what the next releases look like. Until then it's too early to ascertain if there is a trend toward a goofy/childish/cartoonish (whatever you want to call it) aesthetic. As I've written above, I don't think that will be the case, but it's really just speculation at this point.

 

P.S.: While there were always hits and misses among new releases, I really can't say anything good about Guilliman with the main problem being a disconnect between motif and motive. His appearance just doesn't tie in with his character.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Isengrin

[Ascanius]

I'm not sure I agree with your last line there, Isengrin, since Guilliman was a) already called "the Avenging Son" in M31 and b) understandably angry about both the survival of Chaos and the state of the Imperium in M41. I don't love the model myself, more for the pose than anything else, and I wouldn't use the angry bare head, but I don't think there's anything about it that rings false to Guilliman's character. Even if the ornate armour isn't what Guilliman might commission for himself, it seems appropriate to what Cawl might craft for the demigod son of the Omnissiah.

 

I can certainly see the argument that Guilliman shouldn't have been designed to be so visually tied to the Gathering Storm narrative, especially since none of the other eight models in the triumvirate sets are particularly "of the moment" in the same way . . . but even so, I think it would have been disappointing to have a 40K version of the "master general ordering his forces forward" pose from the 30K model.

 

The pose is the only real sticking point, for me, because if you want to talk about toys, 40K Guilliman is posed just like you might a He-Man action figure to try and get it to stand up straight in an action pose despite being top-heavy. I know what they were going for, but I don't like it at all.

[Adeptus]

I loathe the resurrection of G-man in the lore, but I actually really dig his model.

[Ishagu]

The model looks really great in person. I think the official GW pictures don't do him justice. Anyways, aside from Guilliman the most recent Marine releases are the most realistic and least "cartoonish" models released for the faction yet.

[Biscuittzz]

Totally agree with the comparisons with Blizzard/WoW/MMO's. The entire Death Guard release just screams Naxxramus to me. 

[Ascanius]

Interestingly, of course, there are plenty of recent models that can't be said to share the same design cues as the Death Guard, such as the Thousand Sons and Genestealer Cults, so it's not like it's some overwhelming new direction as opposed to something they're doing for the Death Guard specifically.

[Scribe]

Interestingly, of course, there are plenty of recent models that can't be said to share the same design cues as the Death Guard, such as the Thousand Sons and Genestealer Cults, so it's not like it's some overwhelming new direction as opposed to something they're doing for the Death Guard specifically.

 

Yeah, the GSC in particular looked great. I honestly upon further reflection think its my gag reflex when looking at Rob, that coloured a lot of my recent thoughts. :p

[Isengrin]

I'm not sure I agree with your last line there, Isengrin, since Guilliman was a) already called "the Avenging Son" in M31 and understandably angry about both the survival of Chaos and the state of the Imperium in M41. I don't love the model myself, more for the pose than anything else, and I wouldn't use the angry bare head, but I don't think there's anything about it that rings false to Guilliman's character. Even if the ornate armour isn't what Guilliman might commission for himself, it seems appropriate to what Cawl might craft for the demigod son of the Omnissiah.

 

I can certainly see the argument that Guilliman shouldn't have been designed to be so visually tied to the Gathering Storm narrative, especially since none of the other eight models in the triumvirate sets are particularly "of the moment" in the same way . . . but even so, I think it would have been disappointing to have a 40K version of the "master general ordering his forces forward" pose from the 30K model.

 

The pose is the only real sticking point, for me, because if you want to talk about toys, 40K Guilliman is posed just like you might a He-Man action figure to try and get it to stand up straight in an action pose despite being top-heavy. I know what they were going for, but I don't like it at all.

You raise a couple good points there, about which I've thought to some extent before I wrote my previous remark. The FW model does an excellent job of conveying Guilliman's character by using a multitude of straight lines, having his face framed by a high and rigid collar, and pretty much every other detail - from his pose to his power fist delicately placed on the scabbard - tells the story of an exceptional, controlled mind, whose fury is reined in and harnessed. Everything serves a purpose there and the sculpt reveals his emotions and character easily, yet maintains enough visual tension so that it remains interesting to look at even after a while.

 

Compared to that I think the plastic model is lacking in every way. It makes sense that Cawl would have crafted an armour for Guilliman, which he thought is appropriate for a primarch and is adorned accordingly. That's fine, but I'm missing the tension there. His new, bolted-on armour and the new universe he's thrown into are like an antithesis to what he was ten-thousand years ago, and they are now a prison with which he has to arrange himself. Guilliman is more or less a walking sarcophagus, brought back from death with iron will and xenos knowledge. There has to be some kind of tension, which belies his outward appearance of unity and reconciliation, like the fury of a tempest trying to break free from the shackles of duty, like dark and desperate thoughts brooding underneath a splendent armour, slowly uncoiling like a venomous serpent - all the contradictions in his newborn self are there waiting to be visually displayed. There's so much potential to shape the Guilliman of 40k into a riveting model. It just don't see it, and that's why I think his model doesn't do him and his character justice. I do agree with you wholeheartedly that it would have been disappointing to just get a remix of his pose of supreme commander, but they could have taken so many different roads with this character and the one they ended up with just doesn't do anything for me.

 

In addition to that, there are a few things about his face, pose, and proportions that don't work for me...but it's getting late now. 

 

Interestingly, of course, there are plenty of recent models that can't be said to share the same design cues as the Death Guard, such as the Thousand Sons and Genestealer Cults, so it's not like it's some overwhelming new direction as opposed to something they're doing for the Death Guard specifically.

Absolutely! Genestealer Cults was - along with Mechanicus - a compelling release and although most of my pet peeves about marines still apply to Thousand Sons, those are for the most part really nice models as well. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by Isengrin

[Ishagu]

Guilliman isn't a walking Sarcophagus btw. He can leave the armour without any ill effects to his health :-P

[Urriak Urruk]

The model looks really great in person. I think the official GW pictures don't do him justice. Anyways, aside from Guilliman the most recent Marine releases are the most realistic and least "cartoonish" models released for the faction yet.

 

I haven't actually seen Guilliman's model yet in person, but the proportions just look so wonky IMO. It looks like Megaman to me, so when people say "cartoony that is the model I point to.

 

Funny enough though the new Primaris are far better proportioned, and more realistic, than the old Astartes. So the idea that overall GW is adopting a "kid-friendly cartoony aesthetic" is one I don't really buy. GW's marketing has become a little more bright and optimistic in both painting and writing, but any hobbyist can fix that themselves by crafting their own paint schemes and narratives.

 

I'll leave this funny image I found;

 

[sarabando]

i think cartoonish is the wrong word to use, but some of their models are defo becoming more "chunky" in their aesthics. (really not a fan of the Primaris and new DG tenticle fetish)

[Robbienw]

Its funny how when people compare marine models with primaris marine models pictorially, they always select a crappy old 2 or 3 part push fit regular marine model, not a model from say the current tactical marine set, or the sternguard set....

Edited September 14, 2017 by Robbienw

[Volt]

 

Well it is?

 

only it isn't IW replcace muated part with machine parts. AL was never know for it's mutation, neither were the NL till ADB started doing them. WB were a legion of mini chaplains. Plus there is something like over doing it. The old plastics aged well [as old and as last last gen their models were], the new stuff is 3ed sculpted and more often then not they cram as much stuff on the models as possible, because if they do not the models look flat, and not in a good way. It is true for AoS models too.

 

Then you just use non chaos space marine models or Horus Heresy models for them. Chaos Space Marines are supposed to receive chaos boons, and even just one chaos boon can turn you into a hideous tenctacled, pulsating mutant. The Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion are outliers and can be easily supported by already-existing models. 

[MosesGunn]

I think the general upscaling of the models has something to do with this perception that they have become cartoonish. There's been a noticeable shift away from a 28mm standard across most lines, and while this is more prevalent in Sigmar models (compare the WFB Dwarf and Orc models to Duardin and Orruks), the Primaris and Death Guard are such a noticeable enlargement that they are no longer really in 28mm, thus the current discussion. While they've been upscaled to better represent the intended size of Marines that the development team want, they're pushing this weird zone between 32-40mm scale models.

 

I love the 28mm scale to work in, and in part I think this is why the Primaris release has had little appeal for me, as they've certainly increased in both height and width. They're a little too large for my personal taste, even if they are "scale accurate". Isn't the starter set Death Guard Lord on a 50mm base or something? That's MASSIVE. I think the Thousand Sons and Deathwatch releases hit a nice sweet spot for 28mm Marines for me, where characters like the Grand Master and Ahriman were a little larger than regular rank and file to make them pop.

Edited September 15, 2017 by MosesGunn

[Arkangilos]

They are still in 28mm... just because something is bigger doesn't mean it is no longer in scale. It means that they are bigger.

[Withershadow]

Yes, every 40k release progressively adopts more of the Age of Sigmar aesthetic, which is borderline World of Warcraft. At least 50% of the problem are the bright studio paintjobs. Paint makes all the difference.

 

There is always FW, however.

[m0nolith]

Yes, every 40k release progressively adopts more of the Age of Sigmar aesthetic, which is borderline World of Warcraft. At least 50% of the problem are the bright studio paintjobs. Paint makes all the difference.

 

There is always FW, however.

Because of this, every day I end you eyeing the Death Korps more and more.

[HeritorA]

Yes they are - new DG models - are childish caricatures on a CSM.

[D3L]

Yes they are - new DG models - are childish caricatures on a CSM.

I think we're just the old guard

 

the new kids want easy to build easily identifiable heroes and villains, to me they're Saturday morning cartoony, (nothing says that more to me, than the imagery around the new tanks, they could have rolled right out of MASK), to the people born later, they're identifiable as the subjectively over the top DoTA and so on

 

simply no one's going to win this 'discussion', the only guarantees are that there's going to be an opinion of various grading for every frater who doesn't like them, and one for those who believe GW can do no wrong

 

 

[Silentz]

I think the miniatures are deliberately being updated to make them look more in keeping with the widespread 21st century geek chic - particularly popular video games like Destiny, Overwatch, League of Legends etc. Yes, the style of these are more cartoony and I think that's coming through into many of the miniatures. 

 

I think they are also working hard to strike the balance between cartoony and grimdark. They don't want comedy characters, but I feel they do want a more up to date look.

 

We need to always remember:  product sales and new customer acquisition will always be more important than the lore. 

 

It doesn't matter how precious the lore is to you, mister 40 year old loyal customer of 20 years... if it means the company aren't appealing to new customers and selling their product range, it will get retconned/deleted/ignored/abused. 

[D3L]

 

We need to always remember:  product sales and new customer acquisition will always be more important than the lore. 

 

It doesn't matter how precious the lore is to you, mister 40 year old loyal customer of 20 years... if it means the company aren't appealing to new customers and selling their product range, it will get retconned/deleted/ignored/abused. 

 

True of any fantasy world, wise words

[Robbienw]

I think Silentz is right.  Some of the new Primaris units, particularly the Reivers and the Agressors, look like they come straight out of first person shooter type computer game.

[Evil Eye]

I personally quite like the Reivers myself. I agree they are a little FPS-ish but I like that- they're a nice mix between the gothic, ostentatious and overdone armour of the 41st millennium and more realistic, actually mobile armour you'd see in an FPS, or for that matter the battlefield of the future. I dunno, I think the blending of "tacticool" and grimdark came out very well with them. It's like if the Astartes were given a copy of Halo and told "Work from this". Plus the skull helmets are just damn cool.

 

The Aggressors are a bit more silly, but hey, that's what conversions are for. And I don't think it would need a lot of conversions to look a lot better. They look better than the Centurions (and even they look much better in person than in photos).

 

As far as them taking inspiration from those pesky vidya games, remember that 40K has been taking inspiration from popular culture since forever. It's just back in the late 80s, that culture was heavy metal and movies like Aliens and the like (disclaimer: I am only 21 and thus have no idea what 80s Britain was like) and video games were too primitive to really take inspiration from. And considering things like Warcraft and Starcraft were heavily inspired by Warhammer and 40K (Warcraft was originally going to be a Warhammer Fantasy game!) it's really just coming full circle. Ideas are very rarely original, especially in wargaming; most non-historical wargames have taken inspiration from other stuff, notably 40K (multiple companies make games which are literally just WHFB/40K except with subjectively "better" rules and generic serial-numbers-filed-off fluff) so it's not like GW is some kind of standout case in terms of pilfering ideas, they're just the biggest and the best known so they get most of the flak.

 

And finally, this is a modelling based hobby, and these are multi-part plastic kits. If you don't like how they look then it's easy enough to convert them. I'd understand the upset a bit more if these were low-parts-count monopose metal models, but in this golden age of miniature engineering that's not a problem so much anymore.

[Shockmaster]

Grimdark & 40k is meant to be so called cartoony, a shame many at GW forgot that themselves during the 00s but nice to see a return with a modern twist to the original aesthetic of the setting.